CDC Additional Technical Guidance Coming Any Day Now

[Jingerwoppy]

8 minutes ago, Milwaukee Eight said:

I’ll go along with this. 

I just want to see the latest guidance so I can start the timer for when it's totally changed or contradicted by new guidance,

[smokeybandit]

16 minutes ago, Ocean Boy said:

It would seem that universal vaccination aboard the ships would go a long way to prevent a ship from overrunning the medical capabilities of a community.

 

That's extremely unlikely to happen.  It didn't even happen on Diamond Princess back when no one knew anything about covid.

[Ocean Boy]

4 minutes ago, smokeybandit said:

 

That's extremely unlikely to happen.  It didn't even happen on Diamond Princess back when no one knew anything about covid.

And a vaccine mandate would make it even less likely.

[smokeybandit]

2 minutes ago, Ocean Boy said:

And a vaccine mandate would make it even less likely.

Statistically insignificantly less likely

[Ocean Boy]

1 minute ago, smokeybandit said:

Statistically insignificantly less likely

Port Everglades ties up 11-12 ships on a weekend in high season. That is easily 50,000+ passengers. Big difference compared to one Diamond Princess.

[MommaBear55]

2 hours ago, Ocean Boy said:

It would seem that universal vaccination aboard the ships would go a long way to prevent a ship from overrunning the medical capabilities of a community.

And they could spin the advertising to those what want to travel on child free cruises.

[ReneeFLL]

4 hours ago, dswallow said:

If nothing else, it would be a useful experiment to have test sailings where the crew was vaccinated and only vaccinated passengers could sail. There'd need to be some similar control at ports, so it'd probably need to be limited to CoCo Cay at first. And there'd need to be some attention paid to the board experience as well, either ensuring staff and stevedores are vaccinated, or providing more touchless sorts of experiences during that process.

Certainly there's other combinations worthy of testing as well, but we should be near a point where a vaccinated test could happen, and that likely would also be of interest by many scientific study groups... an isolated controlled investigation of how everyone being vaccinated might affect potential infection on closer-than-usual quarters.

That would be an interesting experiment. I’d like to see that for a month with me on it. 😁  If the CDC actually gives the lines any useful guidance any time soon then I will be shocked.

[ReneeFLL]

Double post.

Edited February 23, 2021 by ReneeFLL

[smokeybandit]

2 hours ago, Ocean Boy said:

Port Everglades ties up 11-12 ships on a weekend in high season. That is easily 50,000+ passengers. Big difference compared to one Diamond Princess.

That doesn't change the fact that an outbreak on a cruise ship is extremely unlikely.

[Coralc]

1 hour ago, smokeybandit said:

That doesn't change the fact that an outbreak on a cruise ship is extremely unlikely.

You forgot to use the sarcasm font? 

[cublet]

Hello,

 

What I think is this.

 

It was dead easy to say 'Stop what you are doing' - anyone can say that.

 

But I think the chief reason the CDC has not come forward with detailed instruction on what to do to operate a cruise (in good times or bad) is that it is beyond their competence.

 

Where would they find such competence? The only place they could find the competence to deliver such instruction would be from, and with the assistance of, the cruise lines.

What is stopping them approaching the cruise lines is their unwillingness to appear deficient in this regard. I can see them with their eyes closed and fingers in their ears waiting for some miracle (vaccination?) such that they can permit cruises before having to reveal their deficiency and be able to say 'what a great job we did protecting everyone'.

 

Cynic? Moi?

 

Regards,

 

Cublet

 

 

[Ocean Boy]

8 hours ago, smokeybandit said:

That doesn't change the fact that an outbreak on a cruise ship is extremely unlikely.

That must be why the whole industry is shut down.

[smokeybandit]

15 minutes ago, Ocean Boy said:

That must be why the whole industry is shut down.

There's only one reason the whole industry is shut down and it has nothing to do with covid

[chengkp75]

11 hours ago, Jingerwoppy said:

I just want to see the latest guidance so I can start the timer for when it's totally changed or contradicted by new guidance,

According to the CDC a couple of weeks ago, the latest set of technical instructions will deal with the service agreements between the cruise lines and the ports and local health care, transportation, and accommodation systems to provide services for disembarkation, transportation, treatment, and quarantine of infected or close contact passengers.  It is not for the actual simulated cruises yet.  I believe that the CDC will wait to see that the cruise lines have these agreements in place, and that they meet the CDC requirements before issuing any more technical instructions regarding simulated cruises.

2 hours ago, cublet said:

Hello,

 

What I think is this.

 

It was dead easy to say 'Stop what you are doing' - anyone can say that.

 

But I think the chief reason the CDC has not come forward with detailed instruction on what to do to operate a cruise (in good times or bad) is that it is beyond their competence.

 

Where would they find such competence? The only place they could find the competence to deliver such instruction would be from, and with the assistance of, the cruise lines.

What is stopping them approaching the cruise lines is their unwillingness to appear deficient in this regard. I can see them with their eyes closed and fingers in their ears waiting for some miracle (vaccination?) such that they can permit cruises before having to reveal their deficiency and be able to say 'what a great job we did protecting everyone'.

 

Cynic? Moi?

 

Regards,

 

Cublet

 

 

The CDC has always worked with the industry to formulate working policies and procedures, witness the venerable VSP (Vessel Sanitation Program), which was a collaboration between the CDC and the cruise lines.  You are quite correct, in that the actual operating procedures and protocols to be used on a cruise ship are beyond their expertise.  As with the VSP, the CDC sets requirements based on their expertise (epidemiology), and ask the industry to come up with plans, procedures, and protocols that the industry feel would be attainable, and then they haggle over points that are not acceptable to one side or another, until consensus is met.

 

In this instance, the CDC issued the requirements they needed to have cruising resume, and it took months before the cruise lines responded with anything, and that response, the Healthy Sail Panel report, was not an action plan, but a set of recommendations like the CDC's set of recommendations.  Since then, I have not heard of any further submissions to the CDC, and, in fact, the "first phase" of returning to cruising, the protocols for crew changes (the much heralded "greeen status") has been around since July, yet very few ships maintained this status, which is really mostly record keeping and submitting, so the cruise lines were essentially ignoring this step.  So the CDC is now relying on the "technical instructions" to set the focus closer to actual procedures and protocols,  since they don't see any movement by the cruise lines, and yes, because this is outside of their expertise, it will take longer for them to formulate.

 

In regards to the CDC's "antipathy" or "desire to ruin the cruise industry", if they had just dropped the VSP a couple of decades ago, they would have accomplished the same thing, as this would have ledt to a default of having a USPH inspection, along with health interviews with crew and passengers, every single time a cruise ship entered a US port.  That would have very successfully removed all US home ports, and likely all US port calls.

[boscobeans]

14 hours ago, Jingerwoppy said:

I just want to see the latest guidance so I can start the timer for when it's totally changed or contradicted by new guidance,

One mask-No mask-Two masks-No mask-one mask with face shield-face shield-.

One mask with 2 shots, One shot with or without masks-on surfaces-in air-in the eyes-not in the eyes........... AHHHHHH!

 

We have gotten our two shots and are just waiting to see when or if we get to cruise out of Bayonne in November.. LOL

Edited February 23, 2021 by boscobeans

[smokeybandit]

Anthony Fauci said yesterday that indoor events with crowds (to include theaters and restaurants) should still be banned even if you have the vaccine.

 

It's going to be a long, long time before cruising starts up as long as that kind of input is followed.

[Patty00]

Perhaps everyone is forgetting that RC choose not to register in the U.S. thus avoiding taxes.  Maybe if they had, things would be different.  Stimulus checks, less restrictive sailing rules and more defined "test cruises" to start immediately.  I believe that if RC was  American registered, then things would be moving along more quickly with the CDC.  I still feel that mandatory vaccination cards are going to be a must for cruising.

[Ashland]

6 hours ago, smokeybandit said:

There's only one reason the whole industry is shut down and it has nothing to do with covid

Oh dear...here we go again. How many people have we lost ??

[firefly333]

28 minutes ago, Patty00 said:

Perhaps everyone is forgetting that RC choose not to register in the U.S. thus avoiding taxes.  Maybe if they had, things would be different.  Stimulus checks, less restrictive sailing rules and more defined "test cruises" to start immediately.  I believe that if RC was  American registered, then things would be moving along more quickly with the CDC.  I still feel that mandatory vaccination cards are going to be a must for cruising.

I very much doubt even one poster here is unaware of it. Let alone everyone forgot lol

 

Hardly new news. Yes, if they were registered here they might have gotten in on some usa help. Kinda too late now. 

[smokeybandit]

The cruise industry we know and love wouldn't be what it is today if all ships were registered in America.

[boscobeans]

1 hour ago, Patty00 said:

Perhaps everyone is forgetting that RC choose not to register in the U.S. thus avoiding taxes.  Maybe if they had, things would be different. 

 

NO TAXES, REALLY...

INTERNATIONAL shipping laws are set up so we don't pay taxes on our ships and they don't on theirs. One hand washes the other

 

BUT THAT'S NOT THE WHOLE ANSWER.

 

Foreign registered ships do pay docking fees to the U.S. ports they visit.

 

They also pay per-passenger head taxes that range from about $5 to $15 per person in certain ports; on a midsize ship carrying 3,000 passengers, that amounts to between $15,000 and $45,000 per port call.

 

Further, cruise lines are subject to state income taxes, as well as various other taxes, such as a 33% tax on all gambling revenue generated while in Alaska waters and sales taxes in other ports.

. 

Additionally, more than 420,000 U.S.-based employees or people associated with cruise industry pay federal and state income taxes.

 

Everyone from the tractor trailer driver that delivers the provisions or the travel agent all the way to the luggage handlers at the docks.

 

All the hotel, airline and restaurant people that rely on cruise passengers for their business.

 

In 2019, Carnival Corp. paid $71 million in taxes on $3.06 billion in income. In the same year, Royal Caribbean Cruises, Ltd. paid $25.5 million in taxes on $1.8 billion in income, and Norwegian Cruise Line Holdings paid $18.9 million in taxes on more than $911 million in income.

 

That's a lot of taxes....

 

[DCGuy64]

15 minutes ago, boscobeans said:

NO TAXES, REALLY...

INTERNATIONAL shipping laws are set up so we don't pay taxes on our ships and they don't on theirs. One hand washes the other

 

BUT THAT'S NOT THE WHOLE ANSWER.

 

Foreign registered ships do pay docking fees to the U.S. ports they visit.

 

They also pay per-passenger head taxes that range from about $5 to $15 per person in certain ports; on a midsize ship carrying 3,000 passengers, that amounts to between $15,000 and $45,000 per port call.

 

Further, cruise lines are subject to state income taxes, as well as various other taxes, such as a 33% tax on all gambling revenue generated while in Alaska waters and sales taxes in other ports.

. 

Additionally, more than 420,000 U.S.-based employees or people associated with cruise industry pay federal and state income taxes.

 

Everyone from the tractor trailer driver that delivers the provisions or the travel agent all the way to the luggage handlers at the docks.

 

All the hotel, airline and restaurant people that rely on cruise passengers for their business.

 

In 2019, Carnival Corp. paid $71 million in taxes on $3.06 billion in income. In the same year, Royal Caribbean Cruises, Ltd. paid $25.5 million in taxes on $1.8 billion in income, and Norwegian Cruise Line Holdings paid $18.9 million in taxes on more than $911 million in income.

 

That's a lot of taxes....

 

Thanks, you beat me to it. I'm sorry that our friend @Patty00 is under the (mistaken) impression that cruise lines don't pay taxes: they do. Not only that, but cruising benefits some states enormously in terms of economic output. I believe for Florida the figure is roughly $53 billion per annum.

However, I'll eat my hat if some wise guy doesn't come along in a few minutes and work out the percentage in taxes paid by Carnival, et al and exclaim "well that's not much percentage wise." Yeah, but it IS taxes, and the other poster claimed they didn't pay any. Which is untrue.

 

Edited February 23, 2021 by DCGuy64
Added additional information

[lizzius]

19 hours ago, Ocean Boy said:

Port Everglades ties up 11-12 ships on a weekend in high season. That is easily 50,000+ passengers. Big difference compared to one Diamond Princess.

If you cut the single biggest contributor to hospitalizations (those over 60) by 90%, the overall hospitalization number due to covid drops 75-80%. Out of 50k people, you'd expect to encounter under 10 people that would require hospitalization given incidence rates right now (which are likely to keep declining). As vaccines spread to young adults, that number should drop more but it is likely older adults (even if vaccinated) will need advanced medical care for COVID from time to time.

 

Crew should be vaccinated for their own safety, but there's no need to rush it for people under 18.

[grandgeezer]

1 minute ago, lizzius said:

If you cut the single biggest contributor to hospitalizations (those over 60) by 90%, the overall hospitalization number due to covid drops 75-80%. Out of 50k people, you'd expect to encounter under 10 people that would require hospitalization given incidence rates right now (which are likely to keep declining). As vaccines spread to young adults, that number should drop more but it is likely older adults (even if vaccinated) will need advanced medical care for COVID from time to time.

 

Crew should be vaccinated for their own safety, but there's no need to rush it for people under 18.

Why would you cut the people over 60? They don't matter? They deserve the same treatment and considerations as any other age groups. It's pretty petty if you massage numbers to back your feelings.

There are a lot of us in that age group and we still pay taxes and spent plenty of money to keep the economy healthy. In fact many of us help keep the cruise lines afloat through the tough years

If you are lucky, maybe someday you'll be in that age and maybe the next generation will show you more respect than you are showing now.

[lizzius]

18 minutes ago, grandgeezer said:

Why would you cut the people over 60? They don't matter? They deserve the same treatment and considerations as any other age groups. It's pretty petty if you massage numbers to back your feelings.

There are a lot of us in that age group and we still pay taxes and spent plenty of money to keep the economy healthy. In fact many of us help keep the cruise lines afloat through the tough years

If you are lucky, maybe someday you'll be in that age and maybe the next generation will show you more respect than you are showing now.

Well, one, I'm not saying to cut them. I'm saying they are the highest risk passengers and vaccinations in that group seem to have the biggest effect on overall hospitalization rates and by far they make up the vast number of deaths from the virus... Vaccines for those passengers could be mandatory, but I believe the truth is if most adults don't get the vaccines cruises won't sail for quite some time since the incidence rate will be too high. The problem will need to be solved among that group of people: get vaccinated, or none of us can go back to normal. In the face of that, a mandate seems useless.

 

And like it or not, even if you have the vaccine, as an older person the data seems to say there is still chance enough you could require advanced medical care that a ship should be prepared for it.

 

And two, this thread is full of people who seem to think kids shouldn't be able to sail despite the risk to them from the virus being minimal. You, as a vaccinated 60 year old, carry more medical risk from the virus that an unvaccinated 12 year old. 

Edited February 23, 2021 by lizzius