Princess messages the new cruising guidelines.

[Hlitner]

I cannot believe this discussion.  HIPAA will have no bearing or relevance to cruise lines.  The cruise lines will simply have a mandatory vaccine as the criteria for cruising, disclose that in advance, and require proof.  None of that is a HIPAA issue.  If one chooses not to comply they can simply not cruise on that line.  It is likely that the CDC will amend their cruise Guidelines to require vaccinations as a requirement for any ship to use a US Port.  That is also not a HIPAA issue.  As a past HIPAA compliance officer for a large government department I would briefly explain that HIPAA protects folks from the unauthorized disclosure of their medical information (this is a simplistic explanation) but does not, in any way, prevent somebody from disclosing their own medical information.  HIPAA also does not prevent a cruise line from mandating a vaccination.  If you (the cruiser) choose not to share proof of a vaccination with a cruise line they would have every right to refuse your business.   This is not much different then cruise lines refusing passengers who are in their third trimester of pregnancy or refuse to carry a baby under 6 months of age. These are arbitrary rules established by the cruise lines to protect the cruiser, cruise line, and other passengers.

 

Hank

[Daniel A]

11 hours ago, Hlitner said:

I cannot believe this discussion.  HIPAA will have no bearing or relevance to cruise lines.  The cruise lines will simply have a mandatory vaccine as the criteria for cruising, disclose that in advance, and require proof.  None of that is a HIPAA issue.  If one chooses not to comply they can simply not cruise on that line.  It is likely that the CDC will amend their cruise Guidelines to require vaccinations as a requirement for any ship to use a US Port.  That is also not a HIPAA issue.  As a past HIPAA compliance officer for a large government department I would briefly explain that HIPAA protects folks from the unauthorized disclosure of their medical information (this is a simplistic explanation) but does not, in any way, prevent somebody from disclosing their own medical information.  HIPAA also does not prevent a cruise line from mandating a vaccination.  If you (the cruiser) choose not to share proof of a vaccination with a cruise line they would have every right to refuse your business.   This is not much different then cruise lines refusing passengers who are in their third trimester of pregnancy or refuse to carry a baby under 6 months of age. These are arbitrary rules established by the cruise lines to protect the cruiser, cruise line, and other passengers.

 

Hank

There was a Jacobson Supreme Court Case cited in an earlier post.  I was interested in reading about that and came across this case which seems to be more to the point of the discussion:

 

Zucht v. King, 260 U.S. 174 (1922), was a case in which the United States Supreme Court found that the school district of San Antonio, Texas, could constitutionally exclude unvaccinated students from attending the schools in the district.

 

I hope this case will also apply to cruise lines.

[Hlitner]

35 minutes ago, Daniel A said:

There was a Jacobson Supreme Court Case cited in an earlier post.  I was interested in reading about that and came across this case which seems to be more to the point of the discussion:

 

Zucht v. King, 260 U.S. 174 (1922), was a case in which the United States Supreme Court found that the school district of San Antonio, Texas, could constitutionally exclude unvaccinated students from attending the schools in the district.

 

I hope this case will also apply to cruise lines.

I think there are many interesting legal issues when it comes to cruise lines.  They are not only subject to US Laws and Regulations (only when in US waters) but also have to deal with International Law, Maritime Law, as well as the Laws and Regulations of each country where they enter the waters.  Also consider that in the US they are subject to USCQ regulations and must deal with both CDC and the PHS.  I almost feel sorry for cruise lines since no matter what they do they must deal with another law or regulation.  Oh, and I guess they are also subject to the Laws and Regulations of their Flag country (where the ship is registered).

 

That being said, the cruise lines are obviously responsible for the health and safety of all souls aboard and the Master of the Vessel (Captain) has dictatorial power per International Maritime Law.  Bottom line is that if a cruise line says nobody comes aboard unless vaccinated that will likely be the end of the story.  Folks can whine, can sue (but in what court), and stamp their feet but the cruise line can impose a vaccine requirement.  In fact, many countries around the world will likely implement a mandatory vaccination requirement as a condition of cruise ships docking at any of their ports.  There will also be similar mandatory vaccination requirements as a condition of entry to many countries around the world.  

 

I think the "anti-vax" folks of the world have finally met their Waterloo when it comes to COVID.  Bottom line for those folks is that if they want to play they will have to vaccinate!  ;Otherwise, their world will shrink in a big way and will possibly be limited to their own country and they may even face limitations within their own country.  I can certainly see where even domestic airlines will mandate vaccinations for all aboard just like they now mandate mask wearing.  

 

COVID is very serious  business and the public has already given up a lot of rights in the name of "public health."  I am no fan of giving up rights, but this is a bandwagon that cannot be stopped.  Now that politicians around the world have felt the power when they use the "public health" moniker they are not likely to give-up that power.  And, so far, the courts in most countries seem very reluctant to interfere in "public health" matters.

 

Hank

[Hawaiidan]

4 hours ago, Daniel A said:

There was a Jacobson Supreme Court Case cited in an earlier post.  I was interested in reading about that and came across this case which seems to be more to the point of the discussion:

 

Zucht v. King, 260 U.S. 174 (1922), was a case in which the United States Supreme Court found that the school district of San Antonio, Texas, could constitutionally exclude unvaccinated students from attending the schools in the district.

 

I hope this case will also apply to cruise lines.

Maybe only in the US.... But the ships are foreign reg and sailing out of US waters.... That why they do that.

[Hawaiidan]

4 hours ago, Hlitner said:

I think there are many interesting legal issues when it comes to cruise lines.  They are not only subject to US Laws and Regulations (only when in US waters) but also have to deal with International Law, Maritime Law, as well as the Laws and Regulations of each country where they enter the waters.  Also consider that in the US they are subject to USCQ regulations and must deal with both CDC and the PHS.  I almost feel sorry for cruise lines since no matter what they do they must deal with another law or regulation.  Oh, and I guess they are also subject to the Laws and Regulations of their Flag country (where the ship is registered).

 

That being said, the cruise lines are obviously responsible for the health and safety of all souls aboard and the Master of the Vessel (Captain) has dictatorial power per International Maritime Law.  Bottom line is that if a cruise line says nobody comes aboard unless vaccinated that will likely be the end of the story.  Folks can whine, can sue (but in what court), and stamp their feet but the cruise line can impose a vaccine requirement.  In fact, many countries around the world will likely implement a mandatory vaccination requirement as a condition of cruise ships docking at any of their ports.  There will also be similar mandatory vaccination requirements as a condition of entry to many countries around the world.  

 

I think the "anti-vax" folks of the world have finally met their Waterloo when it comes to COVID.  Bottom line for those folks is that if they want to play they will have to vaccinate!  ;Otherwise, their world will shrink in a big way and will possibly be limited to their own country and they may even face limitations within their own country.  I can certainly see where even domestic airlines will mandate vaccinations for all aboard just like they now mandate mask wearing.  

 

COVID is very serious  business and the public has already given up a lot of rights in the name of "public health."  I am no fan of giving up rights, but this is a bandwagon that cannot be stopped.  Now that politicians around the world have felt the power when they use the "public health" moniker they are not likely to give-up that power.  And, so far, the courts in most countries seem very reluctant to interfere in "public health" matters.

 

Hank

Yup.......Never let a tragedy go to waste... this is clearly a case  politicians  using the virus to  expand their control......    And when the virus is gone?     Dont count on them rolling back their gtip

[jagoffee]

Interesting discussion concerned “forced” or “required” COVID vaccinations.  My wife and I have already registered on our county website to receive a vaccination when our category is eligible, so I am in no way opposed to vaccines in general.  
There will likely be a significant group of people that cannot take the risk of being vaccinated.; perhaps in the long term, but a least for the first couple of years. There also has been little progress in a COVID vaccine for children.  (May not even be necessary)
As far as I know, no cruise ship has ever required any vaccinations of any kind unless it was related to a port being visited.  Perhaps some counties will change their local requirement and require a COVID vaccination requirement?  They would probably need everyone in their country to be vaccinated and apply the requirement to all visitors.  
 

The world wide testing  and reaction protocols can be adjusted based on whether a person is vaccinated.  IMO everyone does not need to be vaccinated for those that have been vaccinated to feel safe.  I suspect on line research and media reports have made many people an expert.  (Based on how often everyone is telling me what I need to do). Not me, but I do have an opinion that I use to make my choices.  Once I receive the vaccination, I will feel safer. I will not need to have the government require everyone around me to also take the risk of getting vaccinated. 

[Tranquility Base]

38 minutes ago, Hawaiidan said:

Yup.......Never let a tragedy go to waste... this is clearly a case  politicians  using the virus to  expand their control......    And when the virus is gone?     Dont count on them rolling back their gtip

Good.

 

Countries like Taiwan actually learnt from their past during times of SARS etc.

They had a detailed plan, trusted their scientists and public health professionals, put the plan  into action, carried their population along with them every step of the way.

They now enjoy full freedom inside their country. Have done for many months.

 

If countries who have not managed this crisis well don't learn from history, they will stumble from one crisis to the next.

Wise populations around the world will be demanding their lawmakers are better prepared for when Covid -29 strikes.

 

 

Edited December 11, 2020 by Tranquility Base

[Hlitner]

16 minutes ago, jagoffee said:

Interesting discussion concerned “forced” or “required” COVID vaccinations.  My wife and I have already registered on our county website to receive a vaccination when our category is eligible, so I am in no way opposed to vaccines in general.  
There will likely be a significant group of people that cannot take the risk of being vaccinated.; perhaps in the long term, but a least for the first couple of years. There also has been little progress in a COVID vaccine for children.  (May not even be necessary)
As far as I know, no cruise ship has ever required any vaccinations of any kind unless it was related to a port being visited.  Perhaps some counties will change their local requirement and require a COVID vaccination requirement?  They would probably need everyone in their country to be vaccinated and apply the requirement to all visitors.  
 

The world wide testing  and reaction protocols can be adjusted based on whether a person is vaccinated.  IMO everyone does not need to be vaccinated for those that have been vaccinated to feel safe.  I suspect on line research and media reports have made many people an expert.  (Based on how often everyone is telling me what I need to do). Not me, but I do have an opinion that I use to make my choices.  Once I receive the vaccination, I will feel safer. I will not need to have the government require everyone around me to also take the risk of getting vaccinated. 

I have predicted for many months that all the cruise lines will adopt a mandatory COVID vaccination policy.  Why?  Consider how much money COVID has cost the cruise lines.  Even a single COVID case aboard a ship will likely mean a cruise would have to immediately cancel all its scheduled port stops and return to its embarkation port or to someplace that will allow them to dock.  There is the issue of whether they must then quarantine passengers, whether passengers can use public transit (i.e. airlines) etc.  So the cruise lines are being forced into a position of having to minimize their own financial risk and mandatory vaccinations are the easiest solution.  You use the term "forced" but that is not the case since nobody is "forced" to take a cruise.  I should tell you that several domestic airlines are already testing an app that is like a vaccine Passport.  It may well be that nearly all the airlines will also require vaccinations (and proof thereof).  

 

COVID is different!  Many folks have tried to insist that COVID is simply one more illness (like the flu) and it will pass and life will go on.  But COVID has been very expensive and there will be an overreaction (some would say an appropriate reaction) to minimize the risk of COVID causing more financial grief.  Lets be clear that the current thinking is that the only solution to COVID are vaccines.  If there is another solution nobody has yet to express it!

 

Hank

[Daniel A]

13 minutes ago, Hlitner said:

I have predicted for many months that all the cruise lines will adopt a mandatory COVID vaccination policy.  Why?  Consider how much money COVID has cost the cruise lines.  Even a single COVID case aboard a ship will likely mean a cruise would have to immediately cancel all its scheduled port stops and return to its embarkation port or to someplace that will allow them to dock.  There is the issue of whether they must then quarantine passengers, whether passengers can use public transit (i.e. airlines) etc.  So the cruise lines are being forced into a position of having to minimize their own financial risk and mandatory vaccinations are the easiest solution.  You use the term "forced" but that is not the case since nobody is "forced" to take a cruise.  I should tell you that several domestic airlines are already testing an app that is like a vaccine Passport.  It may well be that nearly all the airlines will also require vaccinations (and proof thereof).  

 

COVID is different!  Many folks have tried to insist that COVID is simply one more illness (like the flu) and it will pass and life will go on.  But COVID has been very expensive and there will be an overreaction (some would say an appropriate reaction) to minimize the risk of COVID causing more financial grief.  Lets be clear that the current thinking is that the only solution to COVID are vaccines.  If there is another solution nobody has yet to express it!

 

Hank

I think there are many out there who figure the 'next guy' can get the vaccine and take the (almost non-existent) risk while they wait for the others to create a herd immunity so they won't need a vaccine.  I really hope that the cruise lines require proof of vaccination until at least this Covid thing has passed.  With all the talk about cruise ships being floating petri dishes I'll bet that the cruise lines will be the last segment of our society to relax the Covid restrictions.  I can see a vaccine requirement for starters as no cruise line wants any outbreaks right after restart.  An occurrence right after restart could ruin the whole cruise industry.  Just my lay opinion.

Edited December 11, 2020 by Daniel A

[jagoffee]

Hank, I did say “forced” or “required”.

 

We will find out whether you are right about what they will “require”.

[Hlitner]

Herd immunity is an ideal but seldom achieved.  In the case of COVID there is still the question of whether those who have been vaccinated will still be able to spread COVID (asymptomatic spreaders).   If that is the case then even if 90%  of the population on a ship had been vaccinated, the other 10% could catch the virus from any of the vaccinated folks (as well as those who had not been vaccinated).  If that turns out to be the case then it would take nearly 100% of folks to be vaccinated to prevent further illness.  

 

There is another factor that will be in play.  Many travelers will likely demand a mandatory vaccination policy before they would go on a ship or into some other places.  You might ask, why should I care about others if I am vaccinated?  Because if there is even a single COVID case on my cruise it will ultimately ruin that cruise for everyone!  So the question is are most folks going to shell out thousands of dollars for a cruise vacation with the substantial risk that their cruise will be cut-short or be unable to dock at any ports?  And it is the same for airlines.  If you have a choice between two airlines and one advertises a mandatory vaccination policy and the other does not....which would you choose.

 

You can also expect to find many ports and countries will adopt a mandatory vaccination policy for visitors.  

 

I look at this from the point of view of a person who spent nearly forty years working in the healthcare/insurance system.   The price of anti-vax tolerance has been very high.  10s of thousands in the USA die every year from influenza and most of those deaths could be avoided if everyone simply got flu shots.  And that does not even consider the millions of lost work days (and the related costs) related to flu.  Public Health folks have been frustrated (for decades) by the tolerance given to anti-vax folks.  COVID is finally allowing them to flex their bureaucratic muscles and demand mandatory mitigation measures and they have a lot of public support.   Keep in mind that it is the public health folks who have kept the cruise industry shut down for what will ultimately be close to a year (and possibly longer).  And it is the Public Health folks who must grant the certificates that will allow cruises to resume.  And the incoming administration has made it clear they will "follow the science" and give deference to people like Dr. Fauci who will certainly be pushing for mandatory vaccination programs.

 

Hank

 

 

[Jancruz]

I find this the most interesting topic in a long time..Thanks for all the info..

Jancruz1

[Ladys Mom]

To add support to how far the government will go to protect passengers on a cruise ship, yesterday in the newly passed defense appropriation bill there is a provision that every cruise ship must have a doctor on board employed by the cruise line.  Though I have never been on a cruise that did not have a doctor and nurse on board, to my knowledge, this makes it clearly articulated federal law.  

[Daniel A]

10 minutes ago, Ladys Mom said:

To add support to how far the government will go to protect passengers on a cruise ship, yesterday in the newly passed defense appropriation bill there is a provision that every cruise ship must have a doctor on board employed by the cruise line.  Though I have never been on a cruise that did not have a doctor and nurse on board, to my knowledge, this makes it clearly articulated federal law.  

I suspect that was some politician(s) making it look like they did something good when in fact it was already being done anyway.  As an aside, did they specify how big the ship needs to be or give any definition of 'cruise ship'?  I could see where this would be problematic for the small river cruise lines.

[Tranquility Base]

I see the NCLH CEO has said crew will need to be vaccinated.

No surprise there.

 

What will be interesting will be whether all the current vaccines being deployed or soon to be deployed around the world are included in that statement.

 

If they are then no problem.

If any are excluded then possibly big problem crewing cruise ships.

Edited December 12, 2020 by Tranquility Base

[njhorseman]

4 hours ago, Daniel A said:

I suspect that was some politician(s) making it look like they did something good when in fact it was already being done anyway.

This ^^^^

 

Blumenthal has a bug up his rear end about cruise ships. Apparently he isn't smart enough to know this bill does nothing, or he knows and he's being disingenuous.

 

CLIA supports the bill, no doubt because it will cost CLIA member cruise lines $0 while making it look like the government is doing something to assure passenger safety. CLIA already requires its members to have at least one physician on board every ocean-going cruise ship. The false assurance of something new being done to protect passengers will presumably ease potential new passengers' fears of cruising . "Oh look...the ships will all have doctors on board just in case we get sick!!"...he or she says not knowing there were already doctors on board.

Edited December 12, 2020 by njhorseman

[Daniel A]

39 minutes ago, njhorseman said:

This ^^^^

 

Blumenthal has a bug up his rear end about cruise ships. Apparently he isn't smart enough to know this bill does nothing, or he knows and he's being disingenuous. 

You might be interested in reading this link:

Did Senator Richard Blumenthal Misrepresent His Military Service? (snopes.com)

 

[pinotlover]

6 hours ago, Ladys Mom said:

To add support to how far the government will go to protect passengers on a cruise ship, yesterday in the newly passed defense appropriation bill there is a provision that every cruise ship must have a doctor on board employed by the cruise line.  Though I have never been on a cruise that did not have a doctor and nurse on board, to my knowledge, this makes it clearly articulated federal law.  

Just a guess here, but in this context, how is“ employed by” defined? Does that mean an employee ,as defined by the IRS, of the cruise line?  Can one be on a personal services contract or work via an Agency and meet the definition ? Often times many of the workers are not employees of the cruise lines but work for Agencies under contract to the lines. 
 

The Provisions would only apply to ships in US or territorial waters.

[njhorseman]

2 hours ago, Daniel A said:

You might be interested in reading this link:

Did Senator Richard Blumenthal Misrepresent His Military Service? (snopes.com)

 

Yes, I'm familiar with the story.