Mandatory Tipping ant

[MicCanberra]

2 hours ago, Texas Tillie said:

Let's face it, some Australians are holier than thou when it comes to tipping. The way I look at it, you don't tip in Australia, you do on cruise ships (unless they are tipping included). I tip on cruise ships that have that policy, I didn't in Australia. I also didn't have very good service in Australia, but am willing to admit that could have been a coincidence.

I agree, some Aussies are holier than thou on tipping just like some Yanks, Kiwis or Poms are. It sounds like I do as you do, tip where appropriate.

As for the service in varying countries, it is most likely a cultural thing due to what type of service you are used to but bad service can happen anywhere as well.

[Aquahound]

On 12/2/2018 at 4:42 PM, MicCanberra said:

Or they could just pay the staff properly so they do not have to really on the tips as well, The bar staff may be fine but what of the other staff, like room stewards etc. The cost to the customer would be around the same.

 

Oh, Ok.  I asked because of this ^^^^^ statement.  That sure sounds like you think they aren't paid properly...ergo, by your definition...are not satisfied.  

 

38 minutes ago, MicCanberra said:

I don't,  I was just explaining what my definition of properly was, due to someone (you btw) asking what I meant by properly.

 

Edited December 4, 2018 by Aquahound

[navybankerteacher]

3 hours ago, MicCanberra said:

 

3 hours ago, MicCanberra said:

... As for the service in varying countries, it is most likely a cultural thing due to what type of service you are used to but bad service can happen anywhere as well.

 

Because tipping is clearly intended to be related to the level of service (which is what many people cruise to enjoy) and everyone knows that the staff rely on tipping for a major share of their income, removing or significantly reducing auto-tips other than because of poor service must be seen for what it is:  sticking it to the folks who work for your enjoyment - just because you can.

 

If someone has a serious ethical concern about having people work for tips, then adhering to his ethical principals should mean not not sailing on a line which so compensates staff.  Removing a tip in such an environment just because one can is simply the act of a low life.

[MicCanberra]

32 minutes ago, navybankerteacher said:

 

 

Because tipping is clearly intended to be related to the level of service (which is what many people cruise to enjoy) and everyone knows that the staff rely on tipping for a major share of their income, removing or significantly reducing auto-tips other than because of poor service must be seen for what it is:  sticking it to the folks who work for your enjoyment - just because you can.

 

If someone has a serious ethical concern about having people work for tips, then adhering to his ethical principals should mean not not sailing on a line which so compensates staff.  Removing a tip in such an environment just because one can is simply the act of a low life.

Tipping is commonly given to certain workers for a service performed, as opposed to money offered for a product or as part of a purchase price.

If it is clearly to do with the level of service, why have fixed amounts such as 18% for a drink when cracking a beer is nothing like make a cocktail. 

And why call someone a low life just because they remove their tips, perhaps the level of service they received warranted that action.

You cannot have it both ways.

That said, I think tips should be included so that they are mandatory as done in a few cruise lines.

[navybankerteacher]

9 hours ago, MicCanberra said:

Tipping is commonly given to certain workers for a service performed, as opposed to money offered for a product or as part of a purchase price.

If it is clearly to do with the level of service, why have fixed amounts such as 18% for a drink when cracking a beer is nothing like make a cocktail. 

And why call someone a low life just because they remove their tips, perhaps the level of service they received warranted that action.

You cannot have it both ways.

That said, I think tips should be included so that they are mandatory as done in a few cruise lines.

If you read my post carefully, you would see that I am not trying to “...have it both ways”.

 

A tip IS something voluntarily given in recognition for service above the stated purchase price.

 

The fixed, involuntary 18% percent added to a drink is NOT a tip - it is a service charge

 

Please do not misquote me.   What I said was “...removing a tip ... JUST BECAUSE ONE CAN ... is simply the act of a low life.”  Which I believe it is.  Removing it BECAUSE OF BAD SERVICE is the appropriate reaction  when, AS YOU YOURSELF STATED :  “... the level of service they received warranted that action.”  Similarly, superior service might properly    be recognized by increasing the tip.

[mredandchis]

On 11/29/2018 at 7:44 PM, sparks1093 said:

I have no trouble not leaving a tip if that is the culture.

i lived in Germany for 4 years.  there is no tipping in Germany.  Everyone is paid a fair and decent salary for the job they do.  Actually American tipping is to some part unique.  Actually leaving a tip can be considered rude.  I know that sounds so backwards.  One thing i learnt early on was rounding the bill.  This saved her a headache,  This was before the Euro and lets say she would come to me with the bill and say it was 47.25 marks.  I would then hand her  50 marks and simply say 50 marks.  which loosely meant to keep the change.  I am just saying, the way we think in america isnt always the same world wide.  So you are right, there shouldnt be any trouble. As they say when in Rome do as the Romans do.  

 

[mredandchis]

Been reading this thread and find the opinions interesting.  In the days before this automatic tipping we would get envelopes and had to find or have cash and fill the envelopes and pass them out on the last day.  Ok and we got to say thank you.  But there were more envelopes than just the waiter in the MDR and the Steward.  And i always for the most part felt compelled in my spirit to tip more than what the lines recommended. So then the cruise lines started this automatic thing.  Now ok lets say tip for Dining staff,  first off I got the hostesses and they are trying to get me a table i requested or a waiter i would like.  They dont want me to wait and they are trying their best.  And now there are 3 people serving my table.  And usually the service is great.  But sometimes one of those 3 people are running off to get your orders and getting them back to the head waiter so you may enjoy a hot entree.  You dont see it but they are still serving you.  Then what about those waite staff up on Lido.  People clearing tables so you can sit down now.  People removing dirty dishes so you can enjoy a sweet dessert.    The person keeping the line filled with fresh made food or the person making omelets and quickly and perfectly.  So many people serving you and doing it with a smile.  And when there is a line we get to complain.  But heck there is only 2500 people on the boat.   I pay that gratuty because i am thankful for all they do.  Now SOME kinda stand out.  Some make the cruise better.   These people work 12 hour days with a little time off during a week.  Yet they are always smiling.  They are always serving you.  When certain ones stand out I always hunt them down like a wolf and slide some cash into thier hand.  I have found THOSE personal tips are not required to go to the pool.  And they do appreciate it.  Now if i get bad service from anyone, I like to go find the boss and let them know.  I feel i pay this automatic gratuity to get good service.  Dont make me what to pull back a portion.   I find for the most part and specially more recently that the service is impeccable.   Well ok maybe the bar waiters on the lido seem to pull disappearing acts.  And waiting on a drink sometimes seems a little long.  But i just had a good one a 10er early on in the cruise and I am never needy for a drink afterwards.  This is all my opinion, and it works for me.  

[MicCanberra]

7 hours ago, navybankerteacher said:

 

 

The fixed, involuntary 18% percent added to a drink is NOT a tip - it is a service charge

 

And yet some of the cruise lines themselves call the drinks charge gratuities.

And NCL has a service charge that can be removed (albeit after the cruise in writing and with reason).

What's in a name hey.

[Velvetwater]

 

For the most part, North American folk and those that live elsewhere will never agree on this issue. As much as we argue until we are blue in the face that will be so. I am British so you can have a pretty good guess which side I am on.

 

However I have 2 points from my own experience:

 

I have never quite understood where the all the 'If you include grats in the price then cruise costs will go up'. I have cruised and shopped for cruises that include grats (whether it is NCL's deal, Marella, Carnival Oz or P&O Oz ) and when looking at the voyages, age of ship and what you are getting I see hardly a difference in price  to similar voyages and this has been for a few years now. 

 

Secondly, I have seen many folk from the US discuss how service elsewhere is not on par with back home (not in this thread much but you know what I am talking about). Many countries around the globe prefer prompt, unobtrusive service with a smidge of friendliness and prefer not to be disturbed too much whilst eating. We don't particularly need anyone to tell us to have a good day or anything like that or have to use our first name- If you do then it's OK but we don't expect or need it. Then there are language barriers which can obstruct service on occasion.

 

 

[navybankerteacher]

1 hour ago, MicCanberra said:

And yet some of the cruise lines themselves call the drinks charge gratuities.

And NCL has a service charge that can be removed (albeit after the cruise in writing and with reason).

What's in a name hey.

 

Good points.  Of, course it is important to not believe everything a cruise line tells you when they want you to think how inexpensive their cruises are.  Things like adding 18% to the price of a drink and calling it a service charge couldn’t be done by many other businesses.

 

Could you imagine being at your local grocery store and, after checking out $5 for your eggs, $3 for your butter, $2.50 for the bread, $11.25 for the cake, and $8.25 for the ground beef—- the clerk added $5.40 for tallying up your order?

 

[RocketMan275]

2 hours ago, Velvetwater said:

 

For the most part, North American folk and those that live elsewhere will never agree on this issue. As much as we argue until we are blue in the face that will be so. I am British so you can have a pretty good guess which side I am on.

 

However I have 2 points from my own experience:

 

I have never quite understood where the all the 'If you include grats in the price then cruise costs will go up'. I have cruised and shopped for cruises that include grats (whether it is NCL's deal, Marella, Carnival Oz or P&O Oz ) and when looking at the voyages, age of ship and what you are getting I see hardly a difference in price  to similar voyages and this has been for a few years now. 

 

Secondly, I have seen many folk from the US discuss how service elsewhere is not on par with back home (not in this thread much but you know what I am talking about). Many countries around the globe prefer prompt, unobtrusive service with a smidge of friendliness and prefer not to be disturbed too much whilst eating. We don't particularly need anyone to tell us to have a good day or anything like that or have to use our first name- If you do then it's OK but we don't expect or need it. Then there are language barriers which can obstruct service on occasion.

 

 

Including grats will increase the price because, ultimately, the customer pays the complete cost of the product.  No one will pay the crew costs except the passengers.  Including the grats in the price of the cruise has tax implications to the crew.  In many jurisdictions, gratuities are not taxable income.  Salaries paid by the cruise line are taxable.  Consequently, the crew costs to the cruise line will increase since the cruise line will have to increase wages to cover the costs of taxation.  Therefore, either the cruise line will have lower profit or the cruise price will increase.  BTW, cruise line profits are what keeps cruise lines in business. Lower profits mean fewer cruise options.

[Velvetwater]

44 minutes ago, RocketMan275 said:

Including grats will increase the price because, ultimately, the customer pays the complete cost of the product.  No one will pay the crew costs except the passengers.  Including the grats in the price of the cruise has tax implications to the crew.  In many jurisdictions, gratuities are not taxable income.  Salaries paid by the cruise line are taxable.  Consequently, the crew costs to the cruise line will increase since the cruise line will have to increase wages to cover the costs of taxation.  Therefore, either the cruise line will have lower profit or the cruise price will increase.  BTW, cruise line profits are what keeps cruise lines in business. Lower profits mean fewer cruise options.

 

As someone who has cruised with different lines and constantly price checked on grats inc and not cruises I find this to be false so far.

 

This is especially true when comparing European/US grat sailings with Aussie non grat sailings of similar types. P&O UK's prices for their late season next year (the cruises that have no service charge after May) have also stayed constant as of this afternoon and are almost the same as this season just gone when you allow for general year inflation. 

 

Of course there will lower profits for a cruise line but ultimately the cruise industry now serves a much more multicultural base than it's US customer base of yesteryear. Lines know that if they want to attract Aussies and Asians and others they are going to have to offer a good price and changed product for their needs and it's pretty much only the US that has the tipping culture we speak of here. That international chunk of gold is worth much more than the loss you speak of.

 

 

[sloopsailor]

40 minutes ago, Velvetwater said:

 

As someone who has cruised with different lines and constantly price checked on grats inc and not cruises I find this to be false so far.

 

This is especially true when comparing European/US grat sailings with Aussie non grat sailings of similar types. P&O UK's prices for their late season next year (the cruises that have no service charge after May) have also stayed constant as of this afternoon and are almost the same as this season just gone when you allow for general year inflation. 

 

Of course there will lower profits for a cruise line but ultimately the cruise industry now serves a much more multicultural base than it's US customer base of yesteryear. Lines know that if they want to attract Aussies and Asians and others they are going to have to offer a good price and changed product for their needs and it's pretty much only the US that has the tipping culture we speak of here. That international chunk of gold is worth much more than the loss you speak of.

 

If you really believe what you wrote, you are very naive.

 

Assume a ship has 3,000 passengers, and each is charged $13 per day, or $91 per person for a 7 day cruise. Simple math reveals that this equals $273,000 per cruise in gratuities collected. If the passengers aren't going to pay those tips, the cruise line will have to make up for it just to retain it's staff. That's $14,196,000 per year that the cruise line will have to divert from their profits to the tipped staff for that one ship. No company would voluntarily give up that much revenue for one ship, much less the loss of revenue when multiplied by all the ships in their fleet.

 

Nope, never gonna happen.  Prices will rise, perhaps gradually over several months, but they will rise to pay the staff what they are expecting. To think differently is being very clueless as to what large companies MUST do to satisfy their shareholders, and losing over $14 million per ship is not going to make those shareholders very happy. 

Edited December 5, 2018 by sloopsailor

[navybankerteacher]

What seems to escape many peoples notice when they post here is the fact that the experts in the field (the cruise lines) seem to believe that they understand how to run their business better than the occasional customers who do not like the way they run their business.

 

For one reason or another most US based lines adhere to the tipping protocol.  If it did not work for them, they would would not adhere to it;  unless, of course, they are part of an international conspiracy specifically devoted to annoying people who do not believe in tipping. Since I find that unlikely, I am left with the notion that they believe it is best for their bottom line, which makes them want to stay in business, which gives everyone here the opportunity to sail on their ships.

 

Like it or not, it is the way things are. Live with it, or find other recipients for your vacation spending.

[cruisemom42]

1 hour ago, sloopsailor said:

 

If you really believe what you wrote, you are very naive.

 

Assume a ship has 3,000 passengers, and each is charged $13 per day, or $91 per person for a 7 day cruise. Simple math reveals that this equals $273,000 per cruise in gratuities collected. If the passengers aren't going to pay those tips, the cruise line will have to make up for it just to retain it's staff. That's $14,196,000 per year that the cruise line will have to divert from their profits to the tipped staff for that one ship. No company would voluntarily give up that much revenue for one ship, much less the loss of revenue when multiplied by all the ships in their fleet.

 

Nope, never gonna happen.  Prices will rise, perhaps gradually over several months, but they will rise to pay the staff what they are expecting. To think differently is being very clueless as to what large companies MUST do to satisfy their shareholders, and losing over $14 million per ship is not going to make those shareholders very happy. 

 

There are some lines out there (non US) that seem to make it work.  There are no "suggested" gratuities and yet the fare does seem comparable -- maybe a few dollars difference but not as much as the fare + suggested gratuity amount. Which makes me doubt the nay-sayers who have posited that fares will rise MORE than the current base fare + gratuities.  

 

One thing that most equations have not taken into consideration is that, under the current method, folks are free to remove gratuities if they so choose. If a certain percentage DO remove them (and ship personnel have posted that this is common), the total pool of gratuities collected is likely less than would be obtained by including the gratuity in the fare and making everyone pay it.  So it's possible that they may actually not have to charge passengers any more, and maybe even a tad less by including it.

[MicCanberra]

Yes, lots of examples where the cruise industry has thrived on one method or the other, depending on their clientele. 

[mredandchis]

12 hours ago, Velvetwater said:

 

For the most part, North American folk and those that live elsewhere will never agree on this issue. As much as we argue until we are blue in the face that will be so. I am British so you can have a pretty good guess which side I am on.

 

However I have 2 points from my own experience:

 

I have never quite understood where the all the 'If you include grats in the price then cruise costs will go up'. I have cruised and shopped for cruises that include grats (whether it is NCL's deal, Marella, Carnival Oz or P&O Oz ) and when looking at the voyages, age of ship and what you are getting I see hardly a difference in price  to similar voyages and this has been for a few years now. 

 

Secondly, I have seen many folk from the US discuss how service elsewhere is not on par with back home (not in this thread much but you know what I am talking about). Many countries around the globe prefer prompt, unobtrusive service with a smidge of friendliness and prefer not to be disturbed too much whilst eating. We don't particularly need anyone to tell us to have a good day or anything like that or have to use our first name- If you do then it's OK but we don't expect or need it. Then there are language barriers which can obstruct service on occasion.

 

 

Here here. I have been to Great Britain on a number of holidays and the service was always reasonable.  And i would even say friendly as int some areas being a Yank is met with surprise.  The first meal I had in a place I believe was called the Happy Eater I did feel strange not leaving a tip, but then it also felt strange to be paying in pound sterling and trying to sort that out.  But I can imagine the feeling would be very unique coming the other way.  I do think if they cut out the tipping on cruise ships the ticket price would raise a hair but nothing people would notice.   I think the current tipping allows the line to increase profits by a smidge.

 

[mjkacmom]

10 hours ago, cruisemom42 said:

 

There are some lines out there (non US) that seem to make it work.  There are no "suggested" gratuities and yet the fare does seem comparable -- maybe a few dollars difference but not as much as the fare + suggested gratuity amount. Which makes me doubt the nay-sayers who have posited that fares will rise MORE than the current base fare + gratuities.  

 

One thing that most equations have not taken into consideration is that, under the current method, folks are free to remove gratuities if they so choose. If a certain percentage DO remove them (and ship personnel have posted that this is common), the total pool of gratuities collected is likely less than would be obtained by including the gratuity in the fare and making everyone pay it.  So it's possible that they may actually not have to charge passengers any more, and maybe even a tad less by including it.

NCL has a different all inclusive pricing structure for those who book outside the US, and yes, it’s more expensive, but the DSC and gratuities on perks are included in the base price.

[sft429]

14 hours ago, RocketMan275 said:

Including grats will increase the price because, ultimately, the customer pays the complete cost of the product.  No one will pay the crew costs except the passengers.  

2

 

Just who do you expect to pay the cost of anything onboard a cruise ship if not the passengers?

[RocketMan275]

5 minutes ago, sft429 said:

 

Just who do you expect to pay the cost of anything onboard a cruise ship if not the passengers?

It amazes me that anyone would think that someone else than the passengers pay for something on a cruise line. 

Edited December 5, 2018 by RocketMan275

[Velvetwater]

17 hours ago, sloopsailor said:

 

If you really believe what you wrote, you are very naive.

 

Assume a ship has 3,000 passengers, and each is charged $13 per day, or $91 per person for a 7 day cruise. Simple math reveals that this equals $273,000 per cruise in gratuities collected. If the passengers aren't going to pay those tips, the cruise line will have to make up for it just to retain it's staff. That's $14,196,000 per year that the cruise line will have to divert from their profits to the tipped staff for that one ship. No company would voluntarily give up that much revenue for one ship, much less the loss of revenue when multiplied by all the ships in their fleet.

 

Nope, never gonna happen.  Prices will rise, perhaps gradually over several months, but they will rise to pay the staff what they are expecting. To think differently is being very clueless as to what large companies MUST do to satisfy their shareholders, and losing over $14 million per ship is not going to make those shareholders very happy. 

 

I have no idea why you state 'never gonna happen' when it already has...just not in waters near you. P&O UK just recently announced this very news for May next year. I don't think I can be naive when I am looking at cultures past my own.

 

Also, you are still not seeing the bigger picture.  $14 million per annum is literally a drop in a the ocean when you realise that the British,Asian ,Oz and other cruise markets are booming compared to North American ones. The US will always have ships for sure, but I would not be surprised if at some point a majority of cruise voyages are elsewhere in the future with cruise lines using a business model to suit these clients. Then the grat culture that dominates the US cruise industry will be obsolete in most voyages and less common.

 

For me, I can really see the cruise industry becoming less 'US centric'  and more international in the future.

 

Edited December 5, 2018 by Velvetwater

[GUT2407]

8 minutes ago, Velvetwater said:

 

I have no idea why you state 'never gonna happen' when it already has...just not in waters near you. P&O UK just recently announced this very news for May next year. I don't think I can be naive when I am looking at cultures past my own.

 

Also, you are still not seeing the bigger picture.  $14 million per annum is literally a drop in a the ocean when you realise that the British,Asian ,Oz and other cruise markets are booming compared to North American ones. The US will always have ships for sure, but I would not be surprised if at some point a majority of cruise voyages are elsewhere in the future with cruise lines using a business model to suit these clients. Then the grat culture that dominates the US cruise industry will be obsolete in most voyages and less common.

 

For me, I can really see the cruise industry becoming less 'US centric'  and more international in the future.

 

And the lines under the Carnival Umbrella have been doing it in Aus for about 15 years.

[MicCanberra]

Both systems work.

X and Royal have switched (several years ago already) to include the gratuities while cruising out of Australia and compete well with the other lines that do it no matter where they sail. X and Royal are doing so well they are sending more ships, so profits can't be suffering.

[Texas Tillie]

Who knows what the future will bring. Bottom line, if you have a problem with the lines that add gratuities at this time, DON"T SAIL ON THEM! How hard is that?

[GUT2407]

21 minutes ago, Texas Tillie said:

Who knows what the future will bring. Bottom line, if you have a problem with the lines that add gratuities at this time, DON"T SAIL ON THEM! How hard is that?

And if you sail with a line that lets you remove them, do what suits you. Really it’s no one else’s business.