An Issue with Celebrity’s Plan?

[coffeebean]

21 minutes ago, JamieLogical said:

 

Yes, I was assuming that there would be some sort of identification system. Even if kids are the only unvaccinated passengers on board, I can't tell a 12 year old from an 11 year old by sight. It would only be obvious with the really young kids and the older kids. So there would still need to be bracelets or something to identify which kids are vaccinated and which are not. I imagine they would turn a lot of venues into "adult only" areas in order to not have to enforce mask and distancing rules in those spaces.

But.......what about the adults who are religious vaccine objectors or adults who are unable to be vaccinated because of medical issues? If there is just ONE of those un-vaccinated people on board, all adults would have to wear an ID bracelet as I mentioned in my previous post.

 

As an aside the "ONE" was hyperbole. I would imagine there would be more un-vaccinated adults on board on a "mixed" or 95/98% cruise.

Edited June 1, 2021 by coffeebean

[JamieLogical]

7 minutes ago, coffeebean said:

But.......what about the adults who are religious vaccine objectors or adults who are unable to be vaccinated because of medical issues? If there is just ONE of those un-vaccinated people on board, all adults would have to wear an ID bracelet as I mentioned in my previous post.

 

I personally don't feel like it's worthwhile to have those people onboard currently. It is unfortunate that some people are unable to get vaccinated, but for now those people will simply have to pursue other vacation options. If the cruise lines stick to the CDC's current guidance of having 98% of crew and 95% of passengers vaccinated, then they currently don't have to enforce masks or social distancing. I would prefer not to sail on a cruise that allows for a higher percentage of unvaccinated passengers, because I do think the logistics of enforcement would be incredibly burdensome and onerous. I also believe that, if the 5% of unvaccinated passengers are all children, then children should still have to wear masks in indoor congregant settings, because the whole concept of allowing for a small fraction of the passengers to be unvaccinated is that the ship as a whole will have herd immunity. However, if all of the unvaccinated people are of a specific age group and are likely to congregate together, then they are a larger threat to each other.

[Susanb10567]

Just booked the July 17th sailing on the Edge. This was a totally spontaneous decision. I never thought I would be comfortable sailing this summer. I hope they get this settled soon. I will only sail if they can check vaccine status and that the CDC guidelines of 95% are met. Hopefully we will know soon.

[Denny01]

19 minutes ago, coffeebean said:

But.......what about the adults who are religious vaccine objectors or adults who are unable to be vaccinated because of medical issues? If there is just ONE of those un-vaccinated people on board, all adults would have to wear an ID bracelet as I mentioned in my previous post.

 

As an aside the "ONE" was hyperbole. I would imagine there would be more un-vaccinated adults on board on a "mixed" or 95/98% cruise.

If someone is unvaccinated because of some religious or medical issue, then I assume they are reasonable people and would wear their masks, not requiring anyone to wear some designation. It’s the fakers that’s been heavily discussed and worried about. Both those situations are pretty low numbers. 

 

den

 

[graphicguy]

3 minutes ago, Denny01 said:

If someone is unvaccinated because of some religious or medical issue, then I assume they are reasonable people and would wear their masks, not requiring anyone to wear some designation. It’s the fakers that’s been heavily discussed and worried about. Both those situations are pretty low numbers. 

 

den

 

Plus, the "fakers" should be very vigorously and very publicly prosecuted.

[coffeebean]

30 minutes ago, Denny01 said:

If someone is unvaccinated because of some religious or medical issue, then I assume they are reasonable people and would wear their masks, not requiring anyone to wear some designation. It’s the fakers that’s been heavily discussed and worried about. Both those situations are pretty low numbers. 

 

den

 

One would hope but you know as well as I do that the honor system does not work all the time.

[Denny01]

27 minutes ago, graphicguy said:

Plus, the "fakers" should be very vigorously and very publicly prosecuted.

 

1 minute ago, coffeebean said:

One would hope but you know as well as I do that the honor system does not work all the time.

I understand, but there was a 200+ posted thread that shall we say Fully discussed these issues and is now locked down for a reason. 

 

Den

[colliece]

1 hour ago, JamieLogical said:

 

I personally don't feel like it's worthwhile to have those people onboard currently. It is unfortunate that some people are unable to get vaccinated, but for now those people will simply have to pursue other vacation options. If the cruise lines stick to the CDC's current guidance of having 98% of crew and 95% of passengers vaccinated, then they currently don't have to enforce masks or social distancing. I would prefer not to sail on a cruise that allows for a higher percentage of unvaccinated passengers, because I do think the logistics of enforcement would be incredibly burdensome and onerous. I also believe that, if the 5% of unvaccinated passengers are all children, then children should still have to wear masks in indoor congregant settings, because the whole concept of allowing for a small fraction of the passengers to be unvaccinated is that the ship as a whole will have herd immunity. However, if all of the unvaccinated people are of a specific age group and are likely to congregate together, then they are a larger threat to each other.

Fortunately in this country we have the American Disabilities Act which keeps people from being discriminated against for medical reasons.  But not allowing them, they have been denied service due to their disability.  I would think they would not want to take the risk, but it is their choice and the law clearly is in their favor.  We also have HIPAA laws, but that does not say companies cannot ask about your medical history, they just cannot share that info, however that gets a little gray if they require different regulations that everyone will be able to know who is unvaccinated.  Not sure how it would apply.  

[LGW59]

8 minutes ago, colliece said:

Fortunately in this country we have the American Disabilities Act which keeps people from being discriminated against for medical reasons.  But not allowing them, they have been denied service due to their disability.  I would think they would not want to take the risk, but it is their choice and the law clearly is in their favor.  We also have HIPAA laws, but that does not say companies cannot ask about your medical history, they just cannot share that info, however that gets a little gray if they require different regulations that everyone will be able to know who is unvaccinated.  Not sure how it would apply.  

Totally support those laws and regulations and I totally support the cruise lines not allowing them on board yet.  

[graphicguy]

18 minutes ago, colliece said:

Fortunately in this country we have the American Disabilities Act which keeps people from being discriminated against for medical reasons.  But not allowing them, they have been denied service due to their disability.  I would think they would not want to take the risk, but it is their choice and the law clearly is in their favor.  We also have HIPAA laws, but that does not say companies cannot ask about your medical history, they just cannot share that info, however that gets a little gray if they require different regulations that everyone will be able to know who is unvaccinated.  Not sure how it would apply.  

There's the first mistake.  COVID is not a disability and not covered under any ADA laws.  COVID is a highly contagious virus, not a disability.

[colliece]

7 minutes ago, LGW59 said:

Totally support those laws and regulations and I totally support the cruise lines not allowing them on board yet.  

But is that not discrimination by not letting them on board?  I don't know how you can support both.  Everyone is so happy to give up their rights so they can cruise, but it is a slippery slope that may not be something you agree with in the future.  I remember all the outcry with medical information and insurance providers using that info to charge more, why not the cruise lines charge unvaccinated people more in case they need to deal with an outbreak.  Unfortunately it is not just black and white.

[colliece]

1 minute ago, graphicguy said:

There's the first mistake.  COVID is not a disability and not covered under any ADA laws.  COVID is a highly contagious virus, not a disability.

I did not say it was, it was in response to someone who cannot get the vaccine for medical reasons, but thanks for assuming that is what I said.

 

[LGW59]

Just now, colliece said:

But is that not discrimination by not letting them on board?  I don't know how you can support both.  Everyone is so happy to give up their rights so they can cruise, but it is a slippery slope that may not be something you agree with in the future.  I remember all the outcry with medical information and insurance providers using that info to charge more, why not the cruise lines charge unvaccinated people more in case they need to deal with an outbreak.  Unfortunately it is not just black and white.

See post #214

[graphicguy]

Just now, colliece said:

But is that not discrimination by not letting them on board?  I don't know how you can support both.  Everyone is so happy to give up their rights so they can cruise, but it is a slippery slope that may not be something you agree with in the future.  I remember all the outcry with medical information and insurance providers using that info to charge more, why not the cruise lines charge unvaccinated people more in case they need to deal with an outbreak.  Unfortunately it is not just black and white.

What rights is anyone giving up?  Please tell me which right that is?

 

You're asked to sign a medical form stating you do not have any sort of digestive (i.e. norovirus) issues, or any congestive issues before boarding.  Everyone signs those before they can board.  If you don't, you don't board.

 

Uploading a link or JPEG of your COVID Vaccine(s) and allowing to be tested before (and after) boarding, along with having your temp taken is just another similar step.  Who's sharing that information? Moreover, it's illegal for the cruise lines to share any of that information without your permission, just like it is with your medical facility when you fill out their forms. 

[Smmessineo]

The cruise lines seem to be building in exceptions for people who cannot get the vaccine for medical reasons, with the 95% vaccinated rule.  But, if I legitimately needed that exception, I'd  be furious at any scammers who would take advantage of it.  

[graphicguy]

19 minutes ago, colliece said:

I did not say it was, it was in response to someone who cannot get the vaccine for medical reasons, but thanks for assuming that is what I said.

 

This is what you posted....

 

Fortunately in this country we have the American Disabilities Act which keeps people from being discriminated against for medical reasons. 

 

That's incorrect.  People are protected because of their disability.  Anyone can be refused entrance or participation in any privately run facility or service because the owner(s) deem the person/people in question to be a threat to the health of others.  You will be tested for COVID.  You will be asked for your COVID vaccine card (much in the same way you provide your passport).

 

I am certain, like all other questionnaires and contracts you sign before being allowed to cruise, they'll craft a clause stating the request for the COVID information is solely used for the health of those sailing, and will not be used for any other purpose.

 

Besides, I can't for the live of me understand why people will turn over every other detail in the book about themselves, but be some vehement in their unwillingness to provide their COVID vaccine info.  Your vaccine provider has it.  I know my GP and Cardiologist has it.  My pharmacy has it (and they're in the grocery store where I shop, so the computers in the grocery store has it, too).  My family has it.  

 

But to protect yourself and those around you, it's somehow an issue to provide whether you've had a COVID vaccine or not?

Edited June 1, 2021 by graphicguy

[D C]

3 hours ago, Smmessineo said:

“What’s standing in the way of cruise lines is the CDC requiring passengers to show their papers,” Pushaw said.

Is that a hint at a "Federal trumps State" way out for DeSantis?

[ipeeinthepool]

3 minutes ago, Smmessineo said:

The cruise lines seem to be building in exceptions for people who cannot get the vaccine for medical reasons, with the 95% vaccinated rule.  But, if I legitimately needed that exception, I'd  be furious at any scammers who would take advantage of it.  

 

Sort of like the Emotional Support Animal scams.  

[UnorigionalName]

35 minutes ago, colliece said:

Fortunately in this country we have the American Disabilities Act which keeps people from being discriminated against for medical reasons.  But not allowing them, they have been denied service due to their disability.  I would think they would not want to take the risk, but it is their choice and the law clearly is in their favor.  We also have HIPAA laws, but that does not say companies cannot ask about your medical history, they just cannot share that info, however that gets a little gray if they require different regulations that everyone will be able to know who is unvaccinated.  Not sure how it would apply.  

 

What medical disability is a contraindication to all 3 vaccines?

 

Are cruise lines covered entities under HIPAA? I actually am curious... they are health care providers but not in the US?  I suspect the entity that covers the passengers and operations of the cruise ships are not covered entities, and therefore once you release information to them, I don't think they are obligated to protect it in the same fashion as covered entities.

[graphicguy]

23 minutes ago, ipeeinthepool said:

 

Sort of like the Emotional Support Animal scams.  

I love my dog.  He's part of my family.  But, I totally understand why he's not allowed in grocery stores, restaurants, malls, dept stores, etc.  First, he's totally house trained.  But, if he were turned loose in a grocery store.....Whoa Boy!

 

I also understand their need for those who are physically disabled and have legitimate purposes for their dogs to be with them (i.e. you're blind).

 

So, the only times (twice) I saw any sort of dogs on a cruise ship was on Royal Caribbean...once on the Anthem, and once on the Harmony.  First time it was a meet and greet of Cruise Critic people.  At first, I thought someone had brought their child on board, as there was a very nice child buggy in the room.  No...it was their "emotional support dog" in the buggy dressed up in a sailor suit.  SERIOUSLY!

 

2nd time was when there was some sort of "fake" emotional support dog wrapped up in a FAKE sweater stating it was an emotional support dog.  How do I know it was fake?  The dog growled at everyone in an elevator full of people.  And, later during dinner, I saw the same dog sitting at a table with its owners (yes...SITTING AT THE TABLE) while the owners fed it.  Couldn't believe my eyes.

 

 

[Keddy72]

Even an all vaccinated cruise , some people can get Covid, people need to stop thinking the vaccine prevents Covid, it just reduces the risk, and reduces risk of becoming seriously ill with Covid 

[LGW59]

2 minutes ago, Keddy72 said:

Even an all vaccinated cruise , some people can get Covid, people need to stop thinking the vaccine prevents Covid, it just reduces the risk, and reduces risk of becoming seriously ill with Covid 

I’m a gambler and I like those odds

[Keddy72]

Just now, LGW59 said:

I’m a gambler and I like those odds

Me too, but I will also be ensuring I wear masks in spaces like lifts 

[LGW59]

1 minute ago, Keddy72 said:

Me too, but I will also be ensuring I wear masks in spaces like lifts 

Quite a few here in MA still wearing masks, if that makes them more comfortable, go for it, got to respect both sides on this. 

[Babr]

1 hour ago, colliece said:

But is that not discrimination by not letting them on board?  I don't know how you can support both.  Everyone is so happy to give up their rights so they can cruise, but it is a slippery slope that may not be something you agree with in the future.  I remember all the outcry with medical information and insurance providers using that info to charge more, why not the cruise lines charge unvaccinated people more in case they need to deal with an outbreak.  Unfortunately it is not just black and white.

I’m having trouble understanding some of these objections. Sorry, I don’t want to be argumentative. I just need a little more rationale.

 

What rights are we talking about?  You are voluntarily giving one piece of information. How does that devolve into a slippery slope?

 

Privacy? Do you really care who knows that you’ve had a Covid shot? It is not as if you are revealing you have an STD.

 

Discrimination? I don’t know. What medical condition keeps you from getting the shot? How many people does that involve? Is it considered a disability if you can’t get a shot? If you are that medically fragile, do you really want to be on a cruise ship?

 

Help.

Edited June 1, 2021 by Babr