Warning - do not sail Celebrity with young children

[villauk]

Well said, Its also wasn't about whether you should take your children on holiday in School time, Which schools have two weeks holiday at half term in the UK or whether your children should be in the Martini bar whether it was open or closed.

 

I wish people could keep to the point.

 

I asked about areas because the OP stated there were lots of children onboard, which is strange for a Celebrity 14 nighter out of the school holiday period (the majority of the UK only having 1 week half term break). Royal maybe, but unusual for X ;)...

 

 

It definitely is because there are lots of children around the ship due to the poor service offered in the children's facilities.

 

 

I'm more shocked at the responses of some who have never even taken kids on a Celebrity cruise, never mind been in the Fun Factory and some haven't even sailed on X :eek:. In our experience, there has always been another person on the desk as you go into the FF and I personally found it difficult to open the outside door. Are we stating that perhaps the OP's experience was different to our own, including the safety issues she raised?

 

Anonymously,

I read the article you posted above and it clearly stated Cunard's policy was 2 members of staff. Unfortunately, it made no difference in this particular case.

 

 

What about the parents of the other 9 children in the group, they were obviously happy to leave their children in the care of the X staff and FF environment? Is everyone saying they were wrong? Or the other thousands of parents that leave their kids day in, day out throughout the year in the club? Or again, has the OP had a different experience to the majority of pax replying that have used the facilities previously?

 

 

Bottom line: if the OP isn't comfortable with the set-up on X, then they are within their rights to not leave their children and to state why. There are plenty of games to play etc. in the card area for the rest of the cruise and hopefully they will enjoy the family time they spend together onshore :). Perhaps it would be best for the OP to write an email/letter to X in Miami expressing her concerns on her return, rather than upsetting the rest of their vacation? She has made a formal complaint to GS, so there will be a record to refer to.

 

Some kids never attend the clubs and still have a wonderful holiday :). On the other hand, many kids have attended the clubs over the years and have experienced fantastic times also, including our own ;).

[merinski]

Nothing happened to the OP Children. I'm not sure what the problem is. Did they not enjoy it? They didn't get lost or stolen... I'm sure as another has posted that the person in charge could call if she needed help, or in emergency.

[LisaAtlCruiser]

I am not sure the warning should be to not sail X with young children- as it should be parents do your research before deciding to leave your children in the care of others.

 

While no doubt X is safe for children, they are not up to OPs standards. That is on the OP.

 

I don't travel with children, but even for my own safety I do research!

 

 

 

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[dkjretired]

I never said children are 2nd class citizens? The OP has back tracked and said she was only in the bar when closed, but her original post says "I do apologise to any guests we disturb but we are trying to be as discreet as possible but from talking to fellow passengers they are enjoying engaging with our children and having them around." so clearly they were sitting and playing the the bar when there were people using it.

 

I think they are many options for an indoor seat that does not have to be either the room or a bar. The kids club is just for kids and I cannot go in there, what is wrong with expecting a BAR to be free of small children?

 

And I realize I can travel whenever I want, and chose my time carefully in the hope of fewer children. Of course they are allowed and welcomed, there are facilities just for them! They exist in the world and have every right to to be a cruise and should be an welcomed as every passenger is. However, anyone who has met small children knows they act in a way that can be counter to relaxation. And I will leave the school vacation cruises to those who enjoy them and cruise at an off time myself.

 

What is wrong with that?

 

 

Absolutely nothing wrong and that is what people should be doing if they want to avoid kids. My only problem is those uneducated people who say kids should not be on ships or even worse be on Celebrity ships. They then say Celebrity has terrible children's programs with no personal knowledge at all.

[Fouremco]

A few more points of clarification. The staff working in the Fun Factory are required to have schooling in education (often a degree) or similar curriculum. There are always multiple staff working in the Fun Factory with the kids, this is corporate policy. Any child that is a problem, behaviorally, is not allowed back into the program after the parents are notified. I believe the fewest number of kids that I have ever seen in there was two or three and that was at odd times.

This clearly contradicts what the OP was told and what she experienced.

[Texed]

This clearly contradicts what the OP was told and what she experienced.

 

I believe that she stated that on "sign up night" there was one worker signing up folks. She also said that they would not let the kids play. Maybe the reason was there were not enough staff to allow the play times. :)

[bottomfeeder]

I am not sure the warning should be to not sail X with young children- as it should be parents do your research before deciding to leave your children in the care of others.

 

While no doubt X is safe for children, they are not up to OPs standards. That is on the OP.

 

I don't travel with children, but even for my own safety I do research!

 

 

 

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This!

 

My kids went to cruise line kids' programs when they were young. Only once on Celebrity but several times on Princess. I never had concerns about their safety, about what food or drink the staff were giving them, etc. They enjoyed the kids' programs. They have grown into fine, well-adjusted healthy men with college degrees and responsible jobs.

 

Certainly you need to be comfortable with anywhere you leave your children. If your children have any kinds of special needs, serious allergies, etc., then your research may need to be more thorough.

 

I really think this is a case of an extremely protective parent who needs to much more thoroughly research the kids' programs before taking her kids on another cruise. She may find that there are other cruise lines that suit her needs better. Or not!

[AnOnymously]

I believe that she stated that on "sign up night" there was one worker signing up folks. She also said that they would not let the kids play. Maybe the reason was there were not enough staff to allow the play times. :)

 

I think you should re-read rather than rembering, memories seriously fail

They went for their first session the following day. My concerns began to increase. Again only one member of staff. The age ranges had been put together so it was 3-8year olds. The children seemed to have had a good time, saying they had played a Cars game on the X Box.

 

After a couple of sessions I asked a member of staff whether there was always just one adult. I counted atleast 11 children. She explained that yes that was normal. I explained that in the UK that wouldn't be acceptable or safe having just 1 adult in the room.

 

cdbaum said

A few more points of clarification. The staff working in the Fun Factory are required to have schooling in education (often a degree) or similar curriculum. There are always multiple staff working in the Fun Factory with the kids, this is corporate policy.

 

Someone has got it wrong.

Edited October 27, 2016 by AnOnymously

[AnOnymously]

Like how the OP says the kids are unsupervised to the point where a child can get out at any time? Which is blatantly not true? You've also made no secret of the fact that you've not been on a Celebrity ship, yet, so I think your suppositions are the least informed of all.

 

At least do me the courtesy to quote everything that I said

It does not mean they are great but the point being made was that people were saying that Celebrity did NOT MARKET at families and clearly they do market at families. Again people have been saying things on here which does not bear out in fact.

 

So my comments were about the FACTS. Celebrity advertise their children's facilities they clearly do market for families and people on here had said that they did not.

 

Seems to me that some people would like not to have kids on their cruise and try to create the image that Celebrity do not market to have them.

 

If you wish to clarify what was said by the op, please do, but do not try to put words into my mouth.

[cporses]

Given the huge concern re staffing levels by the OP, I have to wonder why more detailed enquiries were not made prior to booking. If it was simply a case of "We assumed....." then the buck stops with the OP.

The demeanour of the staff is a totally different kettle of fish.

 

 

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[Fish Lover]

I never said children are 2nd class citizens? The OP has back tracked and said she was only in the bar when closed, but her original post says "I do apologise to any guests we disturb but we are trying to be as discreet as possible but from talking to fellow passengers they are enjoying engaging with our children and having them around." so clearly they were sitting and playing the the bar when there were people using it.

 

I think they are many options for an indoor seat that does not have to be either the room or a bar. The kids club is just for kids and I cannot go in there, what is wrong with expecting a BAR to be free of small children?

 

And I realize I can travel whenever I want, and chose my time carefully in the hope of fewer children. Of course they are allowed and welcomed, there are facilities just for them! They exist in the world and have every right to to be a cruise and should be an welcomed as every passenger is. However, anyone who has met small children knows they act in a way that can be counter to relaxation. And I will leave the school vacation cruises to those who enjoy them and cruise at an off time myself.

 

What is wrong with that?

 

The Martini Bar is right in the middle of a main thoroughfare. When it is closed, people often use the table and chairs for other activity. This is also true of the rendezvous lounge , the pool deck and the cafe. In fact, during the day folks with kids are far less likely to interrupt any activity or disturb people in the bar! Furthermore, children are not prohibited from being in the Martini bar however I've never seen any there when the bar is open. You and Cruise Critic nenbers (thank goodness) do not make up the rules. I do see children in the other bars/lounges. Why anyone is focusing on this is absurd.

Edited October 27, 2016 by Fish Lover
additional comment

[Zoedokey]

Was there one staff member for the entire club, or one staff member for each age group of children?

 

 

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[MarinaDCA]

Absolutely nothing wrong and that is what people should be doing if they want to avoid kids. My only problem is those uneducated people who say kids should not be on ships or even worse be on Celebrity ships. They then say Celebrity has terrible children's programs with no personal knowledge at all.

 

Well that is silly to say! When me and Steve want an adults only vacation we go to an adults only resort. I figure kids are just a fact of life, every they are allowed they will be. So or course kids should be allowed on ships, they aren't adults only, kids are also people! I hope the kids program is good (Have no experience with it) as that will keep the kids that are on the cruise occupied. Seems like a win-win to me.

 

Sure I try to book to try to avoid max #s of kids, but I very much expect there will still be some. But as much as I want to relax without kids screaming, I will be on vacation so all will be good. :)

[MarinaDCA]

The Martini Bar is right in the middle of a main thoroughfare. When it is closed, people often use the table and chairs for other activity. This is also true of the rendezvous lounge , the pool deck and the cafe. In fact, during the day folks with kids are far less likely to interrupt any activity or disturb people in the bar! Furthermore, children are not prohibited from being in the Martini bar however I've never seen any there when the bar is open. You and Cruise Critic nenbers (thank goodness) do not make up the rules. I do see children in the other bars/lounges. Why anyone is focusing on this is absurd.

 

I think it's a very good thing that none of us make the rules! :) I think we will need to agree to disagree regarding children in bars.

[AnOnymously]

Given the huge concern re staffing levels by the OP, I have to wonder why more detailed enquiries were not made prior to booking. If it was simply a case of "We assumed....." then the buck stops with the OP.

The demeanour of the staff is a totally different kettle of fish.

 

 

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I agrre in many ways, but if you can't get a copy of the regulations whilst on board using the facility what chance one got before one sails?

[The_Big_M]

While full statistics are not available young children would seem to be at higher risk in the pool area with their relatives, based upon the number of reported deaths and near drownings reported on cruise ships.

 

Agreed.

 

All that has been mentioned here is a perceived safety issue, rather than an actual safety issue.

[SusieV]

I really am quite shocked at some of the replies on here.

The poster posted this on the Pando board as well, and maybe because our rules are more stringent than Celebrities people thanked them.

I do not like children, but if a cruise line advertises that it has facilities to cater for children, would you not assume that they would be fit for purpose.

To actually find out that not really fit for purpose until onboard does not help.

Pando's childrens clubs have a good reputation. Those with families may stick with Pando.

From what I have read children adore the kids clubs on Pando ships. It is not used as somewhere to dump your children. They actually have enough staff to entertain the children and make them want to go back.

If Celebrity just want adults to be on their ships surely the age demographic heads northwards.

 

Ah, but therein lies the dispute- I personally think the idea that the Fun Factory is not fit for purpose to be ridiculous. It looks like the OP was just looking for something to complain about. If you don't want to use the kids club, then fine, don't use it- but to waste vacation time filing an official complaint seems excessive.

 

Just for the record, there were four kids club staff members on Summit two weeks ago. One with each age group, one to sit at the front desk and buzz kids/parents in and out. There were only 25 children onboard.

Edited October 28, 2016 by SusieV

[fshagan]

This link has a recap of the X policy regarding kid's club staffing and ages in the various groups. It matches the PDF file I found on the site in most details.

 

The OP complained about only one staff member present; the information at that link says that the minimum staffing for kid's club is three counselors each sailing, with up to 12 counselors during busier times. Because of the hours available I am assuming there are often times when a small group of children has only one counselor, as the counselors have to work shifts. While broken up into blocks, the time period during which the kid's club might be open is from 9 AM to 10 PM, far too long for a single person to remain alert and ready for any issue that might arise. That's at least two shifts.

 

Another concern was the combining of the age groups; that information says this:

 

Availability

The Celebrity Youth Program is available year round with a full, four-tier age group program during President's Week, Easter, Summer, Thanksgiving, and Christmas sailings. On all other sailings, a combined age group program is offered.

 

So I think the OP is correct, they combine the ages. They have only one counselor on duty at certain times. So it's a fair warning to other parents who are expecting or desiring more. The information isn't hidden, and parents who want to research this can certainly do so. The problem we all face is that if we are used to things being done a certain way we don't even realize we have to research something.

 

I don't think the X program is a danger to children but I recognize the right of parents to establish any standards they want to for their children.

[villauk]

This link has a recap of the X policy regarding kid's club staffing and ages in the various groups. It matches the PDF file I found on the site in most details.

 

The OP complained about only one staff member present; the information at that link says that the minimum staffing for kid's club is three counselors each sailing, with up to 12 counselors during busier times. Because of the hours available I am assuming there are often times when a small group of children has only one counselor, as the counselors have to work shifts. While broken up into blocks, the time period during which the kid's club might be open is from 9 AM to 10 PM, far too long for a single person to remain alert and ready for any issue that might arise. That's at least two shifts.

 

Another concern was the combining of the age groups; that information says this:

 

 

 

So I think the OP is correct, they combine the ages. They have only one counselor on duty at certain times. So it's a fair warning to other parents who are expecting or desiring more. The information isn't hidden, and parents who want to research this can certainly do so. The problem we all face is that if we are used to things being done a certain way we don't even realize we have to research something.

 

I don't think the X program is a danger to children but I recognize the right of parents to establish any standards they want to for their children.

 

Thanks for posting the details off the X website :). I don't think I recall one post that disputed the combining of groups, X do if there are few children in the age range. There are many posts on CC confirming this, especially out of main school holiday periods when the uptake in the clubs is low. We are unable to confirm either way how many or the set up of counselors/staff on duty at any particular time as we do not know the shift patterns or if the desk area/adjoining area is counted as separate cover. And as Anonymously's link highlighted, even 2 members of staff unfortunately can make little difference in some instances.

 

But as you say, basically it comes down to what the parents are happy with for their children. The OP stated they had left their children for a few sessions, but felt uncomfortable and so then decided it wasn't right for them.

[Wirral]

Our granddaugter has been on 2 trips and we are booked on another next year. She was just 4 and just 5 on the 2 trips. On both occasions she had a brilliant time in the club. We did take her in August as she had school starting at the beginning of September. We were VERY impressed with the security arrangements as I was the person who normally collected her. No parents are allowed in the area for the safety of all the children. I had to sign my DGD in and out. Only older children with written permission from parents can sign themselves out. I think you had to be 10+ for this but I do not know for sure, as DGD not in that age range, it did not apply.

Our only problem with the club was that she wanted to be there all the time and you are asked not to leave your child for all the sessions in one day. Surely you want to spend some time with your child on holiday. Worked really well for us.

I certainly always saw at least 2 people on duty every time I went. Can I say that a teacher of secondary pupils for over 30 years in the UK and now a primary school governor I am aware of care issues and never saw anything which worried me.

Celebrity tends to cater for an older market and those with teenage children would prefer one of the family orientated lines such as RC, NCL etc. However from our experience our GD had a fabulous time and her first question on being told we had booked another cruise was "Can I go to the club?".

[dandee2]

Interesting. I'm in Canada, and I believe in our schools there's a ratio of approximately 25 - 30 students to one teacher for kindergarten (age 5).

 

Quebec:

 

Daycare (all time): 6 to 1

Kindergarten: 10 to 1 (when on a trip):

Primary school: 10 to 1 (when on a trip):

Secondary school (when on a trip): 15 to 1.

 

But don't forget that you're on a ship, sometime far from shore and medical facilities not readily available. I don't think international laws applies to children ration on a ship. They follow the minimum.

 

And beside, how much do you think a day car worker gets on a ship! The only reason I see cruise line not providing more service is $$.

[waterbug123]

See the comment about kindergarten class sizes in the US. One adult can watch a room of 15 kids easily when other resources are nearby.

 

Depends on the age of the kids. I'm a preschool director and I can tell you firsthand that one adult watching 15 3-year-olds is HUGE challenge.

 

15 children age 3 - 8 doesn't really seem a problem to me. In my state, a licensed day care can have 12 children to one adult in the room of 3-year-olds. More if the children are older. The care giver had access to a phone for fast help at all times, and I'm sure help would be there within just moments if needed.

 

As a preschool director I see a big problem with ONE person being in charge of 15 children, some of whom are as young as 3.

 

In my state, the allowed teacher/caregiver:child ratios are 1:12 for 3-year-olds, and 1:17 for 4-year-olds, and unfortunately you'll find most daycare centers go by that. However, in my professional opinion those ratios are way too high. In my center, our 3's ratio is 1:6 and our 4's ratio is 1:8, and we always have 2 teachers assigned to every classroom. There are just too many risks to having one teacher with 12-17 children that age. As someone mentioned, what happens when a child gets hurt, or has a tantrum and is hurting other children, or has an accident or throws up or any number of other things? One person needs to tend immediately to that child and someone else needs to be available to continue supervising the others. It's all fine and good to say pick up the phone and call for help or yell down the hallway for someone else, but sometimes there really isn't time to worry about that because the child in question needs your immediate and undivided attention.

[waterbug123]

Are you allowed also to be in a group of children with no other adult present?

 

If so that is not only unsafe for the child it is also unsafe for the adult.

 

Agreed wholeheartedly!

 

But that's the way schools work and most of them don't have CCTV in the classrooms. Do you think that every class should have two teachers at all times?

 

If you're talking about elementary schools, that's a different ballgame. The children are older, and can be sent for help in an emergency. You can't really tell a 3-year-old, "go to the office and get Ms. Susie and tell her we need her right away. It's an emergency."

[Byron_1978]

Trusting is fine until it is your child that gets abused, then are you willing to say "well I trusted them"? Remember too that the experience in the UK at present is that sexual abuse of children is often only revealed many years later. It is often easy to bully, groom, bribe or threaten small children into silence.

No I would be furious. If I knew who the person was and had access to him/her, I would be facing charges myself.

 

But you have no choice, you have to trust people.

The alternative is that you give up your job and home school your kid and not allow them to join group activities, not allow them to play sports, not allow them time with friends or familymembers,...

Keep in mind that in almost all cases, the offender was a family member or a friend or a coach, ...

 

That said, if I felt in any way uncomfortable with the people or the situation in the fun factory, I would immediately pull my son out.

I would also never put my son in an unmonitored situation such as the in-cabin babysitting.

[villauk]

Depends on the age of the kids. I'm a preschool director and I can tell you firsthand that one adult watching 15 3-year-olds is HUGE challenge.

 

 

Even though I agree with some of the points you have made, the OP said there were 11 children in the group in her post and the age range was 3-8 yrs. So for all we know her 2 could have been the youngest with the other 9 children being 8 year olds. Unless one specifically asks the children or their parents their age, no one has any idea how old the other kids are as it's an age 'range' (obviously the X staff would know). We also have no idea if there were any 3 year olds present, just in the same way that we don't know if all the other children were 8yrs ;). A 4 yr old and a 5yr old could quite easily be in Reception class at a UK school, not pre school or daycare.