Will obese cruisers need a medical note?

[TeeRick]

59 minutes ago, hcat said:

Maybe the new demographic will resemble the models they use in the ads and brochures....instead of traditional Celebrity cruisers who resemble real life!

Yes!  These are the same young and healthy and chic models that Celebrity uses in all of their ads.  Never any older or obese folks!

[jagoffee]

The partial implementation of a focus on the Vulnerable Individuals was a failed attempt for the cruise lines to keep operating.  They were eventually shut down.  When they are allowed to start operating, I am convinced there will well documented standards for operating in the US or at least industry wide.  Personally I do not see each cruise line having their own rules as it would be too much of a liability.  
I am not too sure it is practical to test all crew members and passengers every time they board, but if the improvement in testing technology and availability continues  at the same pace, it might be possible.  A quick instant test with infinite availability would be nice.  Or perhaps an effective cure?
 I think it is going to be a tough challenge to protect Vulnerable Individuals.  But people have been passing away on cruise ships for a long time.  Individuals at risk should be trusted to make their our risk assessments IMO.  But people who  are contagious with COVID 19 should not be allowed to cruise.  I would like to see temperature scans as a permanent screen.  

[bEwAbG]

I'm fine with them having restrictions to keep at-risk people from danger, but they do need to commit to allowing those who are already booked to receive refunds if they're no longer going to be allowed to sail.  Stringing customers along in a bid to keep their cash is not a good look.

[Roger88]

The term "obese" can refer to different weight and medical condition in different countries. If we speak of an actual medical condition, the obesity can be a serious factor limiting you from going on a long sea cruises. I am not well informed about medical service on board of such ships. I wouldnt worry about such problems, I would rather worry about people who have high blood pressure in general. No matter what size you are you might have this problem. My wife is 45 kg 1.4t 25yo and she has blood pressure problems. Dont know what to think about it.. 

[jagoffee]

2 minutes ago, bEwAbG said:

I'm fine with them having restrictions to keep at-risk people from danger, but they do need to commit to allowing those who are already booked to receive refunds if they're no longer going to be allowed to sail.  Stringing customers along in a bid to keep their cash is not a good look.

True, but you cannot really expect the cruise lines to make the determination.  If after the 100 day no sail order expires, we will know the recommendations.  The recommendations will guide the next actions.  If the Federal government decides that certain people cannot cruise for several years or ever ( I do not think that this is likely) then I think the cruise line will have no choice, but to offer refunds.  But they can always argue that you can cruise in other countries.  I would guess that if a cruise line actually files for bankruptcy,

 protections, the refunds will be decided by the courts.  For those that selected the FCC with the bonus instead of cash or purchased gift cards, they find find themselves way down on the list.  I do not think it is likely that this will happen,   The Administration, Congress, and the American people do not seem to really care about the cruise industry and those people affected by this.  

[FRMPEI]

2 hours ago, hcat said:

Maybe the new demographic will resemble the models they use in the ads and brochures....instead of traditional Celebrity cruisers who resemble real life!

Took the words right from my keyboard. 😀

 

Regards,

Kevin Reid

[bEwAbG]

 

38 minutes ago, jagoffee said:

True, but you cannot really expect the cruise lines to make the determination.  If after the 100 day no sail order expires, we will know the recommendations.  The recommendations will guide the next actions.  If the Federal government decides that certain people cannot cruise for several years or ever ( I do not think that this is likely) then I think the cruise line will have no choice, but to offer refunds.  But they can always argue that you can cruise in other countries.

 

The cruise lines can make that determination today.  That is completely within their purview as the FCC policy is entirely their scheme.  They're hoping that restrictions will be lifted that allow people to sail sooner rather than later.  All of that is wishful thinking on their part, though.  I understand they want to keep the cash, but it's not really an ethical business decision.  The airlines were trying to do the exact same thing until the DOT reminded them that they were required by regulation to give refunds when a trip is cancelled.

[jagoffee]

On 4/23/2020 at 10:43 AM, bEwAbG said:

 

 

The cruise lines can make that determination today.  That is completely within their purview as the FCC policy is entirely their scheme.  They're hoping that restrictions will be lifted that allow people to sail sooner rather than later.  All of that is wishful thinking on their part, though.  I understand they want to keep the cash, but it's not really an ethical business decision.  The airlines were trying to do the exact same thing until the DOT reminded them that they were required by regulation to give refunds when a trip is cancelled.

We will just have to disagree, cruise lines cannot possible know who can cruise and when they can cruise, due to the No Sail order and yet to be developed criteria.

Are you suggesting that when Celebrity is cancelling a cruise, one is not given the option for a full refund back to the original method of payment? (Assuming you did not pick the more generous credit).
If yes, why would you call it unethical?

[hawkesbaynz]

Cambridge University has built a ‘ bed side’ covid 19 test machine. Size of a tub of ice cream takes 90 minutes and costs £20 K. Single test. Not very practical at the pier with 4000 queuing up. Most Covid- 19 tests are done in large batches over several hours usually once a day. 
 

There is no reliable Antibody test. Shame as am certain I had it in March. 
 

Most of the younger people who appear on our local TV station having died of Covid-19 are obese. Even tragically this week a couple of twins in their thirties with underlying medical conditions. Obesity causes diabetes, hypertension, Heart disease increased cancer etc. No sugar coating it. 
 

Until cruising I did not know that human could possibly eat so much. The gluttony can be jaw dropping. Oddly this was not the slim folk. 
 

For a habit that generally takes a year off your life for every four years smoking after the age of 30, smoking apparently may offer protection. 
 

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/apr/22/french-study-suggests-smokers-at-lower-risk-of-getting-coronavirus
 

My wife is involved with Carnivals medical centres and has heard horror stories about the state of some passengers health slipping onto the ships. Things do need to change. 
 

I have worked with ex-ship nursing staff who have talked about passengers going on long trips with the explicit intention of dying on the cruise.  

 

I have friends who have been struggling with the mental and physical welfare of their parents happily getting some respite by dropping them off at Southampton docks for Cunard to look after  Fortunately they were refused last trip and Dad died very soon after. 
 

I have been on cruises and seen fellow passengers who certainly look sicker than I see in my professional work in general practice. Would I go on a cruise if I had continuous oxygen or dialysis - no!
 

It is a big ask for a doctor to sign a certificate to say a person with chronic ill health is safe to cruise. Particularly if they did not know them which is much more common in the UK. Due diligence and accountability come into play. And who in medical practice has the time anyway. 

[sanger727]

1 hour ago, hawkesbaynz said:

chronic ill health is safe to cruise. Particularly if they did not know them which is much more common in the UK. Due diligence and accountability come into play. And who in medical practice has the time anyway. 

sorry, this is off topic but I asked this on another thread and never got an answer. Just asking out of curiosity. In the US health system it’s typical to have a ‘primary care provider’ which is one doctor that you see for your annual physical and is usually your first point of contact for health issues. If anything is wrong that is who you would call or email with questions and would often see first when sick to get treatment or a referral to see a specialist. Is that different in the UK?

 

I had to get a medical release signed last year to go scuba diving (due to underlying health conditions). It was truly no big deal. My doctor’s office has a messaging system so I messaged her and described what I needed and asked if she would sign it. She said sure. I dropped it off at her office and picked it back up the next day. No appointment needed. If you truly are fit to cruise I would imagine this type of clearance letter could work essentially the same way. 

[Bo1953]

On 4/23/2020 at 11:43 AM, bEwAbG said:

 

 

The cruise lines can make that determination today.  That is completely within their purview as the FCC policy is entirely their scheme.  They're hoping that restrictions will be lifted that allow people to sail sooner rather than later.  All of that is wishful thinking on their part, though.  I understand they want to keep the cash, but it's not really an ethical business decision.  The airlines were trying to do the exact same thing until the DOT reminded them that they were required by regulation to give refunds when a trip is cancelled.

Lest we forget, cruise lines are not 'required' by regulation to offer refunds under any situation or condition.

 

Read the CoC, as another poster on another thread suggested that cruise lines were required to offer refunds and I Am still waiting for them to point out ANY regulation, law or CoC where this is true.

 

Cruise lines are providing refunds, to some degree and it is taking time for whatever reason or thought process.

 

Yes, I Am waiting for one (1) refund of four (4) trips, I have moved three (3) to future dates with the distinct understanding that at some future point, I will get a refund if I were to change my mind about those sailings.

 

bon voyage

[Bo1953]

On 4/23/2020 at 11:43 AM, bEwAbG said:

The cruise lines can make that determination today.  That is completely within their purview as the FCC policy is entirely their scheme.  They're hoping that restrictions will be lifted that allow people to sail sooner rather than later.  All of that is wishful thinking on their part, though.  I understand they want to keep the cash, but it's not really an ethical business decision.  The airlines were trying to do the exact same thing until the DOT reminded them that they were required by regulation to give refunds when a trip is cancelled.

Then were the cruise lines operating within their 'Cancellation Policies' there would be quite an uproar....

 

Cruise lines had to put something in place for this, after all we all agreed to the policy upon booking, right? Maybe many have not read the CoC's and other 'legal mumbo jumbo' we agree to by sending in that deposit, based on postings here on CC, we were mainly worried about tipping policies, dress codes, what the new ships look like and offer vs the prior builds, vs loyalty status...

 

No posts that I can ever remember talking about CoC's and other 'important policies' which cruise lines have in place and have had so for a very, very, very long time.

 

No uproar over those changes, until now? Hmmmm have you or anyone else who is posting about 'what cruise lines need to or should or have to do' ever read the DOT or FMC rules covering cruise lines?

 

Rhetorical question of course, because each of us 'know' what they need to do to satisfy our individual demands, requirements or desires. 'If I were in charge, this would happen.' LOL

 

bon voyage

[bEwAbG]

On 4/24/2020 at 11:13 PM, jagoffee said:

We will just have to disagree, cruise lines cannot possible know who can cruise and when they can cruise, due to the No Sail order and yet to be developed criteria.

Are you suggesting that when Celebrity is cancelling a cruise, one is not given the option for a full refund back to the original method of payment? (Assuming you did not pick the more generous credit).
If yes, why would you call it unethical?

 

The point of my original comment is that any rules tied to FCC are solely at the discretion of the cruise line.  They are the ones who are imposing restrictions and setting use-by dates and raising prices, etc.  That is not specific to Celebrity.

[bEwAbG]

The unethical part is twofold:

 

1. FCC is "funny money" to start.  There is no intrinsic value and it's only good within the environment of the cruise line.  Not illegal but certainly not legal tender.  It has zero value if restrictions will not allow people to sail, and there are published restrictions that were put in place AFTER people had passed the point of turning back.  The cruise contract has changed.  The rules therefore need to change to allow full cash refunds for those people who do not meet the published restrictions.  If you want to allow people to keep the FCC because they think the restrictions might change again, knock yourself out.  However, give the money back to those who can prove today that they would not be allowed to sail under the currently published restrictions.

 

2. There is a population of people who were forced to cancel under the Cruise with Confidence program, which only allowed for FCC and not a cash refund.  I say "forced" because the cruise lines were being so aggressive in insisting they could send their ships out in the middle of a pandemic.  That topic has been covered plenty here.  It was not an ethical decision to force people to choose between losing everything, taking a gift certificate that they may or may not be able to use in the future, or going to sea in the middle of a health crisis that could (and did) result in death. 

 

I don't know how anyone could argue the finer points of that last part because the risk was very much known at the time all of this was going down.  I'll grant that decisions were being made in the heat of the moment by the cruise lines.  There's now been enough time between then and now that they could change course and allow exceptions for those caught in the middle of it, especially if one cannot sail under the restrictions currently in place.

[llawrence]

Excellent take on what is going on.....Regardless of how you acquired your FCC.....if it was acquired prior to the “fit to sail”.you should get a refund if you can prove you are in a listed categories.  Instituting the “fit to Sail” means Celebrity changed the terms of the contract , not the cruiser. 

[Bo1953]

4 minutes ago, llawrence said:

Excellent take on what is going on.....Regardless of how you acquired your FCC.....if it was acquired prior to the “fit to sail”.you should get a refund if you can prove you are in a listed categories.  Instituting the “fit to Sail” means Celebrity changed the terms of the contract , not the cruiser. 

Please think "CDC and CLIA" forced the change and X complied.

 

bon voyage

[llawrence]

As I understand it , it was a suggestion not a requirement...I went  back to both websites and never saw where it was any type of requirement.....I am not an attorney so I don’t know the  legal aspects of a cdc directive...but it seems RCL took it and ran in a different direction then other lines....

[llawrence]

Even if it was a requirement .....that requirement was not in my signed contract with Celebrity...I would never had booked if it was.

[bEwAbG]

5 minutes ago, Bo1953 said:

Please think "CDC and CLIA" forced the change and X complied.

 

Either way, it's not the passenger's fault yet X is treating it like it is

 

1 minute ago, llawrence said:

As I understand it , it was a suggestion not a requirement...I went  back to both websites and never saw where it was any type of requirement.....I am not an attorney so I don’t know the  legal aspects of a cdc directive...but it seems RCL took it and ran in a different direction then other lines....

 

The CLIA stuff was to keep the U.S. government from intervening and shutting them down.  It was a Hail Mary pass to show that they were prepared to do what it took to keep operating.  It didn't work, obviously.  I think that RCCL is keeping that policy in place as they negotiate what they will need to do to start sailing again.  "We were serious then, and we're serious now" type of stuff.  I would imagine that it will change somewhat in the end, but they're being very conservative in their approach.

[az_tchr]

On 4/24/2020 at 8:13 PM, jagoffee said:

We will just have to disagree, cruise lines cannot possible know who can cruise and when they can cruise, due to the No Sail order and yet to be developed criteria.

Are you suggesting that when Celebrity is cancelling a cruise, one is not given the option for a full refund back to the original method of payment? (Assuming you did not pick the more generous credit).
If yes, why would you call it unethical?

It is unethical when for example you have a deposit or a FCC provided under Cruise with Confidence and later they changed the rules making it impossible for you to cruise.

Am positive when cruises resume that there will either be full refunds or lawsuits and more horrible publicity if this group of people are not allowed to cruise.

I believe that Celebrity's statement that the "note" requirement was temporary still stands.  Things seem to change often with cruiselines today.

[llawrence]

Where is the statement about it being temporary....I could not find it on the website.

[Eglesbrech]

On 4/25/2020 at 12:13 PM, Bo1953 said:

Lest we forget, cruise lines are not 'required' by regulation to offer refunds under any situation or condition.

 

Read the CoC, as another poster on another thread suggested that cruise lines were required to offer refunds and I Am still waiting for them to point out ANY regulation, law or CoC where this is true.

 

Cruise lines are providing refunds, to some degree and it is taking time for whatever reason or thought process.

 

Yes, I Am waiting for one (1) refund of four (4) trips, I have moved three (3) to future dates with the distinct understanding that at some future point, I will get a refund if I were to change my mind about those sailings.

 

bon voyage

They are in the EU /U.K. and within 14 days of cancellation where they cancel the holiday. I fully appreciate that this may well be different in other jurisdictions.

 

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukdsi/2018/9780111168479/contents

 

There are also regulations governing unfair contract provisions. So if they unilaterally change the T&Cs to include new health restrictions it can be challenged (unless prescribed by government as for example cruising for those over 70 and with specific health conditions is at the moment by the U.K. gov, this may be rescinded in time).

[cruise kitty]

On 4/24/2020 at 8:13 PM, jagoffee said:

We will just have to disagree, cruise lines cannot possible know who can cruise and when they can cruise, due to the No Sail order and yet to be developed criteria.

Are you suggesting that when Celebrity is cancelling a cruise, one is not given the option for a full refund back to the original method of payment? (Assuming you did not pick the more generous credit).
If yes, why would you call it unethical?

 

Giving me the option for a full refund is useless if they don't actually provide the refund....  it's been well over a month now & like Rhianna says:  "B***h better have my money"  lol    They are also playing games with Cruise Air money....  they never paid Delta for my flight, but they want Delta to refund me.....   completely unethical.   

[hcat]

You might want to look at  threads about how long cancellation refunds may take, and the refund cruise tracker..  more than a few  in your time frame are seeing progress...refunds back to their credit card with and without filing a dispute... these threads may be more in line with your issue,

 

.  No idea about the  airfare issues??? Hopefully not tied up with your cruise cancellation?

Edited April 26, 2020 by hcat

[Bo1953]

17 hours ago, bEwAbG said:

 

Either way, it's not the passenger's fault yet X is treating it like it is

 

 

The CLIA stuff was to keep the U.S. government from intervening and shutting them down.  It was a Hail Mary pass to show that they were prepared to do what it took to keep operating.  It didn't work, obviously.  I think that RCCL is keeping that policy in place as they negotiate what they will need to do to start sailing again.  "We were serious then, and we're serious now" type of stuff.  I would imagine that it will change somewhat in the end, but they're being very conservative in their approach.

It is not personal on their side it is only business.

 

bon voyage