Concerns regarding terrorism in Europe.

[SteveH2508]

Fear isn't logical. ;)

 

Exactly - fear of flying is not logical - fear of crashing is logical:rolleyes:.

Edited January 17, 2016 by SteveH2508

[John Bull]

The msg you responded to DID include population figures for the areas under consideration. Are you quibbling over his figure of ~318 million in the US versus your figure of 319+ million. Did you actually read the msg to which you responded?:confused:

 

No, that is not what I wrote.

I asked for comparison for country vs country not U.S. vs. E.U.

 

I never mentioned EU.

What is the per capita comparison of Norway to U.S?

Sweden to U.S.?

Belgium?

The Netherlands?

You get the picture.

 

The topic is about Europe in general and about specific countries some might avoid at this time and other countries they would visit. There are some EU countries for each category.

 

 

Hmmm, life's getting kinda complicated. ;)

Traveller Thom thought you were quibbling whether the US population is 318million or317million as in Extra Kim's post, and I responded that no, you weren't quibbling over a million, you were comparing the US against European countries.

 

The figures you ask for are easily found on the web.

These figures from the United Nations, pages 122 to 133 at

https://www.unodc.org/documents/gsh/pdfs/2014_GLOBAL_HOMICIDE_BOOK_web.pdf

 

Norway has the highest homicide rate in western Europe at 2.2 per 100.000 inhabitants, but like all western European countries it's way under the rate in the USA at 4.7

Belgium is 1.6, Sweden 0.7, Netherlands 0.9, UK 1.0.

No eastern European countries beyond Russian Federation influence exceed the US rate, even Turkey's 2.6 and Egypt's 3.4 are well short of the USA.

 

So yes, it varies country by country in Europe, as I've no doubt it does state by state in the US - but as per all posts which have commented on it, the rate in Europe is way below the US rate.

 

To reiterate, these figures are per capita.

 

Won't put me off visiting the States or mainland Europe.

Might put me off visiting Swaziland at 33.8 !!!!!!

 

JB :)

Edited January 18, 2016 by John Bull

[sail7seas]

I am simply not interested in continuing this conversation. Been there; done that. :)

I come here to enjoy and have have pleasant give and take. I'm not here to research a doctoral

thesis.

Edited January 18, 2016 by sail7seas

[John Bull]

I am simply not interested in continuing this conversation. Been there; done that. :)

I come here to enjoy and have have pleasant give and take. I'm not here to research a doctoral

thesis.

 

 

You insisted that Extra Kim give figures per capita even though he gave the population figures, making the comparison easy.

 

You wanted the figures country-by-country.

I gave you them, per capita, together with the impeccable source.

 

So because they're not what you thought they'd be, you're ungraciously ducking out of a thread rather than acknowledging the facts. :rolleyes:

And this is not the first time you've done that.:rolleyes:

 

 

JB :)

Edited January 18, 2016 by John Bull

[TravelerThom]

John Bull: I think that we are generally in agreement, but as I read the report you reference, the 77 killed in Norway 22 Jul 2011 are included in Norway's homicide numbers, and Norway's rate would be significantly lower without this anomaly. (By contrast the 3000+ killed in the US 11 Sep 2001 were not included in US homicide numbers - if they had been the US would look worse than it already does.) Statistics can always be skewed one way or another.

 

Thom

 

PS I now realize that I have visited the four countries with the worst homicide rates in the world, and 16 of the worst 20.:eek: I like to think that I pay attention to my surroundings, but now I'm not so sure.

[John Bull]

John Bull: I think that we are generally in agreement, but as I read the report you reference, the 77 killed in Norway 22 Jul 2011 are included in Norway's homicide numbers, and Norway's rate would be significantly lower without this anomaly. (By contrast the 3000+ killed in the US 11 Sep 2001 were not included in US homicide numbers - if they had been the US would look worse than it already does.) Statistics can always be skewed one way or another.

 

Thom

 

PS I now realize that I have visited the four countries with the worst homicide rates in the world, and 16 of the worst 20.:eek: I like to think that I pay attention to my surroundings, but now I'm not so sure.

 

Hi Thom,

 

The figure for Norway did surprise me and that explains why.

I quoted only the latest figures shown - mainly they're for 2012 but the latest shown for Norway was 2011.

But one good thing about those statistics is that they cover 12 -13 years and I'm happy to confirm that the preceding years' figures for Norway were all between 0.6 and 1.1, around or just below the western European average.

 

Yes, there are some eye-openers amongst those figures elsewhere in the world & they put Europe & America's into perspective..

And because this whole thread is about North Americans' concerns about Europe, I decided it might not be wise to quote the rates for some of the Caribbean countries ;)

I suggest you don't look at them, Moniquet :D

 

JB :)

[moniquet]

I go by my own perceptions not skewed stats. Many murders in USA and UK are drug gang related, similar the Caribbean. Tourist are targeted for money, unlike Tunisia, Turkey, Egypt where tourists are targeted because they want to kill us for being "infidels" Molotov cocktails were thrown at a tourist bus in Cairo last week. Somehow I don't see that happening in the USA.

[Extra Kim]

Where in EUROPE can I find Tunisia and Egypt? :rolleyes:

[Extra Kim]

I go by my own perceptions not skewed stats. Many murders in USA and UK are drug gang related, similar the Caribbean.

Well not according to this:

http://Www.mirror.co.uk/news/ampp3d/bedfordshire-murder-capital-britain-see-5190085

[moniquet]

Well not according to this:

http://Www.mirror.co.uk/news/ampp3d/bedfordshire-murder-capital-britain-see-5190085

 

Which proves my point....most is not aimed at tourists.:)

[iancal]

Everyone has their own perception.

 

Bottom line for us. From a terrorism or mass murder perspective we do not feel any safer in the US than we do in Europe.

 

Our perception is that we have a much higher chance of being pick pocketed in Europe but a much lower chance of personal violence-being mugged, shot, whatever.

[moniquet]

Pick pocketing, they would even take the shirt off your back in Barcelona. Wouldn't put me off going though, not risking my neck:D

[buggins0402]

I gave you one example France and still the risk is greater to be killed by the U.S police in the U.S than the risk of getting killed by terrorists in France.

 

Keep in mind that the E.U and Europe are two different things, for example Norway isn't a part of the E.U.

 

I just have one quibble with your stat of getting killed by police in the U.S., with regard to the "sample population". The chances of being shot by the police varies widely depending if you are a law abiding citizen who would never point a gun at a cop or a criminal.

 

That said...I have no problem going to Europe and would probably accept a free trip to Beirut. I also live in the Detroit area and there are definitely places there where I would stand a much better chance of being killed than by a terrorist in Istanbul.

[cruisemom42]

I go by my own perceptions not skewed stats. Many murders in USA and UK are drug gang related, similar the Caribbean. Tourist are targeted for money, unlike Tunisia, Turkey, Egypt where tourists are targeted because they want to kill us for being "infidels" Molotov cocktails were thrown at a tourist bus in Cairo last week. Somehow I don't see that happening in the USA.

 

I grew up in a scientific family, so I guess I'll continue to "trust the data". I'm not in such bad company though. Nobel Laureate Daniel Kahneman posted recently on why you should rely on data to predict outcomes, not your gut. To sum up in a few words: people are very inconsistent and are terribly biased by recent events.

[Extra Kim]

I just have one quibble with your stat of getting killed by police in the U.S., with regard to the "sample population". The chances of being shot by the police varies widely depending if you are a law abiding citizen who would never point a gun at a cop or a criminal.

 

That said...I have no problem going to Europe and would probably accept a free trip to Beirut. I also live in the Detroit area and there are definitely places there where I would stand a much better chance of being killed than by a terrorist in Istanbul.

 

I don't doubt that, but still getting killed by a cop isn't the most common way to get killed in the U.S and that's the point.

People have a big fear of getting killed by terrorists, but the odds are more likely that you would die in traffic going to work.

[Extra Kim]

Which proves my point....most is not aimed at tourists.:)

 

No it didn't. Nice try, but you better come up with something better than that!

 

But never mind, you don't care about logic and facts. I do.

[$hip$hape]

Unfortunately things can happen anywhere, even in your hometown...

 

Staying home behind closed doors out of fear is no way to live life.

 

Go and enjoy.

 

I just have one quibble with your stat of getting killed by police in the U.S., with regard to the "sample population". The chances of being shot by the police varies widely depending if you are a law abiding citizen who would never point a gun at a cop or a criminal.

 

That said...I have no problem going to Europe and would probably accept a free trip to Beirut. I also live in the Detroit area and there are definitely places there where I would stand a much better chance of being killed than by a terrorist in Istanbul.

A few years ago, my Son-in-Law( who is from Istanbul) said, There are 14 million people in Istanbul.

If one bomb goes off, chances are, it will not affect you.;)

[moniquet]

A few years ago, my Son-in-Law( who is from Istanbul) said, There are 14 million people in Istanbul.

If one bomb goes off, chances are, it will not affect you.;)

 

Don't care which ridiculous stats you come out with, try quoting them to the relatives of the 10 Germans hacked to bits last week.

 

Read my lips.....I wouldn't go to Turkey right now and I would not advise anyone else to do either. If things don't improve there I cannot see the cruise ships stopping there this summer. Been visiting Miami for 30 years and nothing has happened yet, that's not counted in any data, even Nobel prize winners:D over and out!

[$hip$hape]

Don't care which ridiculous stats you come out with, try quoting them to the relatives of the 10 Germans hacked to bits last week.

 

Read my lips.....I wouldn't go to Turkey right now and I would not advise anyone else to do either.

If things don't improve there I cannot see the cruise ships stopping there this summer.

Been visiting Miami for 30 years and nothing has happened yet, that's not counted in any data, even Nobel prize winners:D over and out!

 

I guess that's why we find Europe intriguing.

[TravelerThom]

I firmly believe that people are entitled to opinions, and if that opinion includes not going somewhere (or not going anywhere) that's okay with me. However if all they have is emotional gut reaction, statistics be damned, I really wish they would give up waving their hands in the expectation that they will convince people who do believe in facts and logic. I find such people amusing to a point, but then they get merely tiresome.

[John Bull]

Don't care which ridiculous stats you come out with, try quoting them to the relatives of the 10 Germans hacked to bits last week.

 

Read my lips.....I wouldn't go to Turkey right now and I would not advise anyone else to do either. If things don't improve there I cannot see the cruise ships stopping there this summer. Been visiting Miami for 30 years and nothing has happened yet, that's not counted in any data, even Nobel prize winners:D over and out!

 

How about quoting stats to the relatives of these random quickly-googled five Germans amongst a clutch of tourists murdered in Miami?

http://www.nytimes.com/1993/04/06/us/tourist-killing-casts-pall-over-miami.html?pagewanted=all

http://www.nytimes.com/1993/09/09/us/tourist-is-killed-in-florida-despite-taking-precautions.html

http://www.miamibeach411.com/news/dead-german-tourist

http://community.seattletimes.nwsource.com/archive/?date=19930908&slug=1720067

 

Nothing's happened to you in Miami. :)

Me neither.

Nor to millions of tourists who've visited Miami.

 

Guess what.

Same applies to Istanbul. :)

And Paris and New York and Madrid and Charleston and London and Boston and on and on and on.

 

In all these places the greatest risk by far is still a grizzly traffic accident.

 

Fact, not perception.

 

JB :)

[dsrdsrdsr]

Don't care which ridiculous stats you come out with, try quoting them to the relatives of the 10 Germans hacked to bits last week.

 

Read my lips.....I wouldn't go to Turkey right now and I would not advise anyone else to do either. If things don't improve there I cannot see the cruise ships stopping there this summer. Been visiting Miami for 30 years and nothing has happened yet, that's not counted in any data, even Nobel prize winners:D over and out!

 

You don't go via London to get to Miami, I presume? ;)

[Keith1010]

It is a natural feeling to be scared and I know others who feel the same way.

 

My view is that things can happen anywhere including or own home yards.

 

Yes, there are some places I would not sail or get off the ship but that would be in places that are less of a terrorist threat the way we think of that.

 

I would not hesitate to travel.

 

And I do not believe in putting off things that you can do today until tomorrow.

 

Keith

[moniquet]

I firmly believe that people are entitled to opinions, and if that opinion includes not going somewhere (or not going anywhere) that's okay with me. However if all they have is emotional gut reaction, statistics be damned, I really wish they would give up waving their hands in the expectation that they will convince people who do believe in facts and logic. I find such people amusing to a point, but then they get merely tiresome.

 

Yes there seems to be quite a few trying to convince me to travel to Turkey...works both ways,

 

BTW according to stats many Americans have cancelled their travel plans to Europe.

[moniquet]

You don't go via London to get to Miami, I presume? ;)

 

I am in London a lot, most of my family work there, go to theatres and restaurants. That is my life not a holiday. I also trust the security services more than the Turkish one:)