Nonrefundable deposits

[sverigecruiser]

9 minutes ago, ldubs said:

 

Again, from the consumer side, a fare decrease is not an issue at all.  The cruise lines are happy to apply the lower fare up to the payment date.  Of course that would not apply if the deposits were non-refundable. To the extent refundable fares create increased demand, the price could be impacted.   I am not going to lean towards removing refundable fares just because they are not available in some countries.    

 

 

For me, as a consumer who can't get a refundable deposit, a fare decrease is an issue! I can not take advantage of a fare decrease but if many other can they might raise the price on things onboard because many customers have paid less for the cruise so they may feel that they can spend more onboard!

 

I think that only non-refundable deposits should be the best.  

[sverigecruiser]

16 minutes ago, ldubs said:

 

Do you know why it is that refundable fares are not an option in your country?  

 

No.

[iancal]

We can attest that people 'shopping' for cruises do book cruises that they have no intention of taking.

 

We count on it.  Most of our cruises are purchased inside the final payment window.  Always interesting to see the balcony cabins that open up after the final payment date 

 

 Then, about a month later,  downward price adjustments often occur.  Most often on the standard itineraries where there is plenty of competition.    This has been standard with Alaska, Med, and Caribbean cruises over the years.

[ldubs]

3 minutes ago, sverigecruiser said:

 

For me, as a consumer who can't get a refundable deposit, a fare decrease is an issue! I can not take advantage of a fare decrease but if many other can they might raise the price on things onboard because many customers have paid less for the cruise so they may feel that they can spend more onboard!

 

I think that only non-refundable deposits should be the best.  

 

 

I have the option and prefer to keep it.  You don't have the option and don't want it available to others.  

 

Of course there is a potential indirect cost, but it is a cost I'm willing to pay for the benefit of having refundable deposits.   Those benefits are particularly valuable during this pandemic wind-up when things are still iffy.   

 

I am really curious why the refundable option is not available in Europe.   Anyone know?  

 

 

[ldubs]

12 minutes ago, iancal said:

We can attest that people 'shopping' for cruises do book cruises that they have no intention of taking.

 

We count on it.  Most of our cruises are purchased inside the final payment window.  Always interesting to see the balcony cabins that open up after the final payment date 

 

 Then, about a month later,  downward price adjustments often occur.  Most often on the standard itineraries where there is plenty of competition.    This has been standard with Alaska, Med, and Caribbean cruises over the years.

 

Seems clear the cruise lines are interested in getting all cabins filled as it gets closer to the sail date. We have sure noticed some good fares for close in booking dates.      

 

When Mrs Ldubs retired early in 2020, we were looking forward to adopting a similar approach and doing last minute cruises.  Sadly, the pandemic put a damper on those plans.   Timing is everything!  

 

  

[SteveH2508]

As far as UK is concerned, when a deposit is placed a legally binding contract is made; the terms of which would include the prevailing price.

 

A legally binding contract in UK has 4 essential elements: Offer, Acceptance, Consideration (something of value from both sides), and Intention to create legal relations. These 4 conditions are all met when you book a cruise, therefore a contract is created.

 

The parties can vary that contract by mutual consent, clearly the cruise line (or any other UK trader) would not allow cancellation with refund of the deposit as a general rule.

[Ashland]

I personally never book a cruise I have no intention of sailing on and book NRD...However those that want the choice should have it. In all my 35+ cruises booked I have only had to move one booking and had no problem being charged the $100pp fee to do so.

[navybankerteacher]

55 minutes ago, ldubs said:

 

Maybe some folks book just to participate in roll calls or to show future cruises in their signature!  😀

 

…

Of course, we are now contemplating a slippery slope.   If you think people would be so low as to “…book cruises just to participate in roll calls…” don’t you think that they just might join a roll call for a cruise they had no intention of joining - without even pretending to the cruise line that they had any intention of paying for a cruise?
 

In my experience, there are no membership committees one has to appear before to get cleared before being admitted to a roll call. And there seems to be no governing code of ethics effectively  barring such duplicity.

 

We already know, from the number of CC posters who claim to always come out ahead in shipboard casinos, that truthiness is not universal.

[sverigecruiser]

1 hour ago, ldubs said:

 

 

I have the option and prefer to keep it.  You don't have the option and don't want it available to others.  

 

Of course there is a potential indirect cost, but it is a cost I'm willing to pay for the benefit of having refundable deposits.   Those benefits are particularly valuable during this pandemic wind-up when things are still iffy.   

 

 

I absolutely understand how you feel about it and why.

 

For me the problem is that I get the potential indirect cost without the benefit of having refundable deposits, if I want to book my cruise in Europe.

 

[iancal]

52 minutes ago, ldubs said:

 

Seems clear the cruise lines are interested in getting all cabins filled as it gets closer to the sail date. We have sure noticed some good fares for close in booking dates.      

 

When Mrs Ldubs retired early in 2020, we were looking forward to adopting a similar approach and doing last minute cruises.  Sadly, the pandemic put a damper on those plans.   Timing is everything!  

 

  

We changed our travel habit 180 degrees after retirement.

 

Pre retirement everything was planned down to the day.  Both business and personal international travel.

 

We walked away from that post retirement and went to extended, spontaneous travel.  We take advantage of last minute specials on cruise, air, resorts.   This is not for everyone.  If you live near a port (we do not except for Alaska unfortunately) it is easy to do.

 

 

[hallasm]

1 hour ago, ldubs said:

I am really curious why the refundable option is not available in Europe.   Anyone know?

Tour operators selling travel in Europe must follow the EU 'Package travel directive' which sets requirements for the tour operator and also provides great security for the traveler, but at the same time the directive allows the tour operator to withhold an amount if the customer cancels - usually equivalent to a deposit  - depends on how late you cancel.  Lost deposit can often be covered by travel insurance depending on the reason for cancellation and type of insurance.
 On the other hand, full amounts for the travel often have to be paid at a much later date than in the United States.

[ldubs]

38 minutes ago, navybankerteacher said:

Of course, we are now contemplating a slippery slope.   If you think people would be so low as to “…book cruises just to participate in roll calls…” don’t you think that they just might join a roll call for a cruise they had no intention of joining - without even pretending to the cruise line that they had any intention of paying for a cruise?
 

In my experience, there are no membership committees one has to appear before to get cleared before being admitted to a roll call. And there seems to be no governing code of ethics effectively  barring such duplicity.

 

We already know, from the number of CC posters who claim to always come out ahead in shipboard casinos, that truthiness is not universal.

 

Just in case clarification is needed, my comment was tongue in cheek.  Now that you mention it, I can see folks legitimately going to a roll call without being on that cruise just for info for a future cruise.   I wouldn't but then I don't do so much of the planning these days.     

[ldubs]

26 minutes ago, sverigecruiser said:

 

I absolutely understand how you feel about it and why.

 

For me the problem is that I get the potential indirect cost without the benefit of having refundable deposits, if I want to book my cruise in Europe.

 

 

Likewise.  I understand why you would look at it that way.  

[ldubs]

10 minutes ago, hallasm said:

Tour operators selling travel in Europe must follow the EU 'Package travel directive' which sets requirements for the tour operator and also provides great security for the traveler, but at the same time the directive allows the tour operator to withhold an amount if the customer cancels - usually equivalent to a deposit  - depends on how late you cancel.  Lost deposit can often be covered by travel insurance depending on the reason for cancellation and type of insurance.
 On the other hand, full amounts for the travel often have to be paid at a much later date than in the United States.

 

Thanks Hallasm.  I wondered if there was a regulatory component.   While I have no grasp at all of the details, my perception is the "EU package" has many more passenger protections than we have her in the States.   

[SteveH2508]

24 minutes ago, ldubs said:

 

Thanks Hallasm.  I wondered if there was a regulatory component.   While I have no grasp at all of the details, my perception is the "EU package" has many more passenger protections than we have her in the States.   

Yes it does - including the provision that refunds must be paid within 14 days of cancellation. The problem with these provisions (which all went to ratsh*t due to Covid), is that there is no real enforcement of them. We all understand the difficulties due to Covid, but some companies were (and still are) taking the p*ss.

[VeganCruiser2019]

2 hours ago, navybankerteacher said:

Of course, we are now contemplating a slippery slope.   If you think people would be so low as to “…book cruises just to participate in roll calls…” don’t you think that they just might join a roll call for a cruise they had no intention of joining - without even pretending to the cruise line that they had any intention of paying for a cruise?
 

In my experience, there are no membership committees one has to appear before to get cleared before being admitted to a roll call. And there seems to be no governing code of ethics effectively  barring such duplicity.

 

We already know, from the number of CC posters who claim to always come out ahead in shipboard casinos, that truthiness is not universal.

I booked 2 cruises for 2020 that were obviously cancelled and I was able to get a 125% cruise credit which thankfully I will be able to use for 2 cruises next spring (in low-COVID areas).  I had also paid a deposit on a World Cruise for 2021 (was told deposit would be refundable up to a certain date) which also obviously got cancelled.  I am still in the process of trying to get my deposit back (>6k).  When notified that the 2021 World Cruise would be cancelled,  I (foolishly) decided to put a deposit down on a 2022 World Cruise, thinking that I could wait and see how bad the pandemic was and cancel or go.  Many of the ports of call are in South America where there is a high incidence of COVID, so even though I am vaccinated I do not wish to go.  I have not fully paid for the cruise, as I expected it to be cancelled.  It's now 5 months out, and the cruise line has not cancelled the cruise, nor have they posted any updated lists of ports of call or port excursions.  I will not be going on the cruise and when speaking with the cruise line, I was told even if the cruise is cancelled, I cannot get a refund on my deposit because when I signed up for this cruise, the papers said the deposits where non-refundable.  Any advice, comments, or suggestions?  Good or bad (I know I should have purchased insurance earlier, but I always wait a few months before sailing before I get it).

[ldubs]

On 7/12/2021 at 11:51 AM, SteveH2508 said:

Yes it does - including the provision that refunds must be paid within 14 days of cancellation. The problem with these provisions (which all went to ratsh*t due to Covid), is that there is no real enforcement of them. We all understand the difficulties due to Covid, but some companies were (and still are) taking the p*ss.

 

Thanks.  Since I'm advised there are no refunds for passenger cancellations, I'm assuming the 14 days is for cruise line cancellation.   

[SteveH2508]

46 minutes ago, ldubs said:

 

Thanks.  Since I'm advised there are no refunds for passenger cancellations, I'm assuming the 14 days is for cruise line cancellation.   

Correct.

[ldubs]

8 hours ago, SteveH2508 said:

Correct.

 

Thanks SteveH.  I can imagine, as you say, the pandemic threw a huge wrench into that refund requirement.   

 

 

[NantahalaCruiser]

On 7/11/2021 at 6:05 PM, Tapi said:

If I’m booking a cruise that’s far into the future, I WANT a refundable deposit even if I have to pay a bit more for it. I won’t pay a “use it or loose it” non-refundable deposit unless I’m close to final payment a2023 t the time I make my booking. 

I generally agree.  Booked a 2023 New Zealand cruise 2 years in advance with a RD - would never have considered booking it if the $900 NRD had been the only choice.

 

On the other hand, I booked  a 2022 Alaskan cruise 17 months in advance with a $200 NRD (transferred a previous reservation from an onboard booking with the lower deposit) since the increased cost for a RD was about $500!  5 to 2 odds seemed like a good bet.

 

[Tapi]

5 hours ago, NantahalaCruiser said:

On the other hand, I booked  a 2022 Alaskan cruise 17 months in advance with a $200 NRD (transferred a previous reservation from an onboard booking with the lower deposit) since the increased cost for a RD was about $500!  5 to 2 odds seemed like a good bet.

 

I agree. In that situation it makes sense to go with a non refundable deposit. 

[wowzz]

It does seem manifestly unfair that cruise lines allow refundable deposits in sone territories,  but not others. 

Americans,  it appears,  can quite happily book the best cabins, on multiple cruises,  at launch, knowing that they have 18+ months to make a decision about cancelling, with no financial penalty.

Meanwhile, us in Europe and elsewhere,  are unable to book first thing, because our plans might be uncertain, and we have to pay a NRD. By the time we are ready to book,  the best cabins are shown as unavailable,  secured with no financial commitment whatsoever.

At the very least,  I believe cruise lines should require a NRD of,say, $100 per booking, so ss to deter frivolous reservations.   

[Hlitner]

There has been a growing trend, among many cruise lines, in the past few years to offer the option of non-refundable deposits.  In most cases this is an OPTION and one can almost always find different fares with fully refundable deposits.  If you cannot find all the options I suggest you start dealing with a decent high volume cruise agency.  One of our favorite agencies actually lists all the various pricing options (refundable, non-refundable, with promotions, without promotions, etc) online.  With some of the mass market cruise lines it is not unusual to see more then 4 different prices (for the same cabin) depending on the options.

 

I am very supportive of this non-refundable option.  It generally lets folks obtain a lower cruise price if they are willing to accept a non-refundable deposit.  If they want a refundable deposit they simply must pay a higher price for the cruise.  Nothing wrong with this policy and it has been needed for a long time.  Too many folks will book multiple cruises (often on the same dates) with no intention of taking most cruises booked.  They simply want to hold space until they later decide which cruise (if any) they prefer.  They will then cancel most of their bookings near the penalty period.  These folks cause lots of problems in the industry as they pull cabins out of inventory which they then release at the last possible moment.   This often leaves the cruise line with having to either overbook a cruise or offer their unsold inventory at bargain prices because they become available at the last minute.  I should mention that some other cruise lines such as Oceania try to deal with this issue by starting their penalty period as far as 6 months prior to the cruise.

 

Hank

[wowzz]

16 minutes ago, Hlitner said:

If you cannot find all the options I suggest you start dealing with a decent high volume cruise agency

Absolutely agree with you, but the options you suggest are not available in Europe.

To the best of my knowledge, all deposits, certainly in the UK, are non-refunable, and the concept of differing fares, depending on the type of deposit, is unheard of. 

[Hlitner]

Just now, wowzz said:

Absolutely agree with you, but the options you suggest are not available in Europe.

To the best of my knowledge, all deposits, certainly in the UK, are non-refunable, and the concept of differing fares, depending on the type of deposit, is unheard of. 

Forgive me for forgetting about our EU and UK friends.   But in some cases you make your own bed.  With many cruise lines, folks who live in Europe, could simply book through a North American cruise agency (accessible online) and get our prices/perks.  But, as some Europeans have pointed out in the past, this means you would lose the consumer protections you have built into your laws/regulations.  And, of course, there are a few cruise lines that prohibit Europeans from booking in North America (although there are ways around that restriction).

 

Speaking of EU consumer protection it is not always as it appears.  When one UK airline went bankrupt with some of our money we sought to get our money refunded.  It quickly became apparent that although such a refund was guaranteed under European regulations it was not going to happen.  We ultimately got our money refunded by our American credit card company (we also have some consumer protection).  In another similar case we had a flight booked with Czech Airlines who cancelled our flight without having any other reasonable alternatives.  When we asked Czech Airlines for a refund (which we are entitled to under EU regulations) they refused and said they might consider a refund at a later time.  Again, our U.S. credit card returned our money (we have some protection under a Federal law).

 

Hank