Carnival Corporation back in court

[satxdiver]

Miami Herald reports that top Carnival Corp executives have been ordered to appear in federal court over ocean pollution violations which Carnival Corp had been convicted in 2016, paid a fine and was sentenced to 5 years probation.  Current court order concerns 6 probation violations.  The federal judge could order that none of the 100+ ships could dock in US ports.   Original conviction was due to Princess dumping sewage illegally.  

 

https://www.miamiherald.com/news/business/tourism-cruises/article230894614.html

Edited May 29, 2019 by satxdiver

[Cruisin Kay D]

WOW, that could certainly affect my 2 upcoming cruises this summer!!  We have a 21 nt Holland cruise all around Alaska mid-June and a 13 nt Princess cruise up east coast of US & Canada to Quebec!!

[neverbeenhere]

I’ve been reading a bit about this case and I’m thinking the CEO of Carnival better get off his throne make sure the crap stays where it should.  It would be a public convenience and I know they have the facilities to be flush with the kind of cash they will need to dispose of this issue. 

 

Plunging deeper into the pile, I found paper work about the past indiscretions, but I am not privy to all the information out there. 

[donaldsc]

It will never happen but it would be great if Carnival was banned from US ports.  That would teach them not to do it again.  More likely is a very minimal fine and a warning not to do it again.

 

DON

[chengkp75]

3 hours ago, donaldsc said:

It will never happen but it would be great if Carnival was banned from US ports.  That would teach them not to do it again.  More likely is a very minimal fine and a warning not to do it again.

 

DON

While this is fairly old news, I guess it hasn't been discussed on the Princess board like it has on the other lines'.  This came about because of the Princess settlement for environmental violations that resulted in the $40 million fine and 5 years probation.  While this recent case mentions 6 violations, it has been reported that the court appointed auditor, during the first two years of Carnival's probation, experienced 800+ violations of environmental regulations, and this is what has caught the judge's ire.  The simple fact that these violations are occurring 35 years after the regulations went into effect is what has made the US step up with enforcement and stiff penalties.  The fact that Carnival has apparently not lived up to the terms of the probation settlement has really struck a nerve with the judge.  The fact that no one from Carnival was present (only their attorneys) were present at the previous hearing regarding the probation violations only adds to the atmosphere that Carnival really "doesn't get it".

 

While the terms of the newest deal are not public, until the judge accepts or rejects them, I can base some thoughts on the outcomes of previous settlements like this.  First, for a second violation, DOJ typically wants a fine to be 10 times the original, so around $400 million.  Second, while the judge won't ban all Carnival ships from the US, it would not surprise me if she picks one or two of the most egregious "frequent flyers" on the 800+ violations list to be banned for a year or two.  Third, her demand that Carnival's senior management be present may signal that she intends for them to plead guilty to felony environmental charges, and fit them with ankle monitors, which has been done to other shipping company executives for less egregious violations.

 

It will be interesting to see what Monday brings.

[ontheweb]

54 minutes ago, chengkp75 said:

While this is fairly old news, I guess it hasn't been discussed on the Princess board like it has on the other lines'.  This came about because of the Princess settlement for environmental violations that resulted in the $40 million fine and 5 years probation.  While this recent case mentions 6 violations, it has been reported that the court appointed auditor, during the first two years of Carnival's probation, experienced 800+ violations of environmental regulations, and this is what has caught the judge's ire.  The simple fact that these violations are occurring 35 years after the regulations went into effect is what has made the US step up with enforcement and stiff penalties.  The fact that Carnival has apparently not lived up to the terms of the probation settlement has really struck a nerve with the judge.  The fact that no one from Carnival was present (only their attorneys) were present at the previous hearing regarding the probation violations only adds to the atmosphere that Carnival really "doesn't get it".

 

While the terms of the newest deal are not public, until the judge accepts or rejects them, I can base some thoughts on the outcomes of previous settlements like this.  First, for a second violation, DOJ typically wants a fine to be 10 times the original, so around $400 million.  Second, while the judge won't ban all Carnival ships from the US, it would not surprise me if she picks one or two of the most egregious "frequent flyers" on the 800+ violations list to be banned for a year or two.  Third, her demand that Carnival's senior management be present may signal that she intends for them to plead guilty to felony environmental charges, and fit them with ankle monitors, which has been done to other shipping company executives for less egregious violations.

 

It will be interesting to see what Monday brings.

Do you know which ships would constitute "the most egregious frequent flyers"?

 

Personally punishing top executives would truly be an eye opener.

 

And it will truly be interesting what happens Monday. I am sure all the boards that deal with Carnival corporation ships will be extremely busy.

 

[chengkp75]

1 hour ago, ontheweb said:

Do you know which ships would constitute "the most egregious frequent flyers"?

 

Personally punishing top executives would truly be an eye opener.

 

And it will truly be interesting what happens Monday. I am sure all the boards that deal with Carnival corporation ships will be extremely busy.

 

I didn't do an analysis of the 800+ violations to see which ships were the worst, what simply struck me was the breadth across the fleet and across the several lines where violations were noted, and where violations were noted on other ships after a violation was reported by the auditor on one ship.  That should have triggered corporate's response to inform all ships that that particular violation, at the least, should not happen again, and what was being done to prevent it from happening again.

 

Princess basically restructured their entire senior management during the plea deal negotiations for the initial violations, so that their corporate team would not be convicted felons, letting the previous officers go.

[richsea]

Gee, I wonder who ultimately pays the $40 million? I would love to see the judge nix the deal, & temporarily prohibit them from porting in US waters. THAT would get their attention.

[chengkp75]

1 hour ago, richsea said:

Gee, I wonder who ultimately pays the $40 million? I would love to see the judge nix the deal, & temporarily prohibit them from porting in US waters. THAT would get their attention.

That $40 million was already paid.  The shareholders paid in reduced dividends and the cruising public paid through higher fares.  That is why DOJ looks to make a second fine one that can't be recouped from the customer easily.  A $400 million fine is about half the cost of a new ship, so Carnival's bottom line will take a significant hit.

[richsea]

1 hour ago, chengkp75 said:

That $40 million was already paid.  The shareholders paid in reduced dividends and the cruising public paid through higher fares.  That is why DOJ looks to make a second fine one that can't be recouped from the customer easily.  A $400 million fine is about half the cost of a new ship, so Carnival's bottom line will take a significant hit.

And the fact that the original $40 million wasn’t enough of a deterrent for Carnival speaks volumes about the Carnival culture. I hope you are right regarding the execs wearing ankle monitors. And they should be required to notify their shareholders about it. It seems that’s all they care about.

[Micahs Grandad]

1 hour ago, richsea said:

And the fact that the original $40 million wasn’t enough of a deterrent for Carnival speaks volumes about the Carnival culture. I hope you are right regarding the execs wearing ankle monitors. And they should be required to notify their shareholders about it. It seems that’s all they care about.

Think senior management should spend some quality time in prison. That would surely get their attention and the attention of senior management of other companies that violate the law.

[neverbeenhere]

If they are going to be banned from US ports, let’s make it October through March as we don’t have any Carnival Corporation cruises during that time period. 

[Sweet Dreams]

So disappointing 

[EDDY0827]

Orange is the new black. Put senior management in prison for a year or two and we will see a dramatic change in attitude about pollution from CCL.

Incarcerate senior management first, if that doesn't get the desired results, then start banning CCL ships from U.S. territorial waters.

 

Edited May 29, 2019 by EDDY0827

[richsea]

1 hour ago, Micah's Grandad said:

Think senior management should spend some quality time in prison. That would surely get their attention and the attention of senior management of other companies that violate the law.

Good idea, this BS has been going on with not only Carnival, but the other lines as well. I recall that Royal Caribbean was caught polluting back in the 90s. At some point they have to put the environment before the dollar. It’s sickening to think of the “Save the Waves” lip service crap they’ve  pushed, while behind the scenes they keep on doing what’s most beneficial to their bottom line.

[Micahs Grandad]

7 minutes ago, richsea said:

Good idea, this BS has been going on with not only Carnival, but the other lines as well. I recall that Royal Caribbean was caught polluting back in the 90s. At some point they have to put the environment before the dollar. It’s sickening to think of the “Save the Waves” lip service crap they’ve  pushed, while behind the scenes they keep on doing what’s most beneficial to their bottom line.

What I really find annoying is when they disguise cutbacks with doing it to save the ocean.

[MissP22]

2 hours ago, Micah's Grandad said:

What I really find annoying is when they disguise cutbacks with doing it to save the ocean.

Like eliminating straws unless you ask for one. 

[mcrcruiser]

The Federal judge in time will decide the fate of Carnival Corp  .We waited this long & now June is around the corner . What ever the decision it will definitely have a heavy impact on the cruise industry as a whole.

[Micahs Grandad]

15 minutes ago, MissP22 said:

Like eliminating straws unless you ask for one. 

exactly

[Ergates The Ant]

This is truly shocking!

Havent booked a cruise this year, and it looks like we probably won’t after all.

Im sure we can find a better way to enjoy ourselves and spend our money,  than by helping to support these crooks.

And not only are they crooks but they are stupid ones as well! Did they not understand the meaning of probation? Just carried on regardless!

[skynight]

7 hours ago, neverbeenhere said:

If they are going to be banned from US ports, let’s make it October through March as we don’t have any Carnival Corporation cruises during that time period. 

October through April is the peak winter season when all the North American brands sail from U.S. ports 3, 4, 5 times per week. Preventing this would kill the industry. I don't see this as a viable ruling. Imagine how many U.S. port jobs, not Carnival Corp jobs,  would be affected.

[ontheweb]

10 hours ago, chengkp75 said:

I didn't do an analysis of the 800+ violations to see which ships were the worst, what simply struck me was the breadth across the fleet and across the several lines where violations were noted, and where violations were noted on other ships after a violation was reported by the auditor on one ship.  That should have triggered corporate's response to inform all ships that that particular violation, at the least, should not happen again, and what was being done to prevent it from happening again.

 

Princess basically restructured their entire senior management during the plea deal negotiations for the initial violations, so that their corporate team would not be convicted felons, letting the previous officers go.

I tried to do the research to find the answer, but was unsuccessful. 

 

I did find that the original complaint that led to the $40 million fine plus the probation was from the Caribbean Princess.

 

https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/princess-cruise-lines-pay-largest-ever-criminal-penalty-deliberate-vessel-pollution

[bemis12]

17 hours ago, satxdiver said:

Miami Herald reports that top Carnival Corp executives have been ordered to appear in federal court over ocean pollution violations which Carnival Corp had been convicted in 2016, paid a fine and was sentenced to 5 years probation.  Current court order concerns 6 probation violations.  The federal judge could order that none of the 100+ ships could dock in US ports.   Original conviction was due to Princess dumping sewage illegally.  

 

https://www.miamiherald.com/news/business/tourism-cruises/article230894614.html

 

The Feds and Carnvial "reached a deal".  I can guarantee you that any deal Carnival agreed to didn't include being excluded from US ports, nor any jail time for execs.

 

The judge is not REQUIRED to accept whatever the deal is, but most likely will.

Edited May 29, 2019 by bemis12

[DrivesLikeMario]

All the cruise lines do it.  If anyone thinks they don't, they are very naive.  It's just that some get caught doing it.  The right people will be paid off, the ships will not be banned and this stuff will continue to happen (unfortunately). 

[neverbeenhere]

CEO sentenced to three weeks swabbing the poop deck, plus the corporation $ 110 million fine seems likely. 

 

 

Of course, hundreds of re-training courses for the crew and officers. 

Edited May 29, 2019 by neverbeenhere