Out of all the cut backs over the years, what is the one thing ...

[Tampa Girl]

 

He did point out that HAL must continue to court the existing passengers until they were able to offer something that would allow their replacement with the target group.

 

 

There you go! HAL really is trying to get rid of us "elderly passengers!"

 

No, their target passengers doesn't make much sense. For one thing, the 45 - 65 age group is likely still working and of the executive/professional class, which is likely to continue working as long as possible. They don't have the time, or possibly the inclination, to book long cruises to exotic ports.

 

Secondly, from the acquaintances that we have made over the last ten years in cruising HAL, I doubt if most of their passengers are on fixed incomes. Retirement incomes, but hardly confined to S.S. or other fixed incomes.

 

Ashford wants to improve profits and sell more excursions, so he eliminates such revenue-producing sites as the Crows Nest, at least on some of the ships, in favor of excursion marketeers. If HAL wants to attract the younger, high-income clientele, it has better start offering some decent onboard entertainment. Ashford, IMHO, is turning the ships into a vanilla, boring facsimile of its former self.

[CJcruzer]

Definitely the unlimited wine onboard, but I can understand why it’s gone, but what I really miss is a decent library and the book club n longer cruises.

 

 

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we had a book club on our recent spring 30 day Japan and No. Pacific crossing (although the choice of book was awful).

[Tampa Girl]

we had a book club on our recent spring 30 day Japan and No. Pacific crossing (although the choice of book was awful).

 

Not having traveled on any lines other than HAL and Cunard, do the "luxury" lines have libraries, for instance? Ashford apparently doesn't think libraries are worth keeping around because they are not revenue producing.

[RuthC]

Not having traveled on any lines other than HAL and Cunard, do the "luxury" lines have libraries, for instance?

I would call it a premium line, not luxury, but Oceania Riviera had a comfortable, extensive library. It was a long area, with small alcoves with shelves and easy chairs. There was a wall of windows on the other side of the passageway.

Quite nice.

[navybankerteacher]

I bolded two things. First, how many people do they expect to find in the lower end of that age bracket who own a home (and 2 cars) and don't have a mortgage? And do they really think people who usually fly first class will have HAL as their first thought when they consider a cruise?

 

I agree completely with your last sentence. They're trying to work on two very different corporate images, a strategy that IMO is unlikely to work.

 

Owning two cars is pretty normal for a "grown up" couple - but the idea of no mortgage raises serious questions. Anyone in a high tax bracket with much sense is going to be fairly leveraged at this time of low current interest rates and virtually certain higher rates coming.

 

Of course people who have down-sized may own outright -- but these are rarely in the 45-60 bracket.

 

If the set of goals is correctly stated, I think that Ashford is working with weak assumptions. There may be a few who fit that mold ---- but nowhere near enough to replace the reliable repeaters who (so far) are HAL's bread and butter - whom he is risking of driving away - ESPECIALLY IF THEY ARE THE HIGH SPENDERS , WHO WILL BE MOST LIKELY TO MIGRATE.

 

This won't be the first time that some hotshot B-school type arrogantly comes in and really fouls up a successful operation with application of untested theory.

[iancal]

We are in our 60's. About the only thing we use a ships library for is to pick up the occasional book exchange paperback. DW uses electronic. So do I. Plus throw away paperbacks. Although we read extensively we never sit in the library to read. We are either on deck somewhere comfortable or on our verandah. So for us the library is not a consideration since we do not assume we will find a book that interests us.

[taxmantoo]

This won't be the first time that some hotshot B-school type arrogantly comes in and really fouls up a successful operation with application of untested theory.

Happens every time a company hires a "human resources" expert as head of its "operations". :confused:

[G&G]

Very interesting thread. Having first sailed on Holland America almost 40 years ago, I guess I could write a book on things that have changed through the years that I would like to see again. But it will never happen. Things change. It's like asking to bring back the rotary phone (for those younger than 35 please google) though I still have a cell phone with rotary dial. :D

 

I prefer to let things be as is. Dam dollars maybe gone but now I have free laundry. No more bananas foster prepared at your dining table but now I get two free dinners at the Pinnacle. No more great gifts at trivia but now I get off 50% certain drinks and speciality restaurants, and on and on and on.

[iancal]

CHPURSER's post explains a lot about HAL over the past few years. Clearly more of the same until either the new model is fully implemented, there is a change in strategy and/or a change in leadership.

 

Apart from the attributes of their target market I really do think that the market is changing, as it always does. We travel in a different fashion from our parents. Our children travel in a different fashion from us. If HAL does not change they will go out of business. Either that, or whittle their fleet down to three or four ships.

[Aquahound]

I see people referring to HAL's "bread and butter" a lot on this board. It might be time to admit that HAL's "bread and butter" isn't working out too well for them anymore. They're a business and they need to chase the money. When a cruise line can't sell out a brand new ship while the demand on new ships of other lines are earning them up to twice the fare, it's a sign there's a problem.

[kazu]

I see people referring to HAL's "bread and butter" a lot on this board. It might be time to admit that HAL's "bread and butter" isn't working out too well for them anymore. They're a business and they need to chase the money. When a cruise line can't sell out a brand new ship while the demand on new ships of other lines are earning them up to twice the fare, it's a sign there's a problem.

 

Interesting perspective.

 

It might be worth remembering that the newest ship was built omitting some of the things that the "bread and butter" like - so, in complete disregard to the "bread and butter's" desires and, not built to appeal to the "bread and butter' (eg., a minimalist library and walk around promenade deck to name just a couple of things).

 

I don't think Mr. Ashford's team was expecting the "bread and butter" to rush to the new ship (nor should they) and thought they would attract the new clientele that they were seeking. JMO though.

[sail7seas]

I always chuckle at that term "fixed income", said as if it is some sort of negative. It certainly doesn't have to be, and for those of us who can afford to cruise, it isn't. What we spend on cruising is disposable income.

 

I know when I worked I was on a "fixed income" for many consecutive years because there were no raises whatsoever. At least in retirement I get a cost of living raise. While working, I had to save for retirement, but now that I'm there---I can spend! (that was a very hard adjustment!).

 

Orlando Ashford seems to have a disdain for those of us who are older, been around HAL for a while, and want to keep sailing the line. Sounds as if he just wants to use us until he can move to something better, then send us off on an ice floe---never to be heard from again.

I do hope I am hearing this incorrectly.

 

 

 

Ruth: I am reading it like you and wish to add. I am his target market and h eis very on the verge of needing to find a repalcement for me. No mortgage, college educated, , had two cars until I had no need for the second, no car loans and drive a car he might gauge as 'good enough'. . firrst class flyer and suite guest for a rridiculously high number of cruises. Mr Ashford, please do not forget to wave when you sail away without me: :) As long as his product suits me, I will continue to consider sailing his ships but he is quickly dulling my desires.

[iancal]

The memo only confirms our thoughts that HAL will continue to milk their older ships for as long as possible. This translates into band aid maintenance rather that complete replacement of engineering systems that are well past their best before date. Plus the addition of cabins to public areas to increase revenue but placing even more pressure on those aging systems. For us, all this points to an increased chance, small as it may be, of ending up in a deficient cabin. It is not just HAL's older ships either. We have the same issue with other cruise lines. It is simply that HAL appears to have a much older fleet. When we are down to the point of selecting a ship for an itinerary this plays a part in our decision.

 

I don't think that Ashford was brought in because HAL was successful. I strongly suspect he was brought in for the opposite reason-declining profits and revenue. That could be why the company went outside for a new leader.

[sail7seas]

There you go! HAL really is trying to get rid of us "elderly passengers!"

 

No, their target passengers doesn't make much sense. For one thing, the 45 - 65 age group is likely still working and of the executive/professional class, which is likely to continue working as long as possible. They don't have the time, or possibly the inclination, to book long cruises to exotic ports.

 

Secondly, from the acquaintances that we have made over the last ten years in cruising HAL, I doubt if most of their passengers are on fixed incomes. Retirement incomes, but hardly confined to S.S. or other fixed incomes.

 

Ashford wants to improve profits and sell more excursions, so he eliminates such revenue-producing sites as the Crows Nest, at least on some of the ships, in favor of excursion marketeers. If HAL wants to attract the younger, high-income clientele, it has better start offering some decent onboard entertainment. Ashford, IMHO, is turning the ships into a vanilla, boring facsimile of its former self.

 

As to elderly, Mr. Ashford, one must assume yo uknow you are a lso a day older each day and it beats the alternative. either get older or you do not. No everyonne is fortunate enough to live to grow old.

[Palm Bay Cruise Couple]

As far as the Cut-Backs, we do miss the Cruise Log, and as a afterthought, the paper sales flyers could be eliminated, they just get re-cycled.

[kohl57]

What an interesting conversation. Just the sort I used to enjoy sailing on the "old" Holland America Line which always attracted a 'nice' set of passengers. "Adult" (as opposed to old), mature in being confident in what they wanted from their vacation and quite content with the existing product. And intensely loyal to it, too... why just look at the postings here. Many of us liked "our" Holland America Line and we paid for it.. indeed we paid higher per diems for it, too, than now. Much higher. And got value from it in many small but intrinsic ways.

 

So the "Ashfording" of HAL has accomplished what? It has made many of us feel unwelcome or unappreciated in the New Order (not good things to do with your existing customer base). And it has actually reduced the per diems of the new product. It's cheaper in cost because it's... cheaper in quality and less distinctive. Cruise logs, fresh flowers and Indonesian rice table lunches aren't game changers on their own. But they contributed to what WE liked about OUR Holland America Line. And changed by someone who never even set foot on an HAL ship.

 

By the way, I am a "match" for almost all of the "ideal customer" profile elements of the new HAL. To a tee... and I'd rather stay home and paint the porch than cruise on HAL today.

[Tampa Girl]

 

I don't think that Ashford was brought in because HAL was successful. I strongly suspect he was brought in for the opposite reason-declining profits and revenue. That could be why the company went outside for a new leader.

 

I suspect that you are right. Which raises an interesting question: Has Ashford raised HAL's revenues substantially?

[innlady1]

This is one of the better, most civil threads we've had in a long while. Isn't it sad that it has to be about cutbacks? Amazingly, we finally have a thread in which we're all on the same page. If there's ever been a thread Mr. Ashford and the rest at HAL would benefit from reading, this is it. [emoji316]

 

 

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[Tampa Girl]

We are in our 60's. About the only thing we use a ships library for is to pick up the occasional book exchange paperback. DW uses electronic. So do I. Plus throw away paperbacks. Although we read extensively we never sit in the library to read. We are either on deck somewhere comfortable or on our verandah. So for us the library is not a consideration since we do not assume we will find a book that interests us.

 

But that wasn't my question. I understand that many people do not utilize a library, although many do. Both HAL's and Cunard's libraries have, from our experience, been highly used. And, we have always found an interesting book.

 

My question, however, to those of you who have sailed the luxury or premium lines, and since Ashford appears to emulate these other lines, have there been decent libraries on board? The Oceania, it has been posted, does have one.

[iancal]

I think he was brought in to reverse the trend and to squeeze out as much profit as possible until the fleet makeover could be accomplished. I think that it is clear that given HAL's fleet, and the changing demographics, that HAL was probably heading for another 'Waterloo' similar to what transpired before the Carnival take over. Something had to be done and like it or not Ashford was brought in from the outside to make it happen.

 

The question is how long will Carnival Corporate give him to reach his goal or to show fiscal signs that he is on the right track to achieving the goal. I think he could be stuck between a rock and a hard place.

[English_in_Spain]

Reading this and other threads I am becoming concerned.

 

I am sailing on the Veendam in December with a friend who will be on their first cruise. My late husband and I loved HAL and I have told my friend how great they are. My last HAL cruise was in 2009.

I chose this cruise as Veendam was one of my late husband's favourites back in the 1990s. I will will be scattering his ashes at sea during this cruise.

 

With flights from Spain to UK and UK to Miami, this whole trip is costing us a lot of money (over $20,000). Have I made a big mistake?

[3rdGenCunarder]

Reading this and other threads I am becoming concerned.

 

I am sailing on the Veendam in December with a friend who will be on their first cruise. My late husband and I loved HAL and I have told my friend how great they are. My last HAL cruise was in 2009.

I chose this cruise as Veendam was one of my late husband's favourites back in the 1990s. I will will be scattering his ashes at sea during this cruise.

 

With flights from Spain to UK and UK to Miami, this whole trip is costing us a lot of money (over $20,000). Have I made a big mistake?

 

Given the reasons for your cruise and for choosing Veendam, I'd say no. This could be a difficult and emotional trip for you, and the one thing that endures on HAL is the kind, caring staff that will look after you.

[3rdGenCunarder]

Interesting perspective.

 

It might be worth remembering that the newest ship was built omitting some of the things that the "bread and butter" like - so, in complete disregard to the "bread and butter's" desires and, not built to appeal to the "bread and butter' (eg., a minimalist library and walk around promenade deck to name just a couple of things).

 

I don't think Mr. Ashford's team was expecting the "bread and butter" to rush to the new ship (nor should they) and thought they would attract the new clientele that they were seeking. JMO though.

 

There are a lot of people who are attracted to a shiny new ship, and think anything more than 5 years old is too old. I agree that HAL is using the Koningsdam to try to attract them. Is the K'dam getting more first time HAL cruisers than the other ships? And if so, it would be interesting to know how many of them become second-time cruisers with HAL.

[kazu]

Given the reasons for your cruise and for choosing Veendam, I'd say no. This could be a difficult and emotional trip for you, and the one thing that endures on HAL is the kind, caring staff that will look after you.

 

Reading this and other threads I am becoming concerned.

 

I am sailing on the Veendam in December with a friend who will be on their first cruise. My late husband and I loved HAL and I have told my friend how great they are. My last HAL cruise was in 2009.

I chose this cruise as Veendam was one of my late husband's favourites back in the 1990s. I will will be scattering his ashes at sea during this cruise.

 

With flights from Spain to UK and UK to Miami, this whole trip is costing us a lot of money (over $20,000). Have I made a big mistake?

 

I agree with Kathy.

 

I had friends sail on the Veendam recently and they had glowing reports.

 

You know the changes you will see I think but not all changes are bad and, the one thing that remains consistent is the crew. A happy, good crew make the cruise.

 

I know you will have a most memorable cruise and hope that despite the sadness, both you and your friend have a lovely cruise.

[innlady1]

I think Mr. Ashford is off the mark.

 

My children are 40-something's. They are embarking on putting their children through college. One has a boat and keeps it in a slip at their yacht club. Likely the only boat they'll see anytime soon. Our other daughter enjoys travel...not cruising but land trips...to FL, to CA, etc. But for the next 10 to 15 years, they'll be paying college tuition. I find they are typical of their age group.

 

In addition, HAL has a reputation of being an "older folks cruise line". Therefore, I'd guess that if they wanted to cruise, it would be on Royal Caribbean or the like.

 

Reminds me of my last job in the private sector before buying our inn in'93. A small, privately held company. I was the Personnel Administrator. The owner hired a newly minted Harvard business school grad to turn around the company. Within 2 years, the Company was no longer. Very sad.

 

 

 

 

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Edited October 13, 2017 by innlady1