What country are you in when you're on board?

[RoyalBee]

Canadians can only be in the US legally for 6 months out of a rolling year. If I take a cruise from a US port, do I have to count any of my days on board the ship (i.e., not in port) as being in the US?

[cb at sea]

You are under the LAWS of the country in which the ship is REGISTERED.

[RoyalBee]

So does that mean the minute you get on board in Fort Lauderdale (for example), you are no longer considered to be in the US for the purposes of counting your presence in the US?

[Essiesmom]

Once you leave the US port and cross the 'line' for international waters (200 miles?) you are not in the US.  There is a 12 mile limit, and a 200 mile limit...Don't know which applies when.  EM

[ed01106]

For the purpose of your question, ignore cb’s answer it is utterly wrong.  While some laws are based on the registration of the ship immigration control doesn’t.

 

The day in port counts as being in USA.  Days in foreign ports definitely don’t nor would sea days between foreign ports.  Not 100% certain if you had a sea day before arriving at first port if that would count or not.

 

 

[leaveitallbehind]

1 hour ago, cb at sea said:

You are under the LAWS of the country in which the ship is REGISTERED.

 

....which, like so many of your responses, has nothing to do with the OP's question.  OP, please ignore this response.

Edited October 16, 2019 by leaveitallbehind

[sparks1093]

1 hour ago, Essiesmom said:

Once you leave the US port and cross the 'line' for international waters (200 miles?) you are not in the US.  There is a 12 mile limit, and a 200 mile limit...Don't know which applies when.  EM

According to the NOAA website: 

Maritime limits and boundaries for the United States are measured from the official U.S. baseline, recognized as the low-water line along the coast as marked on the NOAA nautical charts in accordance with the articles of the Law of the Sea. The Office of Coast Survey depicts on its nautical charts the territorial sea (12 nautical miles), contiguous zone (24nm), and exclusive economic zone (200nm, plus maritime boundaries with adjacent/opposite countries).

 

I'm certainly no expert, but in all of my years in the Navy outside of 12 nautical miles was considered international waters for the purposes of the ship's store (in international waters we didn't pay federal tax on the cigarettes we purchased). My guess is that you are considered to be in the US within the 12 nm limit and outside the US when outside that limit for the purposes of a visa.

Edited October 16, 2019 by sparks1093

[Cirdan]

On past we were able to buy postcard and stamps (look on Wikipedia, if the two terms are not familiar to you 😉 ) from the flag country, and send them from the ship. Unfortunately on recent cruises, this was not more possible.

 

About the country: this is complex. You are on the ship, and different country rules could apply (and that changes also during navigation). If you are in port, the territory is from the port country (also if it is outside custom and immigration, like the "international part" of an airport, but many laws of flag country are valid (and not on the territory rules). Additionally, some rules do not apply. Work hours are usually not the same as in flag country (e.g. not Malta [so European] rules).

 

Remember: a country has not a single border, but many: one physical, one for immigration, one for customs, etc. On sea you have the area you can have control, and the area you have exclusive control for economic resources (but you cannot forbid other country ship to enter).

[Flatbush Flyer]

2 hours ago, cb at sea said:

You are under the LAWS of the country in which the ship is REGISTERED.

Not exactly. It's far more complicated than just the issue of the adjudication of criminal charges. 

In any case, you haven't answered OP's question. Simply put: Once his/her ship leaves the US, it's not in the US. And OP has a cruise line issued itinerary to prove it.

[PTMary]

1 hour ago, ed01106 said:

..... ignore cb’s answer it is utterly wrong .....

 

 

 

At least he is consistent with all of his answers. 🤣

[LHT28]

it is complicated

I would call the US Immigration & ask

also

see section 2  #4

https://www.congress.gov/bill/116th-congress/house-bill/3241/text

 

They are working on changes  according to  CSA

https://www.snowbirds.org/senators-rubio-scott-introduce-canadian-snowbird-act 

[Cruzaholic41]

When the ship is moored in a US port, it and it’s passengers are in the US. Once those lines are off and the ship leaves US waters, you are not in the US and do not need to count those days for the purpose you’re describing. 

 

Perhaps a good question for Chengkp or Aquahound. 

Edited October 16, 2019 by Cruzaholic41

[Heidi13]

4 hours ago, RoyalBee said:

Canadians can only be in the US legally for 6 months out of a rolling year. If I take a cruise from a US port, do I have to count any of my days on board the ship (i.e., not in port) as being in the US?

As a fellow Canadian that winters in SoCal & cruises, I researched the requirements extensively prior to our 2015 World Cruise. We considered a R/T World Cruise from L/A, but determined that regardless of the ship's registry, all days aboard could be considered as being in the US. Having departed US waters made no difference.

 

Since we planned to be in the US for a couple of months before the cruise, then return home for a couple of weeks at Christmas, we found another challenge. If we were in the US for > 30 days, then spent < 30 days in Canada before returning to the US, they may consider that you never left the US.

 

Both were open for interpretation by the Border Guards, so we opted not to take the R/T cruise, as the penalty for exceeding 180 days are significant.

 

Suggest researching and checking with US Customs & Border Protection.

[ldubs]

Huh, I would have never thought of this twist to Visa rules.  I doubt I will ever be faced with this but still very interesting and good to know. 

 

What kind of has me scratching my head, is if there is a difference between leaving the USA by ship or by airplane?  I assume if you leave for another country by plane then it is not counted as time in the USA.  Or, for all I know maybe it is.  

[LHT28]

1 hour ago, ldubs said:

Huh, I would have never thought of this twist to Visa rules.  I doubt I will ever be faced with this but still very interesting and good to know. 

 

Canadian citizens do not require a VISA

There is  a certain number of days you can spend in the USA before they want you to pay US taxes  😉

People for other Countries  that have an  ESTA   if they spend  30 days in US then go to Canada or Mexico for 30 days  it is counted  under their  max 90 day  stay rule  so they can only stay another 30 days per entry

[martincath]

While exceeding six months in one visit is a violation of US immigration law, so being deported or even jailed is a possibility, the far-more-likely issue for us Canadians is falling foul of the US 'Substantial Presence' test by the IRS - you can easily rack up a total time that hits 183 days in multiple shorter visits, which means that while you are not in breach of immigration law you do have to start filing US taxes! Those rules effectively limit you to 120 days each year on an ongoing basis because it includes partial credit for the prior two years. All days in the current year count, 1/3rd of last year, and 1/6th of the year before; since 120+40+20=180 which is safely under the threshold of 183 days, with a couple spare in case you screw up your arithmetic, 120 is the sensible target number.

 

Both Canadian and US interpretations use 'calendar days' rather than 24 hour periods. So that means the day you cross from Canada into the US, and vice versa, the border-crossing day count for both countries. Vancouver, having US preclearance, potentially has the further issue of 'are you in the US or not?' when you've been processed but have not yet actually crossed the border - for cruises, that's almost always the same day so the 'round up' effectively makes it 'yes, you are in the US today' BUT for the odd cruise like megaships which you board today but sail tomorrow (to get low tide under the bridge) potentially there's scope to demand a day be deducted from your running total... assuming someone is willing to challenge it!

 

But even if you cross the US border at 11:59pm, the clock counts that minute as 1 full day and as soon as midnight rolls past you're in day two. Once you are in the US you are currently interpreted as still being in the US until you enter another country - and again that day is rounded up to a full day of US presence. Verifying US_Canadian land border crossings is easy as US & Canada share records, so if you ever need a full list of when you came & went you can request it from CBP/CBSA. Other countries are harder so you need to keep your own records.

 

But back to cruising - if the ship leaves a US port and sails around international waters for a week your time in the US equals however long you were there on land plus a week. When it enters port in another country, as soon as you are processed for immigration in that country your US clock stops (but is rounded up to the next full day) - I'm not going to claim I know how every country interprets their immigration laws, so I would assume the worst case of the time the ship actually docks rather than assuming any back-dating to when the vessel crossed into their 'zone of control' on the water. Once you have officially entered another country though you are definitely no longer in the US - so a RTW cruise would see you clocking up no more than 2 weeks of US time (e.g. sail LA-Hawaii for 5 days, pootle around the islands for another 4, then a few more sea days until the first non-US port is visited; or going Transatlantic probably no more than 6 or 7 days until you hit a European port).

 

As to the penalties for exceeding the limit on a rolling basis, technically there are no actual penalties (jail time, fines etc) - you just have to file US taxes (and since we have a joint taxation agreement you'll already have paid more in Canada than you would have in the US, so as long as you don't actually have US income it's more paperwork but no actual extra tax). It's also rather trivial to get around filing taxes provided you have NOT broken the '183 days in a single chunk' immigration law.

 

If Uncle Sam wants you to start filing taxes then there's a form you can complete (8840 - you can actually file this preemptively each year) which basically confirms that your primary residence is definitely in Canada rather than the US by proving 'Closer Connections' to Canada (family, a house, a job, etc.). This can be filed every single year, so as long as Canadians don't visit any other country they can actually spend six months in the US every single year while still retaining all Canadian residency rights (remember that the day you cross starts the clock for both countries, so you can achieve '6 months + 1 day' in both each year). For OP, with location Israel in profile, you'd have a more complex situation as it sounds like you have residency there and perhaps multiple citizenships too.

 

You can even get an exemption on compassionate grounds which reduces the rolling count e.g. traveling in the US you get sick and are hospitalized - these days can be deducted from your running total as they are not by choice. Deliberately go for a 'by choice' medical procedure in the US though, and all days count (as some friends discovered)! Visiting a dying family member also counts as deductible (your own kids/siblings/parents/grandparents, not spouses family though as a different friend discovered) as would attending a funeral for same (but max 3 days - one to travel, one to attend, one to leave again).

 

TL;DR - leaving from a US port, every day on the ship is a US day until you reach your first non-US port stop (but that day itself still counts too). Only when you arrive back at another US port would the clock start again (and again, the day you arrive counts as another full day).

Edited October 16, 2019 by martincath

[Tapi]

7 hours ago, cb at sea said:

You are under the LAWS of the country in which the ship is REGISTERED.

My answer does not answer the OP’s question but it’s my understanding that, if something occurs during the cruise that becomes a legal matter (for example, if a passenger chooses to file a lawsuit for something that happened on the ship), the matter will be resolved, not according to the laws of the country where the ship is registered, but according to the laws of the country or jurisdiction where the cruise line is headquartered.  For example, if you’re traveling on Carnival, the matter will be filed in Miami, Florida and resolved according to their laws. 

[RoyalBee]

What a thorough response, martincath! Thank you!
Are you an accountant by any chance? You are right, I have dual Canadian/Israeli citizenship and I lived in the US for many years too so I have a very complex tax situation with three tax treaties involved. But I was less concerned about taxes and more about running afoul of the immigration authority. I will make sure to file form 8840. Thanks for the tip!

[RoyalBee]

"If we were in the US for > 30 days, then spent < 30 days in Canada before returning to the US, they may consider that you never left the US."

I got the same info from another person on FB. 
If this is true, then wouldn't any cruise leaving a US port and less than a month long be counted as if you never left the US no matter where it sailed or docked?

 

 

[chengkp75]

3 hours ago, Tapi said:

My answer does not answer the OP’s question but it’s my understanding that, if something occurs during the cruise that becomes a legal matter (for example, if a passenger chooses to file a lawsuit for something that happened on the ship), the matter will be resolved, not according to the laws of the country where the ship is registered, but according to the laws of the country or jurisdiction where the cruise line is headquartered.  For example, if you’re traveling on Carnival, the matter will be filed in Miami, Florida and resolved according to their laws. 

This is not quite correct.  The cruise line decides what jurisdiction they want to pursue civil actions in.  Most cruise lines, which are headquartered in Miami, have chosen the Federal Southern District of Florida, mainly because of traditionally favorable rulings.

[chengkp75]

I was wondering about this whole "visa" and "time in country" thing, now that it is explained as part of the tax code, I understand it more.  martincath is correct in his interpretation of the ruling, and it is based on a tax regulation that also applies to US citizens who happen to be merchant mariners.  For a long time, merchant mariners could claim that they were out of the US while on their ships, enough to qualify for non-resident tax treatment.  Back in the 70's, the IRS changed the rule, so that any time spent "on or above" international waters in excess of 24 hours at a stretch, is not considered to be "outside the US".

[chengkp75]

1 hour ago, RoyalBee said:

"If we were in the US for > 30 days, then spent < 30 days in Canada before returning to the US, they may consider that you never left the US."

I got the same info from another person on FB. 
If this is true, then wouldn't any cruise leaving a US port and less than a month long be counted as if you never left the US no matter where it sailed or docked?

 

 

No, because those cruises visit countries other than the US and Canada.  The whole tax reciprocity thing is a treaty between the US and Canada, so they are saying that the short stay in Canada is like remaining in the US.  But, if you were in the US for more than 30 days, then spent a week in Mexico, and returned to the US, that week in Mexico would not count as time in the US.

[RoyalBee]

I must admit to being confused. I think there are two issues getting intertwined: 1) the number of days a Canadian may be present in the US in a rolling one year time frame and 2) substantial presence test for tax purposes over a three year period. While I'm interested in both, I really need to know about the first one.

 

So let me get specific. I have a commitment in the US from Jan. 1 to June 4, 2020 or 156 days. I arrive in Fort Lauderdale on a cruise on November 13th - 50 days from Jan. 1 but I'm only allowed another 26 days. If I take a 24-day cruise to South America in November and December, will I have avoided being in the US and having those days counted toward the 180 days? 

[Aquahound]

6 hours ago, Cruzaholic41 said:

 

Perhaps a good question for Chengkp or Aquahound. 

 

Thank you for the vote of confidence but I have no idea what the answer is.   It's an interesting question though. 

Edited October 16, 2019 by Aquahound

[chengkp75]

1 hour ago, RoyalBee said:

I must admit to being confused. I think there are two issues getting intertwined: 1) the number of days a Canadian may be present in the US in a rolling one year time frame and 2) substantial presence test for tax purposes over a three year period. While I'm interested in both, I really need to know about the first one.

 

So let me get specific. I have a commitment in the US from Jan. 1 to June 4, 2020 or 156 days. I arrive in Fort Lauderdale on a cruise on November 13th - 50 days from Jan. 1 but I'm only allowed another 26 days. If I take a 24-day cruise to South America in November and December, will I have avoided being in the US and having those days counted toward the 180 days? 

Okay, took a look at this, and what I've seen is that the "183 day rule" is somewhat urban legend.  The law states that any one visit cannot exceed 6 months, but there is really no legal limit on the total number of days you can stay in the US.  As explained in the link below, someone who travels to and from the US for business every day would rack up 365 days of presence in the US, and this would not be illegal.  It could result in more scrutiny by US CBP, but it breaks no law.  The more days you have in the US, the more you may have to prove your ties to Canada.  Also, he debunks the less than 30 days back in Canada.  This is an immigration lawyer's opinion:

 

https://www.lexology.com/library/detail.aspx?g=bb7206f5-69f7-472f-94a2-cfb18755e3ea