Sell Ships to the Government?

[ONECRUISER]

1 hour ago, rolloman said:

 

 Normally people build upon an idea or offer solutions...but not this board...it is a 100% shoot down of any and I mean any, concept, idea or strategy..... funny how a few weeks ago I mentioned the possibility of the two hospital ships being used and was laughed at. But here they are ...being used as we speak.....

Have to remember these Hospital ships are only for non-CV patients, no child births, no elective type surgeries. Mission is combat casualties, they are actually overkill for their mission and doubt they'll ever reach capacity, at least in California. Lucky have even been deployed, usually takes about month get ready for even this narrow work load. Ship and machinery outdated but all Military 

Edited April 3, 2020 by ONECRUISER

[zekekelso]

57 minutes ago, NavyCruiser said:

Yes, it'll work as the Navy's newest forward offensive deployment warships.

 

Fill 'em with the nastiest CDC diseases & attack/infect foreign enemies ports with our best biological weapons...

mod naybe some of the food from the Windjammer near the end of a session 🙂

[ReneeFLL]

3 hours ago, rolloman said:

They will do what they are told. We are at war with a virus. The Navy owns the other two ships.....but hey....whatever....stand by, watch and learn. GM now makes ventilators not cars..... go figure....

Making ventilators is a temporary thing and not permanent.

 

3 hours ago, rolloman said:

.......either way it has been determined from the top two more ships are needed for inventory. The president said he was leaning toward new builds....certainly sounds more time consuming and expensive when we are in a situation right now in real time. 

It was also determined from the top that this virus was no big deal. Remember him saying that in the beginning? Unfortunately he has a tendency to leap before looking. I think someone will eventually set him straight.

 

BTW, we are at war and the whole world is in the same war and we are all on the same side. This virus war is temporary compared to a war against another country.

Edited April 3, 2020 by ReneeFLL

[ReneeFLL]

2 hours ago, BND said:

First, I edited to say built/refitted, but you didn't even know the part about them being prior tankers from what I can tell.  My DH is a retired US Navy Captain and we have discussed your "idea".  You were told that they were tankers on the Carnival board.  Second, you're the one who said buying cruise ships.  New builds would take years.  As I said, you know nothing about Gov acquisition which is not the same as leasing.  Acquisition doesn't happen overnight.  

Maybe we will cruise some day together. Hubby is also a retired Navy Captain (now flies for AA). They would probably have a lot in common to talk about. Anyway, we don't know a thing about Gov acquisitions, but it didn't sound like a very good idea to us either. Congrats on the retirement.

Edited April 3, 2020 by ReneeFLL

[PhoenixCruiser]

Why another ship? They do not take COVID 19 patients.

The ship in New York has three patients, how is this helping?

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

[rolloman]

10 hours ago, BND said:

First, I edited to say built/refitted, but you didn't even know the part about them being prior tankers from what I can tell.  My DH is a retired US Navy Captain and we have discussed your "idea".  You were told that they were tankers on the Carnival board.  Second, you're the one who said buying cruise ships.  New builds would take years.  As I said, you know nothing about Gov acquisition which is not the same as leasing.  Acquisition doesn't happen overnight.  

Seems you are trying very hard to make this personal....sad.....For the record, my first post mentioned oil tankers..no one" told" me. Secondly, you know nothing about what I know or do not know. Lastly, I never said anything about this "happening overnight".

 

To recap: The President said he wanted two more hospital ships, he did  not say when or for what, however, he said he preferred to build new but was open to the idea of remodeling two existing BIG ships. I thought it would be a good idea to discuss since there is a high probability many cruise ships may soon sit idle or due to bankruptcy become available to be sold.  Someone mentioned there are currently 40 cruise ships for sale.

[BND]

19 minutes ago, rolloman said:

Seems you are trying very hard to make this personal....sad.....For the record, my first post mentioned oil tankers..no one" told" me. Secondly, you know nothing about what I know or do not know. Lastly, I never said anything about this "happening overnight".

 

To recap: The President said he wanted two more hospital ships, he did  not say when or for what, however, he said he preferred to build new but was open to the idea of remodeling two existing BIG ships. I thought it would be a good idea to discuss since there is a high probability many cruise ships may soon sit idle or due to bankruptcy become available to be sold.  Someone mentioned there are currently 40 cruise ships for sale.

You need to let this go.  You think for some reason the Gov needs to buy cruise ships.  I just gave you my experience in how the Fed Gov acquisition works and why I think purchasing these ships won't happen.  You speak from opinion only and no facts about it.  You started this thread and if you only want everyone to agree with you, then you really didn't want anyone's expertise or opinions, just your own.

[chengkp75]

12 hours ago, rolloman said:

 

 Normally people build upon an idea or offer solutions...but not this board...it is a 100% shoot down of any and I mean any, concept, idea or strategy..... funny how a few weeks ago I mentioned the possibility of the two hospital ships being used and was laughed at. But here they are ...being used as we speak.....

Well, lets actually look at the ships.  They are not "state of the art", they are designed for battlefield casualties, of young, otherwise fit, individuals, and use closely spaced bunks and not hospital beds.  Could they be repurposed for use with infectious disease patients?  Maybe, depends on how the ventilation system is set up, and would require months to re-outfit the medical facilities and patient quarters.  To date the two ships, combined, have accepted less than 20 patients.  There is a list of 49 medical conditions that preclude a patient from being transferred to one of the ships.  The cargo tank bulkheads were retained when the ships were converted, so to transport patients around the ship, you have to travel up to the main deck and back down between each "tank".

 

Could you repurpose a cruise ship as a hospital ship?  As my contractor is fond of saying, "you can do anything, it's just a matter of how much you want to pay".  Would it be cost effective?  Who knows, but I would say, given the US government's procurement policies and the US shipyard's approach to ship repair, that it would take hundreds of millions and over a year to convert, and you would have something far from what the DoD envisions for their missions, and there still be plans to build new, purpose-built hospital ships to replace these stop-gaps.

[alfaeric]

Ignoring the off the cuff politics that started the idea of a need of a new hospital ship or the lack of use of the current ones...

 

I'm not sure why people think converting a cruise ship to a hospital is such a bad idea.

 

Starting with any other ship, you would need to add rooms to them.  And based on the current state of the art, what they would do is create a structure inside of it, fabricating the rooms off the ship, and then inserting them at a later time.

 

And every single cruise ship made in the last 30 years has been already made in that form.  We've seen many ships add cabins via this exact same method.  Which also means they can take them back off the ship. 

 

So in terms of the basic structure and design of the ship, pretty much every cruise ship is a perfect design to start with- just cut a hole, remove the existing cabins, and replace with proper ones.   Ones with bigger doors, better laid out bathrooms, etc.  And they can also be shorter to add space in the hallways.

 

There is already an air handling and water handling system set up for each cabin, so plugging them into the new set up would already be there- again, on any other ship- this would have to be 100% brand new.  The cruise ship would only have to modify the system so that the air filtering is much better and faster to maintain.  

 

There is also a lot of open space to make into other features- more cabins, surgical places, or whatever.

 

A HUGE advantage to start with a cruise ship is the multiple galleys already in the ship- storing and making food safely is already in place.

 

So IF you were going to make a new hospital ship, modifying a cruise ship vs any other ship seems pretty obvious to me- the cruise ship would be a lot faster to modify and more efficient to use.

 

[rolloman]

5 minutes ago, chengkp75 said:

 

 

Could you repurpose a cruise ship as a hospital ship?  As my contractor is fond of saying, "you can do anything, it's just a matter of how much you want to pay".  Would it be cost effective?  Who knows, but I would say, given the US government's procurement policies and the US shipyard's approach to ship repair, that it would take hundreds of millions and over a year to convert, and you would have something far from what the DoD envisions for their missions, and there still be plans to build new, purpose-built hospital ships to replace these stop-gaps.

Exactly....here is a similar event concerning costs. I was a part of a ships life extension program for a  Navy Carrier....the cost to completely gut and overhaul was  157 million dollars....the refurb was supposed to extend the ship life for 30 years. Upon completion, it sailed for 8 years and was then literally sold for 1 penny to a scrap yard.  

[chengkp75]

1 hour ago, alfaeric said:

So IF you were going to make a new hospital ship, modifying a cruise ship vs any other ship seems pretty obvious to me- the cruise ship would be a lot faster to modify and more efficient to use.

While many of the points you make are somewhat valid, the big problem is that the US does not have the infrastructure or experience in building modular cabins like this, and it would take a good while and lots of money to tool up another manufacturer to build these.  And, it would not be as simple as pulling cabins out and plugging new ones in.  It would require an entirely new stability calculation if the cabins or their equipment is of sufficient difference in weight, and other concerns such as fire suppression in a place where oxygen is used with frequency becomes a major concern.  It's a bit like saying, "well, the SS United States is already an ocean liner, we can convert it to a cruise ship, as it already has a lot going for it", when in fact it would have cost more than a new ship twice its size.

[sgmn]

15 hours ago, John&LaLa said:

 

China built hospitals in 3 days. 

But that was easy, they make everything 😉🤣

Took 9 days to build 4000 bed hospital NHS Nightingale in London. Rolling out design to other major cities. When theres a will, there's a way! 

[Milwaukee Eight]

2 hours ago, alfaeric said:

Ignoring the off the cuff politics that started the idea of a need of a new hospital ship or the lack of use of the current ones...

 

I'm not sure why people think converting a cruise ship to a hospital is such a bad idea.

 

Starting with any other ship, you would need to add rooms to them.  And based on the current state of the art, what they would do is create a structure inside of it, fabricating the rooms off the ship, and then inserting them at a later time.

 

And every single cruise ship made in the last 30 years has been already made in that form.  We've seen many ships add cabins via this exact same method.  Which also means they can take them back off the ship. 

 

So in terms of the basic structure and design of the ship, pretty much every cruise ship is a perfect design to start with- just cut a hole, remove the existing cabins, and replace with proper ones.   Ones with bigger doors, better laid out bathrooms, etc.  And they can also be shorter to add space in the hallways.

 

There is already an air handling and water handling system set up for each cabin, so plugging them into the new set up would already be there- again, on any other ship- this would have to be 100% brand new.  The cruise ship would only have to modify the system so that the air filtering is much better and faster to maintain.  

 

There is also a lot of open space to make into other features- more cabins, surgical places, or whatever.

 

A HUGE advantage to start with a cruise ship is the multiple galleys already in the ship- storing and making food safely is already in place.

 

So IF you were going to make a new hospital ship, modifying a cruise ship vs any other ship seems pretty obvious to me- the cruise ship would be a lot faster to modify and more efficient to use.

 

A few drawbacks 

Most cabin doors too small for a gurney. Add hallways/elevators. 

[Robo1098]

At first glance you wouldn't think that a tanker was the choice to convert to a hospital. I believe they were chosen due to the largest open area for an existing ship. I personally think that a cruise ship would need to be gutted down to its hull to be a usable hospital ship. Nothing about the rooms, bathrooms, hallways or elevators is conducive to a hospital. It is difficult for two people to pass in the narrow hallways. Try going down those hallways in a hospital bed. The bathrooms could not be used as they are too small. The doors to the cabins are too small. I don't think the electrical service to each cabin is enough to operate hospital equipment. I don't think the elevators are large enough to hold a hospital bed. Just doesn't seem feasible.

 

[cruisinfanatic]

16 hours ago, rtazz17 said:

President thinks out loud a lot. 95% of his out loud thought dont come to fruition. Im a Trump supporter but I think its another out loud thought with no real forethought  

Or fact, LOL

[John&LaLa]

It seems MSC may be converting a ferry into a hospital ship for Italy. And this is for COVID, up to 400 beds is possible

 

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/msc-group-converts-ferry-into-floating-hospital/ar-BB11I1xr?li=BBnbfcL

 

https://www.seatrade-cruise.com/news/splendid-case-study-how-first-passenger-ship-was-transformed-coronavirus-relief

Edited April 3, 2020 by John&LaLa

[alfaeric]

1 hour ago, chengkp75 said:

While many of the points you make are somewhat valid, the big problem is that the US does not have the infrastructure or experience in building modular cabins like this, and it would take a good while and lots of money to tool up another manufacturer to build these.  And, it would not be as simple as pulling cabins out and plugging new ones in.  It would require an entirely new stability calculation if the cabins or their equipment is of sufficient difference in weight, and other concerns such as fire suppression in a place where oxygen is used with frequency becomes a major concern.  It's a bit like saying, "well, the SS United States is already an ocean liner, we can convert it to a cruise ship, as it already has a lot going for it", when in fact it would have cost more than a new ship twice its size.

No, there isn't the infrastructure to do that, true.

 

But there are two clear choices- build a brand new hospital ship or recycle an old ship for the same purpose.  Seems to me that one could put together an system to build those cabins- it's not like it's rocket science- it's more like building a very specific travel trailer- which is done in multiple places around the US.  

 

The fire suppression system has to be done regardless of the ship you start with- that's not a detraction.  Nor is the weight distribution calculation.  

 

I just don't see how laying down a new keel for a brand new ship would be more efficient or cheaper that modifying a cruise ship.  So much of what is needed is already there, what isn't is not hard to change.

[alfaeric]

1 hour ago, Milwaukee Eight said:

A few drawbacks 

Most cabin doors too small for a gurney. Add hallways/elevators. 

 

The only part that would need serious re-engineering are the elevators.

 

As I pointed out before, when the modular cabins are replaced with a more appropriate design, the doors can be made much larger as the hallways much wider.

 

Don't think of the ship as a fixed entity- look at how it's built, and take advantage of the modular room system that is there.  The odds of a totally empty hull to have to do the exact same process is quite high- but the amount of infrastructure that would have to be added for an oil tanker or a container ship  would add a lot of time and expense.

 

The only real issue is the idea that there isn't a modular cabin manufacturer in the US.  But even that can be adapted between the modular home and travel trailer industries.

[chengkp75]

6 minutes ago, alfaeric said:

No, there isn't the infrastructure to do that, true.

 

But there are two clear choices- build a brand new hospital ship or recycle an old ship for the same purpose.  Seems to me that one could put together an system to build those cabins- it's not like it's rocket science- it's more like building a very specific travel trailer- which is done in multiple places around the US.  

 

The fire suppression system has to be done regardless of the ship you start with- that's not a detraction.  Nor is the weight distribution calculation.  

 

I just don't see how laying down a new keel for a brand new ship would be more efficient or cheaper that modifying a cruise ship.  So much of what is needed is already there, what isn't is not hard to change.

The biggest problem will be that the military will need to frame the mission capabilities of the converted ship to what is possible within the existing structure.  I.e., changing what is desired to what is possible.  The military does not do this happily, they would prefer to purpose build something to meet their exact needs.  Plus the fact that very few shipyards in the US are proficient in merchant ship repair (which is what this would be), and while the price incentive may be there (military contracts are typically cost plus basis as opposed to fixed bid commercial ship repair), they are also not set up for quick changes of operation (switching to modular cabin installation), nor to snap changes when problems crop up.  I'm not saying that converting a cruise ship to a hospital ship is impossible, but in the US it would not be cost effective, nor timely.

[alfaeric]

22 minutes ago, chengkp75 said:

The biggest problem will be that the military will need to frame the mission capabilities of the converted ship to what is possible within the existing structure.  I.e., changing what is desired to what is possible.  The military does not do this happily, they would prefer to purpose build something to meet their exact needs.  Plus the fact that very few shipyards in the US are proficient in merchant ship repair (which is what this would be), and while the price incentive may be there (military contracts are typically cost plus basis as opposed to fixed bid commercial ship repair), they are also not set up for quick changes of operation (switching to modular cabin installation), nor to snap changes when problems crop up.  I'm not saying that converting a cruise ship to a hospital ship is impossible, but in the US it would not be cost effective, nor timely.

That's all great, except for the problem that both of the current hospital ships are converted from something else.  Nothing is impossible, or even that unlikely, given history.  

 

Lest we forget, the skills of adding modular cabins to ships is not very far off shore, and some of those skilled people are likely to be US citizens working in Freeport.

 

I very much don't see it being either costly or timely vs. building a ship from scratch that would require the building of the exact same rooms, regardless.  Rooms are rooms, no matter how they are made.  

[Baron Barracuda]

What is the expected mission for these ships?  If for domestic disaster relief they can only assist coastal cities.  Might be better off building modular hospital units that can be transported by truck or train.

[chengkp75]

9 minutes ago, alfaeric said:

That's all great, except for the problem that both of the current hospital ships are converted from something else.  Nothing is impossible, or even that unlikely, given history.  

 

Lest we forget, the skills of adding modular cabins to ships is not very far off shore, and some of those skilled people are likely to be US citizens working in Freeport.

 

I very much don't see it being either costly or timely vs. building a ship from scratch that would require the building of the exact same rooms, regardless.  Rooms are rooms, no matter how they are made.  

However, for a US Naval vessel, those personnel from the Freeport shipyard would not be eligible, nor would their shipyard, for doing this work.

 

And yes, the Mercy and Comfort were converted from tankers, the main reason being that there are vast open areas inside the ship, where you are free to build anything you want.  These tanks have very few structural bulkheads, where as the cruise ships have each deck and each fire zone segregated by structural bulkheads and decks.  Each of the 18 cargo tanks is about 5000 cubic meters, or 170,000 cubic feet (if subdivided into 7 foot high decks, this is 24,000 sq ft of deck space in each .  And the reason the tankers were converted was that they were about to become illegal, since they were not double hulled, and the price of oil had risen so that their steam plants were no longer economical for commercial use.

 

I would estimate that it would cost about 80% of what a new, purpose-built ship would cost to retrofit a cruise ship.  And, again, would that retrofitted ship meet the militiary's mission.  Does the Mercy or the Comfort meet the need for an infectious disease hospital, no, and the Captain of one of them has even said so.  

[ONECRUISER]

One of the big requirements in new US Navy Hospital ship is ability land the rather large Bell Boeing V-22 Osprey. Along with Refuel and Hanger Deck for Maint of the Air Assets. just another reason Cruise Ship not an option. Studies I've read, requirement land several of these at same time. With everything else listed above it's not going happen.

Edited April 3, 2020 by ONECRUISER