Future HAL builds?

[Himself]

On 1/16/2022 at 10:08 AM, Quartzsite Cruiser said:

Seth Wayne was on the Koningsdam last month, and during a coffee chat with the cruise director, he was asked about plans for new ships.  He said the next new ship would be a different class than the Pinnacle class, but it would not be bigger.  He did not mention when a new ship build would happen.

 

Frankly, his answer seemed a little contradictory to us.  We remember, when the plans for the Vista ships were announced, being told 1800 passengers would be as big a ship as HAL would build.  Twenty years later, we have the 2650 passenger Pinnacle class.

HAL is a part of the CARNIVAL family and they want bigger ships.  Frankly, I would hope HAL would build to more Sinature Class ships.

[rafinmd]

19 hours ago, kangforpres said:

Crystal Cruises parent company is liquidating. Maybe HAL can get a Crystal ship on the cheap and turn it into the new Prinsendam?  Genting based in HK also owns or I guess now ownded the German shipbuilding company MV Werften.

 

-Paul

While Crystal is in the midst of hard times I believe reports of it's demise is somewhat exaggerated.  The Genting filing was for "PROVISIONAL liquidation".  I don't think the term exists in US law but that "provisional"  seems to be a huge modifier.  It looks like "Provisional Liquidation" is closer to chapter 11 than to chapter 7 in US equivalent.

 

Even if Crystal were to fold I doubt that either of their ships would end up with Holland America and am not convinced I would even want it.  While the passenger  counts are small and most cabins are on the small side, they are not small ships, they are spacious ships.

 

A couple of comparisons:

 

MS Zaandam, 778 feet long, 61,386 Gross Tons

Crystal Symphony, 781 feet long, 51,044 Gross Tons

Crystal Serenity, 820 feet long, 68,870 Gross Tons

 

There are a couple of hallmarks of the Crystal experience:

Very egalitarian cruise experience with a first time cruiser in the cheapest cabin having an almost identical experience to someone with 50 cruises in a penthouse.

Huge public spaces with great entertainment and dining options.

 

I would expect to be viable to HAL the ship would need to be drastically modified with cabins installed in at least one of the major entertainment venues and other changes.  The ship would not be able to get into some of the ports that the Prinsendam did and I think most Crystal Cruisers would balk at the idea of seeing half of the lovely Palm Court converted to a Neptune Lounge with just a few people welcomed and being at the back of many lines as one-star mariners.  Even as a 4 or 5 star Mariner I would be reluctant.

 

If the ships did get sold off, I would expect the most likely destination to be Phoenix Reisen which has a great track record with older, well built ships.

 

Roy

[kangforpres]

Never been on a Crystal cruise thanks for the info rafinmd. I would think if the parent company does have to liquidate it would be most likely that Crystal would be spun off as an entire entity and not sold piece meal. I'm assuming Crystal is the one arm of the parent company that makes money and therefore be valuable to potential buyers.

 

 

[johnnyswitzerland]

On 1/16/2022 at 8:20 PM, St Pete Cruiser said:

The loss of the Prinsendam and S class sized ships has hurt the itinerary possibilities.

More ports are realizing that they don't want or can't handle the larger ships and of course the bigger ships won't go there.  Key West, Charleston, Hamilton Bermuda, Montreal, Venice; the list goes on and on.

 

⬆️  I think this is an important point that bears repeating.  As more and more ports shut larger ships out, the whole industry may trend toward smaller ships.  The Oasis class et al. could end up relegated to private island only cruises.  Maybe the 2,000-passenger mark is around the limit most ports would ideally like to allow.

[pirate_dad]

I am going to guess the next ships will target the GenX crowd. I suspect the do more open plans and have eating and drinking outside more. That seems to be the trend. I would guess Celebrity is probably where everyone will eventually go seems to be popular with GenX and younger Boomers.

[chengkp75]

5 hours ago, kangforpres said:

I'm assuming Crystal is the one arm of the parent company that makes money and therefore be valuable to potential buyers.

Genting Hong Kong consists of Crystal as well as Star Cruises and Dream Cruises, both Asian-centric lines.  Dream is a luxury line, and Star is well known in Asia for their casinos.  Star is the real money maker in Genting HK.

[cruisemom42]

5 hours ago, johnnyswitzerland said:

Maybe the 2,000-passenger mark is around the limit most ports would ideally like to allow.

 

I'm curious why you think 2,000 would be the magic number when Key West already set a limit (or tried to) of 1500 passengers per day and Venice has effectively banned ALL cruise ships except the very smallest expedition types?

 

[KirkNC]

13 minutes ago, cruisemom42 said:

 

I'm curious why you think 2,000 would be the magic number when Key West already set a limit (or tried to) of 1500 passengers per day and Venice has effectively banned ALL cruise ships except the very smallest expedition types?

 

Bora Bora as well.

[johnnyswitzerland]

26 minutes ago, cruisemom42 said:

 

I'm curious why you think 2,000 would be the magic number when Key West already set a limit (or tried to) of 1500 passengers per day and Venice has effectively banned ALL cruise ships except the very smallest expedition types?

 

 

Great point! I think you're right that there will be no universal magic number.  I think a downward trend in passenger numbers – or passengers allowed in port per day – is possible.

[chengkp75]

5 hours ago, johnnyswitzerland said:

As more and more ports shut larger ships out, the whole industry may trend toward smaller ships

If the industry trends towards smaller ships, expect fares to rise considerably, as they lose the economies of scale.

[rkacruiser]

1 hour ago, chengkp75 said:

Genting Hong Kong consists of Crystal as well as Star Cruises and Dream Cruises, both Asian-centric lines.  Dream is a luxury line, and Star is well known in Asia for their casinos.  Star is the real money maker in Genting HK.

 

My opinion:  this is a company that lost focus and now finds itself in the situation that it is.  

 

10 hours ago, Hlitner said:

 When HAL retired our beloved Prinsendam I likely shed a few tears (but, of course, real men do not cry)

 

Well, sir, this is a "real man" who does cry! 

 

10 hours ago, Hlitner said:

These days you will seldom see Senior Officers dining in the MDR on HAL ships.

 

Or even at Mariner Society Luncheons.  It does seem to depend on the guest mind-set of the Senior Officers on the ship at that time, though.  

[rkacruiser]

19 hours ago, Hlitner said:

At its best, there is nothing on HAL that even comes close to the service and style of the YC.  One can certainly pay a lot more money for a Neptune/Pinnacle Suite on HAL and still not get anywhere near the amenities that exist for those in the Yacht Club.  What you will get on HAL is a much larger suite...but not much else!

 

Having had a Neptune Suite on the Westerdam and, most recently, being a YC guest on MSC Meraviglia, the differences were obvious.  

[shank63]

6 hours ago, johnnyswitzerland said:

 

⬆️  I think this is an important point that bears repeating.  As more and more ports shut larger ships out, the whole industry may trend toward smaller ships. 

There is a definite market for smaller ships, look at Viking Ocean with 9 identical ships with passenger capacity of 930, with more coming.  Oceania is building a newer class with 1,200 passenger capacity in addition to existing ships of 1,250 and 650 passengers.  Not to say that the newer mega ships are not desirable, the cruise market is diverse and cruise lines offer different experiences.

[Hlitner]

1 hour ago, rkacruiser said:

 

 

 

 

Or even at Mariner Society Luncheons.  It does seem to depend on the guest mind-set of the Senior Officers on the ship at that time, though.  

That did get a laugh from both DW and myself :).  Not only would you often not find Senior Officers at the Mariner's Luncheons, but you would seldom find DW and myself :).  When we first reached the 4 Star level we went to a few of those luncheons are were underwhelmed with the menu and often the conversation ("and how many world cruises have you taken?").  We then realized that with so many passengers going to the Mariner's Lunch it meant that the Lido was not very crowded (and always had a more diverse and interesting menu).  So on the Mariner's Luncheon days DW and I started making the trek into the Lido and always found a table and had no queues at the buffet stations :). Another thing about skipping the Mariner's Luncheons is that we did have to see all those folks wearing their silly medallions around their necks :).  I am still in awe of HAL fans who remember to bring their various Medallions on cruises.  Ours are somewhere in a drawer (with lots of other cruise mementos) and at our age I am not sure DW or myself can even remember which drawer.

 

Hank

 

 

 

[richwmn]

2 minutes ago, Hlitner said:

I am still in awe of HAL fans who remember to bring their various Medallions on cruises. 

Not too difficult to remember, my medallion hasn't left the suitcase I put it in when I got it.

[RuthC]

36 minutes ago, richwmn said:

Not too difficult to remember, my medallion hasn't left the suitcase I put it in when I got it.

Mine, too. Except when I have gotten a new one, the old one comes out and the new one stays in the luggage. 
My husband was so proud receiving his that I buried it with him. He's spending eternity ready for the Mariner's reception. 

[outdoorphoto]

He's spending eternity ready for the Mariner's reception. 

 

Ruth, that is so sweet it brought a tear to my eye and made me laugh at the same time! 

 

Rob

[sagavista]

Ah! The Heavenlydam.

[KirkNC]

21 hours ago, rafinmd said:

While Crystal is in the midst of hard times I believe reports of it's demise is somewhat exaggerated.  The Genting filing was for "PROVISIONAL liquidation".  I don't think the term exists in US law but that "provisional"  seems to be a huge modifier.  It looks like "Provisional Liquidation" is closer to chapter 11 than to chapter 7 in US equivalent.

 

Even if Crystal were to fold I doubt that either of their ships would end up with Holland America and am not convinced I would even want it.  While the passenger  counts are small and most cabins are on the small side, they are not small ships, they are spacious ships.

 

A couple of comparisons:

 

MS Zaandam, 778 feet long, 61,386 Gross Tons

Crystal Symphony, 781 feet long, 51,044 Gross Tons

Crystal Serenity, 820 feet long, 68,870 Gross Tons

 

There are a couple of hallmarks of the Crystal experience:

Very egalitarian cruise experience with a first time cruiser in the cheapest cabin having an almost identical experience to someone with 50 cruises in a penthouse.

Huge public spaces with great entertainment and dining options.

 

I would expect to be viable to HAL the ship would need to be drastically modified with cabins installed in at least one of the major entertainment venues and other changes.  The ship would not be able to get into some of the ports that the Prinsendam did and I think most Crystal Cruisers would balk at the idea of seeing half of the lovely Palm Court converted to a Neptune Lounge with just a few people welcomed and being at the back of many lines as one-star mariners.  Even as a 4 or 5 star Mariner I would be reluctant.

 

If the ships did get sold off, I would expect the most likely destination to be Phoenix Reisen which has a great track record with older, well built ships.

 

Roy

I just read on another board that Crystal has suspended operations.

[Mary229]

45 minutes ago, KirkNC said:

I just read on another board that Crystal has suspended operations.

I think there may be one or two more coming in the next 12 months

[NavArch64]

As many already know, Genting Hong Kong, the parent company, has filed for liquidation in Bermuda. Only Dream Cruises are continuing operations for now. Crystal may or may not be sold ... we shall see. In any event, the individual assets ... the ships ... probably will be sold to the highest bidder for each.

[KirkNC]

1 hour ago, Mary229 said:

I think there may be one or two more coming in the next 12 months

Would not be surprised.  I think the big three are ok but could see a spin off like RCI did with Azamara.

[KirkNC]

20 minutes ago, NavArch64 said:

As many already know, Genting Hong Kong, the parent company, has filed for liquidation in Bermuda. Only Dream Cruises are continuing operations for now. Crystal may or may not be sold ... we shall see. In any event, the individual assets ... the ships ... probably will be sold to the highest bidder for each.

I hope they can keep Crystal together in a sale as it has a very loyal following.

[NavArch64]

Since RCG, CCL and NCLH have taken on so much debt to ensure liquidity, and therefore have limited capital investment capability for now, I would be surprised if they bid for Crystal or its assets. However, MSC is an interesting possibility. Since their very large global container ship business is generating cash right now, they may have an ability to bid for Crystal or its assets that the other three do not. Also, since they want to start a high-end brand, they may find the Crystal brand to be appealing. Who knows ... we shall see.

[chengkp75]

Frankly, Genting HK (wholly owned by a family trust) and Genting Group (majority owned by the same family) have been trading assets back and forth for years, I have my suspicion that this "liquidation" will revert back to Genting Group.  Genting HK is "under" Genting Group, but the ownership is different.