If you have to wear a mask while cruising .... would you?

[K32682]

40 minutes ago, nosapphire said:

Masks alone do not stop the virus. They are considered by the majority of professionals to slow the spread, but even if everybody always wears a mask (correctly) that alone is no guarantee of a clear voyage,

And since so many people pull their mask down every time they want to talk to somebody...........

 

The mandatory use of masks and strict enforcement reduces the risk but not to zero.  The only way to guarantee not acquiring coronavirus on a cruise is not to take a cruise in the first place.  Even with masks I have little confidence that either the cruise line or my fellow passengers care enough about my health that I'd risk cramming myself into an crowded environment that shares many qualities of a long term care home.  

[ontheweb]

11 hours ago, evandbob said:

 

Sorry if I gave you that impression.  I always wear a seat belt when I'm driving or in the front seat since 1967, sometimes when a pax in the rear maybe not.  Perhaps that is the best way to describe it.

 

If there does not appear to be a need to wear a mask, say bicycling or outside walking, I don't.  Inside a store shopping, yes. Walking down a crowded street, yes, it's on, walking by myself, nope. I won't eat in an indoor or outdoor restaurant yet, and I won't go cruising if a mask is required to board.  I'll just avoid the hotspots.  If I happen to wind up in one anyway, I'll wear it immediately.

 

Stay safe!

 

 

We are about the same. We carry our masks while walking and only put them on when someone is near and cannot be avoided. We cross the street a lot. LOL And of course wear them in stores.

 

We did go out to eat last week on our wedding anniversary. We had a reservation on a deck in a restaurant. Before we walked in DW checked out the deck and saw that though there were other tables, they were all spaced far apart. (Funny that last year we were also there on the deck on our anniversary and were the only table seated on the deck. I wonder if a higher percentage of those willing to be seated at a restaurant now want to be outside.)

[evandbob]

7 hours ago, SelectSys said:

 

When you post very strong claims, you should try and back them up with at least some data.  As far as I can tell, the only evidence to support your assertion that the USA is the worst are the use of italics and underlying of your core assertion.

 

Why not start by showing me a story from a reputable source, similar to FT,  that suggests undercoating of COVID is off by a factor of 3 anywhere in the US.  Yes, CA had/has a problem with test result counting in their system but that's different in not really wanting a comprehensive count.  Since the new stories have died down, I tend to think the problems in counting have largely been solved.

https://www.governing.com/now/Tech-Issues-Have-Hindered-Californias-COVID-Case-Counting.html

 

I would think Korea is pretty good on counting but I haven't looked into it.   I could see India having big problems keeping tabs on the  1 billion people at the low end of their society from an economic perspective.  They could really have a devastating experience ahead.

 

https://time.com/5880585/india-coronavirus-impact/

"As of Aug. 18, India has officially recorded more than 2.7 million cases of COVID-19, putting it third in the world behind the U.S. and Brazil. But India is on track to overtake them both. “I fully expect that at some point, unless things really change course, India will have more cases than any other place in the world,” says Dr. Ashish Jha, director of Harvard’s Global Health Institute. With a population of 1.3 billion, “there is a lot of room for exponential growth.”

I was just being lazy by asking anyone to google under reporting, but since you insist:

 

https://thehill.com/changing-america/well-being/medical-advances/505409-coronavirus-cases-may-be-widely-underreported

 

https://www.statnews.com/2020/07/21/cdc-study-actual-covid-19-cases/

 

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7275155/

 

https://www.mic.com/p/coronavirus-cases-could-be-massively-underreported-a-cdc-study-found-29674436

 

That's only from the 1st page, see I'm still lazy.  It's illogical to claim that there is under-reporting in one country and ignore the same type of allegations in other countries.  That's an unfair argument and non-rational.

 

Basic law of algebra:  what you do to one side of the equation, you have to do to the other side.  Applies to common sense debate as well.

Edited August 23, 2020 by evandbob

[sverigecruiser]

13 hours ago, cruisemom42 said:

In the US as well I suspect COVID deaths are under-reported by far.

 

 

In Sweden I think that COVID deaths are over-reported. Lots of very old people have been infected when they died but many of them probably died because of other things than COVID. Maybe COVID made them die quicker but wasn't the main cause of their death.  Shall that count as a COVID death? 

[SelectSys]

2 hours ago, evandbob said:

I was just being lazy by asking anyone to google under reporting, but since you insist:

 

https://thehill.com/changing-america/well-being/medical-advances/505409-coronavirus-cases-may-be-widely-underreported

 

https://www.statnews.com/2020/07/21/cdc-study-actual-covid-19-cases/

 

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7275155/

 

https://www.mic.com/p/coronavirus-cases-could-be-massively-underreported-a-cdc-study-found-29674436

 

That's only from the 1st page, see I'm still lazy.  It's illogical to claim that there is under-reporting in one country and ignore the same type of allegations in other countries.  That's an unfair argument and non-rational.

 

Basic law of algebra:  what you do to one side of the equation, you have to do to the other side.  Applies to common sense debate as well.

 

Good job! You looked up some information.   I never stated under counting of COVID isn't a world wide problem unique to either Mexico or the US.  Here is a link:

https://www.news-medical.net/news/20200710/Researchers-estimate-global-undercounting-of-COVID-19-cases.aspx

"From the time trends recorded, they found that during March, April and May, European countries detected anywhere between about 5% to 86% of cases, 6% to 100%, and 11% to 86%, respectively. To achieve this, the number of tests per new case detected was about 3 to 76, 3 to 832, and 12 to 1,334, respectively"

 

 

My question for was for US deaths to be under reported by a factor of 3 like was suggested by the FT for Mexico.  Your claim is that the US is the absolute worst with respect to COVID.  I still see no evidence to support your claim based on the data.  

Edited August 23, 2020 by SelectSys

[cruisemom42]

2 hours ago, sverigecruiser said:

 

In Sweden I think that COVID deaths are over-reported. Lots of very old people have been infected when they died but many of them probably died because of other things than COVID. Maybe COVID made them die quicker but wasn't the main cause of their death.  Shall that count as a COVID death? 

 

I'm no expert in how cause of death is determined, but I would guess there are certain rules to be followed. For example, if someone had a pre-existing condition whereby reasonable deduction and past history suggest that the condition alone would not have caused the death, then COVID would perhaps be considered the causative event.

 

In other words, you could be diagnosed with COPD, a long-term chronic condition, but let's say in the person's case it was unlikely to result in their immediate death (e.g., in the next month or months). If they become infected with COVID and die, I would think this would be considered to be a death due to the virus.

 

If it is the other way around, my guess is that COVID is listed as a "contributing condition".  

 

But again, no real idea how this is actually mandated either in the US or in Sweden....

 

[sverigecruiser]

43 minutes ago, cruisemom42 said:

 

I'm no expert in how cause of death is determined, but I would guess there are certain rules to be followed. For example, if someone had a pre-existing condition whereby reasonable deduction and past history suggest that the condition alone would not have caused the death, then COVID would perhaps be considered the causative event.

 

In other words, you could be diagnosed with COPD, a long-term chronic condition, but let's say in the person's case it was unlikely to result in their immediate death (e.g., in the next month or months). If they become infected with COVID and die, I would think this would be considered to be a death due to the virus.

 

If it is the other way around, my guess is that COVID is listed as a "contributing condition".  

 

But again, no real idea how this is actually mandated either in the US or in Sweden....

 

 

I absolutely agree with you.

[Aquahound]

1 hour ago, cruisemom42 said:

 

I'm no expert in how cause of death is determined, but I would guess there are certain rules to be followed. For example, if someone had a pre-existing condition whereby reasonable deduction and past history suggest that the condition alone would not have caused the death, then COVID would perhaps be considered the causative event.

 

In other words, you could be diagnosed with COPD, a long-term chronic condition, but let's say in the person's case it was unlikely to result in their immediate death (e.g., in the next month or months). If they become infected with COVID and die, I would think this would be considered to be a death due to the virus.

 

 

Yes, that is happening, but it gets worse.

 

I can't speak for the whole country but numerous states are counting ALL positive COVID tests on deceased as COVID deaths.  One of the most egregious is car crash victims being classified as COVID deaths due to a positive test.  Supposedly, they are stopping this practice in some states, but I don't know for sure.  

 

Furthermore, if a single person takes multiple tests....say, 3....and those multiple tests come back positive, the stats show 3 positive tests, regardless of them being on the same person.  

 

[pc_load_letter]

14 minutes ago, Aquahound said:

 

Yes, that is happening, but it gets worse.

 

I can't speak for the whole country but numerous states are counting ALL positive COVID tests on deceased as COVID deaths.  One of the most egregious is car crash victims being classified as COVID deaths due to a positive test.  Supposedly, they are stopping this practice in some states, but I don't know for sure.  

 

Furthermore, if a single person takes multiple tests....say, 3....and those multiple tests come back positive, the stats show 3 positive tests, regardless of them being on the same person.  

 

 

Right, none of these death numbers can be trusted.

 

https://wpde.com/news/nation-world/man-who-died-in-motorcycle-crash-counted-as-covid-19-death-in-florida-report-07-18-2020

[KeepCalmBearOn]

2 hours ago, cruisemom42 said:

But again, no real idea how this is actually mandated either in the US or in Sweden....

 

I only read the first page of "if you have to wear a mask..." because I got the general tenor of the question (I thought), but it appears to have gone far afield. The U.S. CDC has a whole document on how and when to include Covid-19 on the death certificate. One of the more interesting sections (as interesting as government documents get) reads , "In  cases  where  a  definite  diagnosis  of  COVID–19  cannot  be  made,  but  it  is  suspected  or  likely  (e.g.,  the  circumstances  are  compelling  within  a  reasonable  degree  of  certainty),  it  is  acceptable  to  report  COVID–19  on  a  death  certificate  as  “probable” or “presumed.” In these instances, certifiers should use their best clinical judgement in determining if a COVID–19 infection  was  likely.  However,  please  note  that  testing  for  COVID–19 should be conducted whenever possible".

 

So they can classify it as Covid-19 related on suspicions alone. Not bueno.

 

As to the actual question; if my choice is not cruising or wearing a mask in crowded venues (elevators, theaters, etc) and onshore, I'll wear the mask.

[evandbob]

9 hours ago, SelectSys said:

 

Good job! You looked up some information.   I never stated under counting of COVID isn't a world wide problem unique to either Mexico or the US.  Here is a link:

https://www.news-medical.net/news/20200710/Researchers-estimate-global-undercounting-of-COVID-19-cases.aspx

"From the time trends recorded, they found that during March, April and May, European countries detected anywhere between about 5% to 86% of cases, 6% to 100%, and 11% to 86%, respectively. To achieve this, the number of tests per new case detected was about 3 to 76, 3 to 832, and 12 to 1,334, respectively"

 

 

My question for was for US deaths to be under reported by a factor of 3 like was suggested by the FT for Mexico.  Your claim is that the US is the absolute worst with respect to COVID.  I still see no evidence to support your claim based on the data.  

 

Keep looking my friend, you shall find it.  it's there.  4% of the worldwide population, 25 % of the worldwide cases and deaths.

[K32682]

People will generally fall into three categories.  The first two categories are those who will wear the masks without complaint and those who will not cruise because they won't tolerate a "police state."  Nothing wrong with either choice.

 

The problem is the third group.  They will book a cruise being fully aware of the mask requirements but will flout them at every opportunity.  The cruise lines will need to advertise their mask requirements and adopt a zero tolerance policy for any violations.  A few anti-maskers left stranded at foreign ports will get the message across. 

[sverigecruiser]

1 hour ago, K32682 said:

People will generally fall into three categories.  The first two categories are those who will wear the masks without complaint and those who will not cruise because they won't tolerate a "police state."  Nothing wrong with either choice.

 

The problem is the third group.  They will book a cruise being fully aware of the mask requirements but will flout them at every opportunity.  The cruise lines will need to advertise their mask requirements and adopt a zero tolerance policy for any violations.  A few anti-maskers left stranded at foreign ports will get the message across. 

 

I'm in a fourth category. I will not cruise if I have to wear a mask because I should not enjoy it. It's not about "police state" for me. I just won't enjoy it.  

[K32682]

36 minutes ago, sverigecruiser said:

 

I'm in a fourth category. I will not cruise if I have to wear a mask because I should not enjoy it. It's not about "police state" for me. I just won't enjoy it.  

 

Fair enough.  People who won't for whatever reason cruise if there is a mask requirement aren't the issue.  It's the people who will cruise but fully intend to ignore the rule.  

[KeepCalmBearOn]

2 hours ago, K32682 said:

The problem is the third group.  They will book a cruise being fully aware of the mask requirements but will flout them at every opportunity.  The cruise lines will need to advertise their mask requirements and adopt a zero tolerance policy for any violations.  A few anti-maskers left stranded at foreign ports will get the message across. 

 

Oh we so need a "Will you wear a coat & tie with your mask on Formal Night".

[mnocket]

4 hours ago, K32682 said:

People will generally fall into three categories.  The first two categories are those who will wear the masks without complaint and those who will not cruise because they won't tolerate a "police state."  Nothing wrong with either choice.

 

The problem is the third group.  They will book a cruise being fully aware of the mask requirements but will flout them at every opportunity.  The cruise lines will need to advertise their mask requirements and adopt a zero tolerance policy for any violations.  A few anti-maskers left stranded at foreign ports will get the message across. 

 

I know others have reported differently where they live, but when I go to the store (usually grocery & Home Depot) I see quite a few people wearing their masks below their noses or even around their necks.  I've even seen store workers doing this.  I can't imagine these people won't also be seen on cruise ships - especially with the huge gray line of "masks must be worn in circumstances where social distancing isn't possible".  Where there's room for interpretation - there's room for abuse.  So yeah, the third group will certainly be there.

[K32682]

6 minutes ago, mnocket said:

 

I know others have reported differently where they live, but when I go to the store (usually grocery & Home Depot) I see quite a few people wearing their masks below their noses or even around their necks.  I've even seen store workers doing this.  I can't imagine these people won't also be seen on cruise ships - especially with the huge gray line of "masks must be worn in circumstances where social distancing isn't possible".  Where there's room for interpretation - there's room for abuse.  So yeah, the third group will certainly be there.

 

It's up to the cruise line to have a clear policy, enforce it and visit consequences upon those passengers or crew who do not comply. The cruise line has a greater commitment to the safety of all passengers than to the few miscreants who refuse to follow the policy.  Pull your mask down and pack your bags.   

[sverigecruiser]

1 hour ago, K32682 said:

 

Fair enough.  People who won't for whatever reason cruise if there is a mask requirement aren't the issue.  It's the people who will cruise but fully intend to ignore the rule.  

 

I agree with you. People who ignore the rules shall be escorted off the ship or denied entry. 

[SelectSys]

15 hours ago, evandbob said:

 

Keep looking my friend, you shall find it.  it's there.  4% of the worldwide population, 25 % of the worldwide cases and deaths.

 

Well, I tried and found that on a population adjusted basis the UK, Spain and Italy all had a population adjusted death rate higher than the US.  Treatment of cases in the US is also better than in many countries and compensates to some extent for the higher case count and leads to the lower deaths. 

 

We also just don't know what is happening in countries outside of the most advanced nations.  My own anecdotal evidence from family and friends in Mexico suggests a significant gap in the reality versus the official numbers.  I can only imagine what it may be like in even less developed places as the disease gains a foothold.  Same with countries that have fully authoritarian governments.

 

My friend, I don't disagree with you that the US performance on COVID has been poor for a variety of reasons.  However, I think the bar was set  too high when you said the US is the absolute worst.   I also believe that it will take time to really see the true reality of COVID.  For example, did the Chinese really withhold key data regarding the transmissibility of the disease in the early days?  Would this qualify as demonstrating the worst performance in the fight against the disease?

 

Time will tell and we can agree to disagree.

 

5 hours ago, K32682 said:

...The cruise lines will need to advertise their mask requirements and adopt a zero tolerance policy for any violations.  A few anti-maskers left stranded at foreign ports will get the message across. 

 

I totally agree with your sentiment, but I am not sure this is practical and cause unintended consequences.  Kicking the passengers off the ship in a foreign port creates a logistical problem for the host country.  My idea of "zero tolerance" would be that the passengers be confined to their rooms for the duration of the cruise.  I believe it would be better for the industry if the lines handle these issues themselves without creating an additional burden on ports.  

[ontheweb]

3 hours ago, scottca075 said:

 

Oh we so need a "Will you wear a coat & tie with your mask on Formal Night".

You left out that the mask on formal night will have to be a match for the coat and tie or formal gown.

[TNcruising02]

10 hours ago, K32682 said:

People will generally fall into three categories.  The first two categories are those who will wear the masks without complaint and those who will not cruise because they won't tolerate a "police state."  Nothing wrong with either choice.

 

The problem is the third group.  They will book a cruise being fully aware of the mask requirements but will flout them at every opportunity.  The cruise lines will need to advertise their mask requirements and adopt a zero tolerance policy for any violations.  A few anti-maskers left stranded at foreign ports will get the message across. 

I agree that there should be a zero tolerance.  I hate wearing masks, but I always wear them when required.  I don't get these people who fly on a plane and then refuse to put on their mask.  Or people who go into a store where a sign is posted that masks are required, but they don't wear a mask.  I am not the mask police and stay out of it, but people should follow the rules or don't go to the place where there are rules they don't like.