Child Suffered Due to Lack of Passports

[ducklite]

21 minutes ago, RocketMan275 said:

Realtors often say, oh you can buy a much larger house, up to 35% of your income.

Had friends who used to ask, why are you driving that car, you could be driving a Mercedes.  

Common sense will say up to 25% of your income.  Face it, most of us have taxes, health insurance, 401K, and any number of other things taken out of our check before we see the 60-70% that is left.  So 35% of our gross income towards housing would be 50% or more of the take home.  And we wonder why people can't pay their bills listening to advice like that.

[awhcruiser]

12 hours ago, clo said:

Why DO people refuse to get passports? It's easy and costs little. Just because you can, doesn't mean you should.

Costs too much money for some people but to me its worth every penny.  

[RocketMan275]

1 hour ago, ducklite said:

Common sense will say up to 25% of your income.  Face it, most of us have taxes, health insurance, 401K, and any number of other things taken out of our check before we see the 60-70% that is left.  So 35% of our gross income towards housing would be 50% or more of the take home.  And we wonder why people can't pay their bills listening to advice like that.

Down here in Alabama, we call people who spend 35% of their income on a house as being 'house poor'.

"People hear what they want to hear.  And disregard the rest."

[Hlitner]

2 hours ago, mayleeman said:

@Charles4515  @sparks1093

 

Certainly no warning from Carnival. In fact, the page cited by Charles specifically excludes cruises from the idea that passports are recommended! Wow, the effect is to say no need at all. Certainly no discussion of any risks. 

 

When traveling outside of the U.S. a passport is always recommended, but cruises are the exception to the rule.

Well, we are talking about Carnival :).  It is interesting that Oceania actually requires all passengers to have a valid Passport on all their cruises.

 

Hank

[ducklite]

1 hour ago, RocketMan275 said:

Down here in Alabama, we call people who spend 35% of their income on a house as being 'house poor'.

"People hear what they want to hear.  And disregard the rest."

It's not just an Alabama.  The description "house poor" is used all over the United States.

[ducklite]

56 minutes ago, Hlitner said:

Well, we are talking about Carnival :).  It is interesting that Oceania actually requires all passengers to have a valid Passport on all their cruises.

 

Hank

As does Windstar.  I imagine most of the non-mass market lines have a passport requirement.

[Charles4515]

59 minutes ago, Hlitner said:

Well, we are talking about Carnival :).  It is interesting that Oceania actually requires all passengers to have a valid Passport on all their cruises.

 

Hank

Oceania is a niche cruise line that draws a different demographic. More well heeled and not generally worried about passport costs, not bringing large families with them, and probably travel a lot more than those who book mainstream cruise lines. I was pretty surprised in December even on Celebrity, an 11 day cruise the couple  right in front of me at check in on an 11 day southern Caribbean cruise that included were using birth certificates. 

Edited February 14, 2020 by Charles4515

[Toofarfromthesea]

20 hours ago, mayleeman said:

And I just hope people on here who constantly tell newbie US cruisers "You don't need passports! Whst're the odds?" will think twice about the consequences of their advice for someone who, despite the odds against it, desperately needs one.

 

Or, as I like to say, it isn't a problem until it IS a problem.  And then it is a BIG problem.

[Toofarfromthesea]

7 hours ago, sparks1093 said:

It's not just a question of affordability. It would have cost $850 to obtain passports for our first cruise which was only 4 days (family of 7). I did my research and examined our risk and determined that given the uncertainty of our future travel plans that we could forego the passports. There are many who would look at the same situation and make the opposite determination and that's fine. I personally did not see the value in them at that time.

 

That is fine.  But if someone does that and it blows up in their face I'm not going to feel very much sympathy.

[Toofarfromthesea]

4 hours ago, ducklite said:

The problem is that people think they are entitled to vacations--particularly the people who really shouldn't be taking them based on their finances.

 

Maybe Mom needs a Dave Ramsay course.  😜

[pacruise804]

15 hours ago, clo said:

This relates to the now-locked thread about credit cards. I'll only speak for myself. Our family wasn't poor but it certainly wasn't rich. Our vacations reflected that. The most extravagant ones which were only every few years were to drive to Florida from Atlanta. Cook our meals etc. Not a cruise for sure.

 

Our vacations were always road trips too.  I thought cruises were for newlyweds or the very wealthy.

 

3 hours ago, mayleeman said:

@Charles4515  @sparks1093

 

Certainly no warning from Carnival. In fact, the page cited by Charles specifically excludes cruises from the idea that passports are recommended! Wow, the effect is to say no need at all. Certainly no discussion of any risks. 

 

When traveling outside of the U.S. a passport is always recommended, but cruises are the exception to the rule.

Even cruising I think it is recommended.  Unless it has changed land crossings to Canada and Mexico don't require passports either - but we still took our passports for our road trip to Niagara Falls last year 😉 

[ducklite]

9 minutes ago, pacruise804 said:

 

Our vacations were always road trips too.  I thought cruises were for newlyweds or the very wealthy.

 

Even cruising I think it is recommended.  Unless it has changed land crossings to Canada and Mexico don't require passports either - but we still took our passports for our road trip to Niagara Falls last year 😉 

Those land crossings require either a passport, OR an enhanced drivers license from a border state, OR a passport card.

[sparks1093]

18 minutes ago, Toofarfromthesea said:

 

That is fine.  But if someone does that and it blows up in their face I'm not going to feel very much sympathy.

I probably wouldn't either depending on the circumstances but that's beside the point.

[Suzanne123]

34 minutes ago, Toofarfromthesea said:

 

Maybe Mom needs a Dave Ramsay course.  😜

Rice and beans, beans and rice at the buffet? 😁

[navybankerteacher]

5 hours ago, sparks1093 said:

You can say the same thing about owning an expensive car or owning a house. Our society has been a "do it now, pay for it later" one for decades so this is nothing new.

A major cause of the “Great Recession” of 2008/9 was the housing bubble - many people bought houses in the preceding years with essentially nothing down - the sub-prime mortgage market - actually encouraged by government to spur lending in less affluent communities - made the “dream of home ownership” an apparent reality.  These floating rate mortgages - initially low cost - lured buyers into obligations they could not afford. When interest rates spiked up, many owners defaulted - they had essentially no equity in the properties and when the mortgage debt exceeded the market value investors in pass-through bonds also suffered.  

 

Very many people live paycheck to paycheck - minimal (sometimes almost no) equity in their homes, huge car loans, minimal retirement savings, credit card debt which they have run up to rinance their techy toys - latest phones, fit-bit watches, and YES  cruises.

 

Of course they will avoid paying a bit over $100 each for passports - which in their rosy optimism they think they will never need.   

[clo]

26 minutes ago, ducklite said:

Those land crossings require either a passport, OR an enhanced drivers license from a border state, OR a passport card.

 

Canada International Travel Information - Travel.gov - US ...

travel.state.gov › content › travel › international-travel › Canada

 

1.  

Jan 16, 2020 - Entry into Canada: Canadian law requires that all persons entering Canada carry both proof of citizenship and proof of identity. A valid U.S. passport, passport card, or NEXUS card satisfies these requirements for U.S. citizens. Children under 16 need only present proof of U.S. citizenship.

‎U.S.-Canada Relations · ‎Travel Advisory January 14 ...

[clo]

4 hours ago, awhcruiser said:

Costs too much money for some people but to me its worth every penny.  

For decades, about many things, I ask myself 'what's the worst that can happen?' 

[ducklite]

12 minutes ago, clo said:

 

Canada International Travel Information - Travel.gov - US ...

travel.state.gov › content › travel › international-travel › Canada

 

1.  

Jan 16, 2020 - Entry into Canada: Canadian law requires that all persons entering Canada carry both proof of citizenship and proof of identity. A valid U.S. passport, passport card, or NEXUS card satisfies these requirements for U.S. citizens. Children under 16 need only present proof of U.S. citizenship.

‎U.S.-Canada Relations · ‎Travel Advisory January 14 ...

And again, a person with an enhanced DL (available only in certain border states) can use that to cross the border into Canada and Mexico.

[RocketMan275]

12 minutes ago, navybankerteacher said:

A major cause of the “Great Recession” of 2008/9 was the housing bubble - many people bought houses in the preceding years with essentially nothing down - the sub-prime mortgage market - actually encouraged by government to spur lending in less affluent communities - made the “dream of home ownership” an apparent reality.  These floating rate mortgages - initially low cost - lured buyers into obligations they could not afford. When interest rates spiked up, many owners defaulted - they had essentially no equity in the properties and when the mortgage debt exceeded the market value investors in pass-through bonds also suffered.  

 

Very many people live paycheck to paycheck - minimal (sometimes almost no) equity in their homes, huge car loans, minimal retirement savings, credit card debt which they have run up to rinance their techy toys - latest phones, fit-bit watches, and YES  cruises.

Two points, many who had those mortgages saw their homes as piggy banks and did multiple 'cash-out' refinances compounding the problem.

There's an report at Market Watch. that 1 in 5 people making over $100,000 are living "pay check" to "pay check".  Reminds me of my ex-wife who saw no issues with "floating" checks.

I worked at one company that paid monthly.  All highly paid engineers and scientists.  On payday, the parking lot contained many wives waiting to get the check and race to the bank before they bounced checks.

[ducklite]

11 minutes ago, RocketMan275 said:

On payday, the parking lot contained many wives waiting to get the check and race to the bank before they bounced checks.

YIKES!  

Monthly pay would be great for people who have trouble managing their money.  They'd get paid, pay all the bills, (hopefully) make their savings deposits and when the rest was gone, it was gone.  It would force people to think twice about what they were buying and if they really needed it or not.  After the first couple of months that they were eating PB&J and rice & beans for dinner for the last 4-5 days of the month, they'd (hopefully) get better.

Personally I'd rather get paid once a month.  Get paid, pay bills, and done until the next month.

[sparks1093]

43 minutes ago, navybankerteacher said:

A major cause of the “Great Recession” of 2008/9 was the housing bubble - many people bought houses in the preceding years with essentially nothing down - the sub-prime mortgage market - actually encouraged by government to spur lending in less affluent communities - made the “dream of home ownership” an apparent reality.  These floating rate mortgages - initially low cost - lured buyers into obligations they could not afford. When interest rates spiked up, many owners defaulted - they had essentially no equity in the properties and when the mortgage debt exceeded the market value investors in pass-through bonds also suffered.  

 

Very many people live paycheck to paycheck - minimal (sometimes almost no) equity in their homes, huge car loans, minimal retirement savings, credit card debt which they have run up to rinance their techy toys - latest phones, fit-bit watches, and YES  cruises.

 

Of course they will avoid paying a bit over $100 each for passports - which in their rosy optimism they think they will never need.   

Yes, I agree with what you say in the first two paragraphs (as I said earlier, we've been a "do it now, pay for it later" culture for decades) but as to the last sentence, so what? It is their choice to make and their choice affects no one else. And since millions of people do manage to travel on closed loop cruises with something other than a passport each year I would say that there is great cause for optimism. 

[RocketMan275]

18 minutes ago, ducklite said:

YIKES!  

Monthly pay would be great for people who have trouble managing their money.  They'd get paid, pay all the bills, (hopefully) make their savings deposits and when the rest was gone, it was gone.  It would force people to think twice about what they were buying and if they really needed it or not.  After the first couple of months that they were eating PB&J and rice & beans for dinner for the last 4-5 days of the month, they'd (hopefully) get better.

Personally I'd rather get paid once a month.  Get paid, pay bills, and done until the next month.

You would think but that wasn't the experience.  Those who could manage money had no issues.  Those who didn't budget and use forethought had trouble.  They were usually broke by the end of the third week.

[navybankerteacher]

53 minutes ago, ducklite said:

YIKES!  

Monthly pay would be great for people who have trouble managing their money.  They'd get paid, pay all the bills, (hopefully) make their savings deposits and when the rest was gone, it was gone.  It would force people to think twice about what they were buying and if they really needed it or not.  After the first couple of months that they were eating PB&J and rice & beans for dinner for the last 4-5 days of the month, they'd (hopefully) get better.

Personally I'd rather get paid once a month.  Get paid, pay bills, and done until the next month.

The problem with this is that many (if not most) people lack self discipline.  With money in hand to cover a certain time period they are likely to use it up about half way through  that time period - and then have to borrow (or do without, once they have borrowed to the hilt).  People paid weekly would run out after three or four days - and would have to borrow to cover the next three or four days.  People paid monthly would run out after fifteen days - and would have to borrow to cover fifteen days’ living expenses.  The interest costs alone (about 20% on a typical credit card) would make a big  difference after a year.

 

On something of a tangent:  it would be interesting to know what percentage of cruisers carry any credit card debt.  They might claim that they do not owe on their cruises but on “necessities” - such as cars, or clothes, or electronics.  The fact is - if they carry any short term debt at all - their cruises (being unessential) ARE being paid for by that debt.

[ducklite]

6 minutes ago, navybankerteacher said:

On something of a tangent:  it would be interesting to know what percentage of cruisers carry any credit card debt.  They might claim that they do not owe on their cruises but on “necessities” - such as cars, or clothes, or electronics.  The fact is - if they carry any short term debt at all - their cruises (being unessential) ARE being paid for by that debt.

Other than what I've charged on the CSR this billing period, we have nothing on credit cards of any type (charges made on two other cards were paid the day they appeared online on the account).  We do not carry balances on cards and if an unexpected large purchase (new appliance or unexpected car repair for example) comes up, we take money out of the savings account for exactly those types of things to cover the cost.  For non-necessities (other than those planned in advance such as the annual vacation) we simply don't buy it if the money isn't in the checking account.

[Hlitner]

Taking a cruise without a valid Passport is akin to playing Russian roulette.  One must be very careful to have the appropriate documents (we have seen several folks denied boarding because their Birth Certificates were not deemed appropriate.  And one must also be very careful to understand the specific cruise line policy.  For example, Holland America requires all members of a family to have valid Passports, on closed loop cruises, if minors are only traveling with only 1 adult.  This is one of those obscure rules that can easily be missed by a cruiser.  Other lines have their own rules so those not using Passports really need to do their homework.

 

We have witnessed, a few times, the reaction of folks denied boarding and it is quite sad.  Most recently we saw it happen on a MSC cruise we took last December where it appeared that the cruise line would not accept one child's  Birth Certificate.  Of course it meant that the entire family missed their cruise.  Prior to that we saw a family denied boarding on a Princess cruise going from NYC to Ft Lauderdale when a senior member of the group mistakenly thought she could cruise between 2 US Ports without a Passport.

 

Hank