Are vaccines the light at the end of the tunnel?

[terrydtx]

24 minutes ago, TeeRick said:

IMO.  It does not matter much what all of these experts say.  Or what their title is.  Or what country they are from.  They are waiting for the vaccine data from phase 3 trials just like the rest of us.  Perhaps then their quotes about timelines to vaccinate people will be more meaningful.

Brilliant response and 100% accurate. It seems like some in this forum want the vaccines to all fail, probably because they are the ones who will never want to be vacinated. 

[TeeRick]

Blueprint for COVID vaccination in the EU and UK.  Aims at initially 40% of the population.

 

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-eu-vaccination/eu-eyes-initial-covid-19-vaccination-for-at-least-40-of-population-idUSKBN25M1KW

[Ken the cruiser]

23 minutes ago, TeeRick said:

Blueprint for COVID vaccination in the EU and UK.  Aims at initially 40% of the population.

 

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-eu-vaccination/eu-eyes-initial-covid-19-vaccination-for-at-least-40-of-population-idUSKBN25M1KW

Thanks TeeRick! It's always good to read about progress, whether it's about the actual vaccine or the logistics associated with it. Kind of like when you're on a long cross country road trip. It's always nice to see signs along the way that you're getting closer to your destination, even though you know you're still a long ways away.

[TeeRick]

And here is what the US CDC says in their new guidelines presented on Aug 26th on the priority for initial vaccine doses.

 

https://www.cnbc.com/2020/08/26/coronavirus-vaccine-cdc-proposes-guidelines-for-distributing-vaccine-in-us.html

[K.T.B.]

21 minutes ago, TeeRick said:

And here is what the US CDC says in their new guidelines presented on Aug 26th on the priority for initial vaccine doses.

 

https://www.cnbc.com/2020/08/26/coronavirus-vaccine-cdc-proposes-guidelines-for-distributing-vaccine-in-us.html

 

Their population numbers are way off.  BUT I'm sure there's some "bleed over" in terms of people with medical conditions and people over the age of 65, as well as with essential personnel.

 

Best guess, maybe about 150-175 million people make up the 4 groups they mention in the article.  

[Crazy planning mom]

49 minutes ago, TeeRick said:

And here is what the US CDC says in their new guidelines presented on Aug 26th on the priority for initial vaccine doses.

 

https://www.cnbc.com/2020/08/26/coronavirus-vaccine-cdc-proposes-guidelines-for-distributing-vaccine-in-us.html

Glad to hear that progress is being made.  Do you think the rest of us who want it might be able to get it in spring?

[OceanCruise]

I am a bit leery about a vaccine that is being rushed through that is also designed to alter our DNA. After all, there has been no vaccine for SARS, AIDS, or the common cold (which is a coronvirus) after all these years. Many doctors say there are effective treatments available now. For those of you that like to look at the actual scientific research, the website: c19study.com has the links to over 70 clinical research studies regarding use of hydroxychloroquine for Covid and many (although not all) of these scientific studies actually show effectiveness if given in the early phase of symptoms (pre-hospital). You can draw your own conclusions. Dr Vladimir Zelenko, an internist with a lot of successful experience treating Covid patients presents a pre-hospital Covid protocol for low risk and high risk patients https://docs.google.com/document/d/1TaRDwXMhQHSMsgrs9TFBclHjPHerXMuB87DUXmcAvwg/edit  

and this is his clinical research study https://thezelenkoprotocol.com/   His twitter feed is also interesting https://twitter.com/zev_dr

 

[TeeRick]

9 minutes ago, OceanCruise said:

I am a bit leery about a vaccine that is being rushed through that is also designed to alter our DNA. After all, there has been no vaccine for SARS, AIDS, or the common cold (which is a coronvirus) after all these years. Many doctors say there are effective treatments available now. For those of you that like to look at the actual scientific research, the website: c19study.com has the links to over 70 clinical research studies regarding use of hydroxychloroquine for Covid and many (although not all) of these scientific studies actually show effectiveness if given in the early phase of symptoms (pre-hospital). You can draw your own conclusions. Dr Vladimir Zelenko, an internist with a lot of successful experience treating Covid patients presents a pre-hospital Covid protocol for low risk and high risk patients https://docs.google.com/document/d/1TaRDwXMhQHSMsgrs9TFBclHjPHerXMuB87DUXmcAvwg/edit  

and this is his clinical research study https://thezelenkoprotocol.com/   His twitter feed is also interesting https://twitter.com/zev_dr

 

The vaccines under development are not being designed to alter our DNA.  The Dr Zelenko that you mention has been censored for spreading misinformation.  And according to this article he has left his practice, whereabouts unknown.  Please do not promote such individuals on this site.  

 

https://www.physiciansweekly.com/the-skeptical-scalpel-awards/

[OceanCruise]

1 hour ago, TeeRick said:

The vaccines under development are not being designed to alter our DNA.  The Dr Zelenko that you mention has been censored for spreading misinformation.  And according to this article he has left his practice, whereabouts unknown.  Please do not promote such individuals on this site.  

 

https://www.physiciansweekly.com/the-skeptical-scalpel-awards/

The doctor left his practice recently because he has cancer (he had surgery last month) which he openly discusses. He ihas done many media interviews (i.e. with Dr Drew Pinsky show and Rudy Guiliani) and has advised heads of state regarding Covid treatment. Why don't you look at the specifics of his study plus those of the other 70+ scientific studies by various researchers. 

[OceanCruise]

 

The Covid vaccines have a different mechanism:

 

" Unlike traditional vaccines, which require the laborious production of actual viruses or viral proteins, gene-based vaccines are made from DNA or mRNA."......

"There are no approved mRNA or DNA vaccines, and neither has ever been tested in a large-scale clinical trial for an infectious disease. “The COVID crisis is a great opportunity for those technologies to be pushed.”

https://cen.acs.org/pharmaceuticals/vaccines/coronavirus-help-mRNA-DNA-vaccines/98/i14

 

"To address the urgent need for a medical countermeasure to prevent the further dissemination of SARS-CoV-2 we have employed a synthetic DNA-based vaccine approach".

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-020-16505-0

 

[UnorigionalName]

Just now, OceanCruise said:

 

The Covid vaccines have a different mechanism:

...

 

Stop spreading pseudo-science.  It doesn't "alter your DNA" 

 

 A little bit of knowledge can be a dangerous thing...

Edited August 27, 2020 by UnorigionalName

[markeb]

1 hour ago, OceanCruise said:

The doctor left his practice recently because he has cancer (he had surgery last month) which he openly discusses. He ihas done many media interviews (i.e. with Dr Drew Pinsky show and Rudy Guiliani) and has advised heads of state regarding Covid treatment. Why don't you look at the specifics of his study plus those of the other 70+ scientific studies by various researchers. 

 

We all have. It's been discredited by every reputable reviewer who has looked at it, as have pretty much every other study looking at hydroxychloroquine. The only real effect of studying HCQ has been that those of us who use it to control RA and lupus (actually long standing indications with good data) now have to jump through hoops to actually get our med.

[TeeRick]

So some disappointing news about the mRNA type vaccines (Moderna, Pfizer).  They require temperatures for storage that will not be met in most traditional pharmacies or doctor's offices for that matter.  Not sure about the adenovector vaccines (AZ/Oxford).  

https://www.marketwatch.com/story/moderna-and-pfizers-covid-19-vaccine-candidates-require-ultra-low-temperatures-raising-questions-about-storage-distribution-2020-08-27

 

But there is an ongoing effort to overcome this too.

https://www.dw.com/en/coronavirus-covid-19-vaccine-ups-astrazeneca-oxford/a-54691039

 

Presumably the traditional protein subunit vaccine (Novavax) would just require refrigeration.

[phoenix_dream]

On 8/27/2020 at 8:21 AM, TeeRick said:

And here is what the US CDC says in their new guidelines presented on Aug 26th on the priority for initial vaccine doses.

 

https://www.cnbc.com/2020/08/26/coronavirus-vaccine-cdc-proposes-guidelines-for-distributing-vaccine-in-us.html

Interesting.  I am not, nor claim to be, an expert, but I wonder about some of this priority.  Perhaps rather than focusing on people over 65 (and I am one of them, for the record), we should instead be focusing on the people in the workforce to help our economy get back on its feet and stop the deluge of businesses going under.  It's not about not caring about older people (as I said, I am one of them), but purely practical.  Those of us in that age group could continue stricter quarantine practices in the interim for a few months.  I'm also sure I am not alone in thinking I would rather have my 35-50 year old sons protected than be first in line myself. 

 

And does obesity count as having underlying conditions?  I doubt it, and yet obese people are in much, much greater risk of having complications should they get sick.  Medically speaking, a very high portion of the population is technically obese.  ( and please, no one start the fat shaming comments! - we all have loved ones who fit in this category, if not ourselves)

 

I know these are tough decisions, and there is no one right answer.  I also know no matter what plan is released it will be criticized widely.  Hopefully useful vaccines can be produced quickly.

[TeeRick]

24 minutes ago, phoenix_dream said:

Interesting.  I am not, nor claim to be, an expert, but I wonder about some of this priority.  Perhaps rather than focusing on people over 65 (and I am one of them, for the record), we should instead be focusing on the people in the workforce to help our economy get back on its feet and stop the deluge of businesses going under.  It's not about not caring about older people (as I said, I am one of them), but purely practical.  Those of us in that age group could continue stricter quarantine practices in the interim for a few months.  I'm also sure I am not alone in thinking I would rather have my 35-50 year old sons protected than be first in line myself. 

 

And does obesity count as having underlying conditions?  I doubt it, and yet obese people are in much, much greater risk of having complications should they get sick.  Medically speaking, a very high portion of the population is technically obese.  ( and please, no one start the fat shaming comments! - we all have loved ones who fit in this category, if not ourselves)

 

I know these are tough decisions, and there is no one right answer.  I also know no matter what plan is released it will be criticized widely.  Hopefully useful vaccines can be produced quickly.

Interesting thoughts.  My guess is that there will be a large percentage of the initially eligible population that will not choose to get the vaccine at all or might wait.  Also there is a question for the percentage of the population that had a positive test result or was sick with COVID.  Do they need the vaccine??

[BP99]

5 hours ago, TeeRick said:

So some disappointing news about the mRNA type vaccines (Moderna, Pfizer).  They require temperatures for storage that will not be met in most traditional pharmacies or doctor's offices for that matter.  Not sure about the adenovector vaccines (AZ/Oxford).  

https://www.marketwatch.com/story/moderna-and-pfizers-covid-19-vaccine-candidates-require-ultra-low-temperatures-raising-questions-about-storage-distribution-2020-08-27

 

But there is an ongoing effort to overcome this too.

https://www.dw.com/en/coronavirus-covid-19-vaccine-ups-astrazeneca-oxford/a-54691039

 

Presumably the traditional protein subunit vaccine (Novavax) would just require refrigeration.

Hi,

This information (low temperature for storage and distribution) was discussed 

3-4 months ago in the news and also mentioned by me 2 weeks ago in a CC

blurb. Since Moderna is getting HUGE positive news weekly some are

now interested in whether the can actually distribute and injected it into

the masses effectively. There are some reports that others have

been able to store mRNA vaccines at higher temperatures. This may be a bit

of a stumbling block but if it is as great as they report it still may be doable.

[Spif Barwunkel]

Excellent discussion. How fortunate to have several posters whose medical cognition helps provide clarity to the topic at hand. 

 

Like with any new disease or infectious anomaly, C19 has been met head on by the world's greatest scientific minds. I have no doubt that future intervention in the form of a vaccine(s) will help attenuate the virus to an acceptable level. With the natural degradation of the disease coupled with continuing precautions by the global population, we will return to normalcy. However, "the light at the end of the tunnel" in reference to cruising will certainly be reached. "The light at the end of the tunnel" in reference to C19 maybe not. Covid19 will take it's place in the glossary of infectious diseases accommodated by our planet over the years. The best scenario is total eradication. The more realistic scenario projects a plan of yearly vaccinations, just like the flu shots. Some will get them, some won't. Shots will work for some and not for others. And, like phoenix_dream said in post #589, "no matter what plan is released it will be widely criticized". 

 

          

[cangelmd]

8 hours ago, TeeRick said:

So some disappointing news about the mRNA type vaccines (Moderna, Pfizer).  They require temperatures for storage that will not be met in most traditional pharmacies or doctor's offices for that matter.  Not sure about the adenovector vaccines (AZ/Oxford).  

https://www.marketwatch.com/story/moderna-and-pfizers-covid-19-vaccine-candidates-require-ultra-low-temperatures-raising-questions-about-storage-distribution-2020-08-27

 

But there is an ongoing effort to overcome this too.

https://www.dw.com/en/coronavirus-covid-19-vaccine-ups-astrazeneca-oxford/a-54691039

 

Presumably the traditional protein subunit vaccine (Novavax) would just require refrigeration.

Most hospitals should be able to meet the storage requirements (although I didn’t read the thawing requirements). That could just mean funneling the vaccines needing frozen storage to hospitals and large health care entities that can handle them, freeing up other vaccine supplies for retail pharmacy. I’ll ask our pharmacy folks on Monday if we have a 70 below that is monitored and appropriate for drugs - ours in the lab is not.

[TeeRick]

15 hours ago, cangelmd said:

Most hospitals should be able to meet the storage requirements (although I didn’t read the thawing requirements). That could just mean funneling the vaccines needing frozen storage to hospitals and large health care entities that can handle them, freeing up other vaccine supplies for retail pharmacy. I’ll ask our pharmacy folks on Monday if we have a 70 below that is monitored and appropriate for drugs - ours in the lab is not.

Yes you are right with your thoughts.  It is not just about finding a freezer.  It is about the entire cold chain from manufacturing, distribution, storage, and local storage.  All aspects must be validated.  A QC and QA world of events and documentation.  Pharmacies need validated freezers most likely that are certified within the storage temperature range.  And then some method of continuous validation.  So for the mRNA vaccines we might be looking at mass vaccination events that are well controlled vs the pharmacy or doctor's office.  We shall see.

[TeeRick]

19 hours ago, BP99 said:

Hi,

This information (low temperature for storage and distribution) was discussed 

3-4 months ago in the news and also mentioned by me 2 weeks ago in a CC

blurb. Since Moderna is getting HUGE positive news weekly some are

now interested in whether the can actually distribute and injected it into

the masses effectively. There are some reports that others have

been able to store mRNA vaccines at higher temperatures. This may be a bit

of a stumbling block but if it is as great as they report it still may be doable.

Yes I do remember your post from a couple of weeks ago and that this issue has been in the news but mostly glossed over.  

[BP99]

7 minutes ago, TeeRick said:

Yes I do remember your post from a couple of weeks ago and that this issue has been in the news but mostly glossed over.  

Hi,

It seems like the "new news" is also not that accurate.

Some report that the Moderna vaccine is stable  

at -20C (sorry I'm from Canada) which is very close to a

home freezer. It could be shipped on dry ice.

The Pfizer vaccine is the one that needs the "ultra" -70C storage.

These -70C freezers are more rare but mostly found in hospitals

and research labs. From personal experience these -70C freezers

breakdown often and have huge ice build ups if opened and closed

often. You also need thermal glows to handle the material inside.

However, both vaccines are still probably doable. 

 

[BP99]

8 minutes ago, BP99 said:

Hi,

It seems like the "new news" is also not that accurate.

Some report that the Moderna vaccine is stable  

at -20C (sorry I'm from Canada) which is very close to a

home freezer. It could be shipped on dry ice.

The Pfizer vaccine is the one that needs the "ultra" -70C storage.

These -70C freezers are more rare but mostly found in hospitals

and research labs. From personal experience these -70C freezers

breakdown often and have huge ice build ups if opened and closed

often. You also need thermal glows to handle the material inside.

However, both vaccines are still probably doable. 

 

Forgot to add the source:

https://www.fiercepharma.com/manufacturing/pfizer-moderna-s-covid-19-shot-rollouts-could-be-ice-as-analysts-question-cold

 

Also typo: gloves not glows

[TeeRick]

It seems that if Moderna can store their vaccine in a normal freezer at -4 F then the Pfizer vaccine should follow suit.  They are both pretty much the same technology.  If the Pfizer vaccine truly needs -80 F or dry ice then that should be a very negative factor for its widespread success.  I am hoping that one of the protein subunit vaccines is successful.  Tried and true technology and easy to manufacture, store, distribute and store locally.  Also Merck is a bit behind (but not too much) and their VSV vector vaccine has also had success in people (Ebola).

[Ken the cruiser]

1 hour ago, TeeRick said:

It seems that if Moderna can store their vaccine in a normal freezer at -4 F then the Pfizer vaccine should follow suit.  They are both pretty much the same technology.  If the Pfizer vaccine truly needs -80 F or dry ice then that should be a very negative factor for its widespread success.  I am hoping that one of the protein subunit vaccines is successful.  Tried and true technology and easy to manufacture, store, distribute and store locally.  Also Merck is a bit behind (but not too much) and their VSV vector vaccine has also had success in people (Ebola).

OK, here's a question from the peanut gallery. Let's say our local drug store has one of the COVID vaccines that needs to be shipped and stored in a frozen state, -4 F or -80 F, doesn't matter. We walk in and say we'd like to get the COVID vaccine. How long will we have to wait for the vaccine to reach a safe temperature to have it administerred?

[K.T.B.]

4 hours ago, Ken the cruiser said:

OK, here's a question from the peanut gallery. Let's say our local drug store has one of the COVID vaccines that needs to be shipped and stored in a frozen state, -4 F or -80 F, doesn't matter. We walk in and say we'd like to get the COVID vaccine. How long will we have to wait for the vaccine to reach a safe temperature to have it administerred?

 

IIRC, the shingles vaccine needs to be kept at -5° F.  It's given pretty much ASAP once you request one.