Would you support gratuities removed in exchange for higher cruise rates?

[sanger727]

On 11/12/2022 at 10:30 AM, Philob said:

Not to long ago a few SF Bay Area restaurants changed to no tipping. The owners said the employees will have full benefits and a living wage(?) for the area.  A year or so later sales was down because of the higher prices. Most customers, confused on the concept, still tipped but smaller tips and the employees, front & back, complained (off camera) they made less $. I think all but one reverted back to tipping.

 

I've seen this pop up on occasion before. Americans are tippers and while many say they would prefer no tipping, they "feel bad" without it. I've never seen this model catch on or stick around very long. 

[ldubs]

On 11/10/2022 at 4:14 PM, juanarcin said:

To be clear I'm not asking about denying staff their tips. They earn and deserve those! But I don't understand why we are given one rate when we clearly have to pay more. Gratuity has always been voluntary money given for great service...up until the last decade or so at least. suddenly it's expected and added to everything! So I'm curious how you would feel if they just silently added the gratuity to the price and it was never brought up again. I think people would still tip their favorite bar tenders, room attendants etc. and the higher price would still get distributed to all the staff behind the scene...but it would give us an idea of the actual price up front while avoiding this charade that we are voluntarily giving money. It's even a set amount that we are "voluntarily" giving!

 

Would I support all including pricing?  I think my answer would be yes and our choice will always depend on the final price. 

 

Kind of scratching my head though, because you say include grats in the pricing then also say we would continue to tip additional to service staff.  In the case of bartenders 18% is already added.  I  assume you would want to have that included in the total price and then tip more?   Might as well just do a price increase.  

 

To me, if the objective it to get rid of the vagaries of tipping, then get rid of tipping.  

Edited November 15, 2022 by ldubs

[Mary229]

4 hours ago, ldubs said:

 

Would I support all including pricing?  I think my answer would be yes and our choice will always depend on the final price. 

 

Kind of scratching my head though, because you say include grats in the pricing then also say we would continue to tip additional to service staff.  In the case of bartenders 18% is already added.  I  assume you would want to have that included in the total price and then tip more?   Might as well just do a price increase.  

 

To me, if the objective it to get rid of the vagaries of tipping, then get rid of tipping.  

If you purchase the drinks package on many lines  tips are included.

Edited November 15, 2022 by Mary229

[BruceMuzz]

Most cruisers do not understand nor appreciate the complicated details of employing multiple nationalities on international cruise ships.

Nearly every employee on nearly every cruise ship is represented by a Maritime Union from their home country, that has negotiated an employment contract with the cruise line - and had it approved by their local government.

A major element of that contract is renumeration, and all the details of salaries, tips, employment taxes, currencies, money transfers, and income-reporting to each government involved.

Changing the current tipping / salary system to a new one would require each cruise line to re-negotiate all those employment contracts with as many as 40 different Maritime Unions and their respective governments.

Ignoring the massive costs involved to the cruise line, the negotiations alone could take decades.

Currently, many tipped cruise line employees (or their cruise line employer) are required to report a percentage of the employee’s income to the employee’s government tax office. Depending on the contract, the union, the country, and the cruise line, a large percentage of the tips received by the employee are not reported to his/her local government for taxation purposes.

If the “tips” become part of the employee’s salary, all or most of that money will be taxed back home - resulting in a substantial net salary loss for the cruise line employee.

The cruise lines would be forced to increase salaries for crew.

That increase would be passed on to you - the Passenger - in the form of higher fares and higher onboard prices.

 

Now, with a better understanding of how all this works, are you still in favor of including the tips in the fare?

 

[ldubs]

7 hours ago, Mary229 said:

If you purchase the drinks package on many lines  tips are included.

 

Are they included in the price quoted, or is the gratuity added?  My understanding is the 18 gratuity is added to the stated package price.   I wouldn't be surprised to learn I'm wrong as I've never purchased a drink package.  

[cruisemom42]

4 hours ago, BruceMuzz said:

Now, with a better understanding of how all this works, are you still in favor of including the tips in the fare?

 

And yet some lines do include the tips, despite the "overwhelming" obstacles you cite.

 

I wonder how they manage to do it? 😒

[BruceMuzz]

20 minutes ago, cruisemom42 said:

 

And yet some lines do include the tips, despite the "overwhelming" obstacles you cite.

 

I wonder how they manage to do it? 😒

Easy answer.

I work for one of those lines.

The company spent a great deal of time and money to re-negotiate all the employment contracts for the crew.

Then they gave all the crew a big raise in salary.

They instituted a no “tipping policy” onboard.

They had to raise cruise fares substantially to cover the additional costs.

 

Now we are having challenges filling the ships with paying passengers.

Our competitors do not include tips in the fare, so they appear to be better bargains.

We are also struggling to find crew. The crew is more comfortable with the old tipping system, and believe that they could make more money with tips.

We are also experiencing problems with poor performers receiving the same salary as the top performers. Crew Morale is suffering.

[Mary229]

2 hours ago, ldubs said:

 

Are they included in the price quoted, or is the gratuity added?  My understanding is the 18 gratuity is added to the stated package price.   I wouldn't be surprised to learn I'm wrong as I've never purchased a drink package.  

I don’t know how it is accounted for.  I had a true freebie package once and I was never charged the tip as it was included.  

[Mary229]

1 hour ago, BruceMuzz said:

Easy answer.

I work for one of those lines.

The company spent a great deal of time and money to re-negotiate all the employment contracts for the crew.

Then they gave all the crew a big raise in salary.

They instituted a no “tipping policy” onboard.

They had to raise cruise fares substantially to cover the additional costs.

 

Now we are having challenges filling the ships with paying passengers.

Our competitors do not include tips in the fare, so they appear to be better bargains.

We are also struggling to find crew. The crew is more comfortable with the old tipping system, and believe that they could make more money with tips.

We are also experiencing problems with poor performers receiving the same salary as the top performers. Crew Morale is suffering.

Interesting, thanks for sharing. 

[cruisemom42]

8 hours ago, BruceMuzz said:

Easy answer.

I work for one of those lines.

The company spent a great deal of time and money to re-negotiate all the employment contracts for the crew.

Then they gave all the crew a big raise in salary.

They instituted a no “tipping policy” onboard.

They had to raise cruise fares substantially to cover the additional costs.

 

Now we are having challenges filling the ships with paying passengers.

Our competitors do not include tips in the fare, so they appear to be better bargains.

We are also struggling to find crew. The crew is more comfortable with the old tipping system, and believe that they could make more money with tips.

We are also experiencing problems with poor performers receiving the same salary as the top performers. Crew Morale is suffering.

 

Yours is not exactly an unbiased voice. 

 

I was referring to lines that have done it this way for years, including those primarily based in countries other than the US.  If they were doing so badly, would they survive? 

 

[ontheweb]

2 minutes ago, cruisemom42 said:

 

Yours is not exactly an unbiased voice. 

 

I was referring to lines that have done it this way for years, including those primarily based in countries other than the US.  If they were doing so badly, would they survive? 

 

If they have been doing it that way for years, they do not have the previously stated problem of having to renegotiate multiple contracts.

[navybankerteacher]

13 hours ago, BruceMuzz said:

…

 

Now, with a better understanding of how all this works, are you still in favor of including the tips in the fare?

 

The hard fact seems to be that having tipping part of the crew compensation results in lower total cost to the passengers.  So those who would accept higher fares to get rid of tipping really would need to accept a higher total cost:  not just switching the dollar amount of what they tip to what they pay as fare.

[billdip]

Rarely is tipping voluntary. It is often added as an extra. Many times you can buy a tipping package. My preference is an all-inclusive price like Silversea or Seabourn. I will then tip extra for extraordinary service. What I object most to are those lines have a daily tip charged to your room and then distribute tip envelopes.

 

 

[BruceMuzz]

8 hours ago, cruisemom42 said:

 

Yours is not exactly an unbiased voice. 

 

I was referring to lines that have done it this way for years, including those primarily based in countries other than the US.  If they were doing so badly, would they survive? 

 

My company has been doing it this way for years, and rarely calls at US Ports.

We survive because we are owned by a very large cruise operator that does not require us to make a profit.

[evandbob]

Absolutely include tips in the basic cruise fare, despite the example of a company just beginning to do that.  Change is always tough, and both sides need to work out their differences so that they can compete with the lines that have successfully combined all sailing charges years ago into one fare.

 

 

[donaldsc]

2 hours ago, BruceMuzz said:

My company has been doing it this way for years, and rarely calls at US Ports.

We survive because we are owned by a very large cruise operator that does not require us to make a profit.

 

Somebody has to be making a profit or the company would go out of business.  Some information is missing here.

 

DON

[navybankerteacher]

19 hours ago, BruceMuzz said:

Easy answer.

I work for one of those lines.

The company spent a great deal of time and money to re-negotiate all the employment contracts for the crew.

Then they gave all the crew a big raise in salary.

They instituted a no “tipping policy” onboard.

They had to raise cruise fares substantially to cover the additional costs.

 

Now we are having challenges filling the ships with paying passengers.

Our competitors do not include tips in the fare, so they appear to be better bargains.

We are also struggling to find crew. The crew is more comfortable with the old tipping system, and believe that they could make more money with tips.

We are also experiencing problems with poor performers receiving the same salary as the top performers. Crew Morale is suffering.

A valuable addition to the discussion:  when it comes to mass market cruise lines, it pays to at least consider the appropriateness of the cliche - "the masses are asses".

[BruceMuzz]

1 hour ago, donaldsc said:

 

Somebody has to be making a profit or the company would go out of business.  Some information is missing here.

 

DON

If you re-read my post, you will find that we are owned by a very large cruise operator.

Very large cruise operators tend to make very large profits with many very large mass market cruise ships.

Owning a small, elegant, very pricey (unprofitable) cruise line is just an affordable ego trip for a very wealthy mass market cruise line owner. 

[sanger727]

On 11/15/2022 at 7:09 PM, BruceMuzz said:

Most cruisers do not understand nor appreciate the complicated details of employing multiple nationalities on international cruise ships.

Nearly every employee on nearly every cruise ship is represented by a Maritime Union from their home country, that has negotiated an employment contract with the cruise line - and had it approved by their local government.

A major element of that contract is renumeration, and all the details of salaries, tips, employment taxes, currencies, money transfers, and income-reporting to each government involved.

Changing the current tipping / salary system to a new one would require each cruise line to re-negotiate all those employment contracts with as many as 40 different Maritime Unions and their respective governments.

Ignoring the massive costs involved to the cruise line, the negotiations alone could take decades.

Currently, many tipped cruise line employees (or their cruise line employer) are required to report a percentage of the employee’s income to the employee’s government tax office. Depending on the contract, the union, the country, and the cruise line, a large percentage of the tips received by the employee are not reported to his/her local government for taxation purposes.

If the “tips” become part of the employee’s salary, all or most of that money will be taxed back home - resulting in a substantial net salary loss for the cruise line employee.

The cruise lines would be forced to increase salaries for crew.

That increase would be passed on to you - the Passenger - in the form of higher fares and higher onboard prices.

 

Now, with a better understanding of how all this works, are you still in favor of including the tips in the fare?

 

 

There are some US based mass market lines that are offering "inclusive" pricing where tips are included. There's no reason to re-negotiate the contracts - does it really matter to the employee whether you pay gratuities at the end, pre-pay your gratuities, or select a cruise rate that includes those gratuities. The cruise line can still call that gratuity pay as opposed to a salary increase. So, there are fairly simple ways to achieve the same result. 

[ldubs]

57 minutes ago, sanger727 said:

 

There are some US based mass market lines that are offering "inclusive" pricing where tips are included. There's no reason to re-negotiate the contracts - does it really matter to the employee whether you pay gratuities at the end, pre-pay your gratuities, or select a cruise rate that includes those gratuities. The cruise line can still call that gratuity pay as opposed to a salary increase. So, there are fairly simple ways to achieve the same result. 

 

One is a fare with no tipping.  The other is a fare with prepaid tips, which technically can be adjusted and many do give additional cash to their favorite cruise staff.   Additionally, there will likely be implications for something being booked as a salary expense vs a gratuity to eligible staff.