CLIA cruise lines to test every passenger for Covid

[MISTER 67]

On 10/9/2020 at 3:08 PM, jelayne said:

 

What would you recommend that the cruise lines do to minimize that possibly infected passenger board?  

What do they do about other diseases?

We've been on 62 cruises and to tell the truth we believe the lines have been lax in cleanliness, ventilation and buffet procedures. Holland America is our line of choice and they do the best job in cleanliness and buffet procedures, not sure about ventilation.

 

Edited October 14, 2020 by MISTER 67

[markeb]

1 hour ago, Ride-The-Waves said:

Vaccines?  COVID-19 is mutating faster than the medical labs can keep up.  Any vaccines for one strain will not protect against the others.  Which is the same for flu between the northern and southern hemispheres.

 

 

Source? The mutations have so far not significantly impacted the immunogenicity of the SPIKE target. It is not the flu, nor is it mutating like the flu.

[terrydtx]

3 hours ago, Ride-The-Waves said:

Vaccines?  COVID-19 is mutating faster than the medical labs can keep up.  Any vaccines for one strain will not protect against the others.  Which is the same for flu between the northern and southern hemispheres

What is your source? There is very little  proof, if any that Covid 19 is mutating as you say. It is irresponsible posts like this that do nothing but confuse the uninformed.

 

Here is a source on this: https://www.sciencefocus.com/news/covid-19-is-the-virus-mutating/

[nocl]

4 hours ago, Ride-The-Waves said:

This doesn't do squat to make cruising safer.  

 

Europe and about 30 US states are experiencing significant increases in COVID-19 infections with the onset of cooler weather.  Expect that to continue to increase as winter approaches and envelops the northern hemisphere.

 

Vaccines?  COVID-19 is mutating faster than the medical labs can keep up.  Any vaccines for one strain will not protect against the others.  Which is the same for flu between the northern and southern hemispheres.

 

Until the cruise lines themselves, and the ships, come up with enforceable rules for social distancing, wearing of PPE,  processing of passengers, and ports accept cruise passengers, cruising as we have known it will continue to be a long way off in the future.

So far mapping of the various strains m, show relatively minor mutations, all of contain the horns which the vaccines are aimed at. So the mutations should not impact the vaccine.

 

Any mutation that eliminates the horn, and  thus impacts the vaccine, would not be much of an issue since the horn is the mechanism by how it invades cells.

[Covepointcruiser]

Maryland is listed but we are not experiencing significant increases!    Where do you get the bogus numbers?

[phoenix_dream]

3 hours ago, MISTER 67 said:

What do they do about other diseases?

We've been on 62 cruises and to tell the truth we believe the lines have been lax in cleanliness, ventilation and buffet procedures. Holland America is our line of choice and they do the best job in cleanliness and buffet procedures, not sure about ventilation.

 

I can't speak to Holland America as I have never sailed them.  I can tell you, however, that Celebrity consistently scores extremely high in cleanliness after evaluations (sorry, I forget the official name of them right now).  I have sailed Celebrity over 50 times and I have always felt they did an excellent job with cleanliness - there seems to always be someone cleaning the ship when you walk around.  As to ventilation - I can't really speak to that - I don't think it really became that big a thing until this virus broke out.  Their major big issue before was norovirus, which can be caught through the air but in a much more limited way than coronavirus and is most often transferred through touch.

[TeeRick]

18 hours ago, Ride-The-Waves said:

This doesn't do squat to make cruising safer.  

 

Europe and about 30 US states are experiencing significant increases in COVID-19 infections with the onset of cooler weather.  Expect that to continue to increase as winter approaches and envelops the northern hemisphere.

 

Vaccines?  COVID-19 is mutating faster than the medical labs can keep up.  Any vaccines for one strain will not protect against the others.  Which is the same for flu between the northern and southern hemispheres.

 

Until the cruise lines themselves, and the ships, come up with enforceable rules for social distancing, wearing of PPE,  processing of passengers, and ports accept cruise passengers, cruising as we have known it will continue to be a long way off in the future.

Agree- Cruising as we used to know it will be a long way off.  But cruising is already happening and will be expanded soon.

Agree- Positive tests will continue to increase as people are more indoors now in N. Hemisphere.  Much more testing in place now too.  But will this translate to a major strain on the healthcare system?  So far no.  But we will see.

Disagree- the virus SARS-CoV-2 has some identified mutations in different parts of the world but it is not mutating beyond the reaches of a vaccine.  The mutations are expected.  But if the vaccines are against critical functional and conserved regions of the virus they will not matter much.

Disagree- SARS-CoV-2 and Influenza viruses are not the same and vaccine approaches are not the same.

[NCHPcruiser]

In my area,  central North Carolina, where testing is widely available, there are far and away more false NEGATIVES than positives.   I have not heard of any false positives (though I have no doubt there have been some) however I personally know of several false negatives.  In one case a friend tested negative three times before finally testing positive.  It was obvious she had COVID but was denied the correct treatment 10 days, eventually being hospitalized for two weeks.  The false negatives worry me far more than the false positives!  

[TeeRick]

1 hour ago, NCHPcruiser said:

In my area,  central North Carolina, where testing is widely available, there are far and away more false NEGATIVES than positives.   I have not heard of any false positives (though I have no doubt there have been some) however I personally know of several false negatives.  In one case a friend tested negative three times before finally testing positive.  It was obvious she had COVID but was denied the correct treatment 10 days, eventually being hospitalized for two weeks.  The false negatives worry me far more than the false positives!  

A lot depends on the type of test.  The rapid Antigen Test will be negative for perhaps a few days (2-3) after you are exposed/infected.  It requires a level of antigen to build up from the replicating virus.  The RT-PCR test is usually more sensitive and can detect virus sooner.  If somebody is infected and has COVID symptoms (like your friend) then either test will be (should be) positive.  If ships and ports are doing only the Antigen Test for screening then there is a chance of false negatives as you say being of some concern particularly in the early stages of exposure and infection.  

[nocl]

2 hours ago, TeeRick said:

A lot depends on the type of test.  The rapid Antigen Test will be negative for perhaps a few days (2-3) after you are exposed/infected.  It requires a level of antigen to build up from the replicating virus.  The RT-PCR test is usually more sensitive and can detect virus sooner.  If somebody is infected and has COVID symptoms (like your friend) then either test will be (should be) positive.  If ships and ports are doing only the Antigen Test for screening then there is a chance of false negatives as you say being of some concern particularly in the early stages of exposure and infection.  

Remember that even with PCR the John Hopkins paper indicated that even at best there was a 20% false negative rate (around day 7 if I recall correctly), and both before and after that time frame the percentage got worse, often considerable worse during the first 5 days of infection, around 60% in the first 3 days.

 

There are numerous reports of people getting multiple negative tests, even with PCR, before testing positive.  Even while in intensive care.

 

Testing is a tool, but a limited one. Best use for a large group would be to give an indication about the disease incidence, more so than to be counted on as a screening method. The number of detected cases would be an indicator of e odds of an undetected case also being present.

Edited October 15, 2020 by nocl

[Ride-The-Waves]

Today the US is reporting 85,085 new cases of COVID-19.  That is about 15 percent higher than the pandemic peak in May and up 4,000 from the previous day.  US deaths today 925 with Texas (113) and Florida (73) leading the way.  Its getting worse, not better.  Stay safe.

[TeeRick]

R-T-W,

Not really sure what you posting these daily numbers in different threads on CC is doing (speaking for me anyway).  I understand that the surges are happening in a number of states in the US and in some parts of Europe and Canada.  Most of us can read about the numbers on a daily basis.  So exactly what are you trying to communicate to us that we do not already know?  I do agree with the well wish for us to stay safe.  

[4774Papa]

On 10/9/2020 at 4:35 PM, TMLAalum said:

 

Yes, I think of our governor who tested + and was denied access to a very important event. That evening- with a better, more accurate test, he was negative. Never did have the virus.

 

Conversely, false negatives could be far more disastrous! 

Agree, accurate testing is important.

 

We have a transatlantic cruise from Rome to Tampa booked for October 2021.   We were planning to spend a couple of weeks in Italy prior to the cruise.   If we have to be tested for COVID-19 prior to boarding, where will be find such tests.

More importantly, if we fail, how do we get home, since we probably can't fly for a couple of weeks?

 

Hopefully, a vaccine will be available and that will take the place of a test.

[Ride-The-Waves]

On 10/25/2020 at 9:45 AM, TeeRick said:

R-T-W,

Not really sure what you posting these daily numbers in different threads on CC is doing (speaking for me anyway).  I understand that the surges are happening in a number of states in the US and in some parts of Europe and Canada.  Most of us can read about the numbers on a daily basis.  So exactly what are you trying to communicate to us that we do not already know?  I do agree with the well wish for us to stay safe.  

 

Yes - the numbers are scary, aren't they.  Sorry.  Numbers are reality, not fantasy.  And its going to get a lot worst before we begin to see progress.  All of us who seek to cruise again some day, in whatever form it will be, need to understand and do what is needed to reduce the threat to health cause by COVID-19.  There are many who still go maskless, believe that a vaccine will be a panacea and available within months, and worse maybe don't take this virus as a serious threat to human health.  Just think where we could be without all the suppression efforts, closings, isolations, mask wearing, cleaning, etc.  Likely back in the Black Plague era where the behavior that apparently stopped the spread was social distancing (although they didn't know it as such back then).  

 

Cruising as we know it is not returning.  When cruising does return it will come with restrictions and practices many will not enjoy.  We have to be ready for that, understand why, and be religious about practicing and supporting the new procedures. 

[nocl]

18 minutes ago, Ride-The-Waves said:

 

Yes - the numbers are scary, aren't they.  Sorry.  Numbers are reality, not fantasy.  And its going to get a lot worst before we begin to see progress.  All of us who seek to cruise again some day, in whatever form it will be, need to understand and do what is needed to reduce the threat to health cause by COVID-19.  There are many who still go maskless, believe that a vaccine will be a panacea and available within months, and worse maybe don't take this virus as a serious threat to human health.  Just think where we could be without all the suppression efforts, closings, isolations, mask wearing, cleaning, etc.  Likely back in the Black Plague era where the behavior that apparently stopped the spread was social distancing (although they didn't know it as such back then).  

 

Cruising as we know it is not returning.  When cruising does return it will come with restrictions and practices many will not enjoy.  We have to be ready for that, understand why, and be religious about practicing and supporting the new procedures. 

Actually with black plague the behavior was controlling the rat population in the towns and cities. Though the plague was self limiting in that it killed so many people and rats for that matter that it could no longer spread. Its mechanism for spread is mostly by fleas from small animals.  Social distancing not much effect.

Edited October 26, 2020 by nocl

[phoenix_dream]

1 hour ago, nocl said:

Actually with black plague the behavior was controlling the rat population in the towns and cities. Though the plague was self limiting in that it killed so many people and rats for that matter that it could no longer spread. Its mechanism for spread is mostly by fleas from small animals.  Social distancing not much effect.

I have to say these threads can sometimes detour into some pretty interesting discussions, but I never thought we'd be discussing rats😎

[nocl]

48 minutes ago, phoenix_dream said:

I have to say these threads can sometimes detour into some pretty interesting discussions, but I never thought we'd be discussing rats😎

Not even those deserting a sinking ship 😀

[markeb]

Deleted content. didn't get the quotes in.

Edited October 26, 2020 by markeb

[markeb]

1 hour ago, phoenix_dream said:

I have to say these threads can sometimes detour into some pretty interesting discussions, but I never thought we'd be discussing rats😎

 

40 minutes ago, nocl said:

Not even those deserting a sinking ship 😀

 

Just remember to kill the fleas before you kill the rats...

 

(Useless plague control trivia. Unless you live in the Four Corners area where that's actually what they do. You don't want hungry fleas without rats or prairie dogs around.)

[TeeRick]

19 hours ago, Ride-The-Waves said:

 

Yes - the numbers are scary, aren't they.  Sorry.  Numbers are reality, not fantasy.  And its going to get a lot worst before we begin to see progress.  All of us who seek to cruise again some day, in whatever form it will be, need to understand and do what is needed to reduce the threat to health cause by COVID-19.  There are many who still go maskless, believe that a vaccine will be a panacea and available within months, and worse maybe don't take this virus as a serious threat to human health.  Just think where we could be without all the suppression efforts, closings, isolations, mask wearing, cleaning, etc.  Likely back in the Black Plague era where the behavior that apparently stopped the spread was social distancing (although they didn't know it as such back then).  

 

Cruising as we know it is not returning.  When cruising does return it will come with restrictions and practices many will not enjoy.  We have to be ready for that, understand why, and be religious about practicing and supporting the new procedures. 

A interesting analogy might be the plague known as Smallpox.  This virus was found going back at least to the third century AD.  It is a respiratory virus mainly spread by respiratory droplets just like COVID-19.  By the middle ages some parts of the world discovered it could be slowed by face coverings.  It is a fact that 30% of the people who were exposed and became sick died.  Vaccine was developed by Edward Jenner starting in 1796 but the last known case in the world was 1975.  Hope the COVID vaccine gets rid of the SARS-CoV-2 virus much quicker than that!

[markeb]

8 minutes ago, TeeRick said:

It is a fact that 30% of the people who were exposed and became sick died.  Vaccine was developed by Edward Jenner starting in 1796 but the last known case in the world was 1975. 

 

We're having thread drift here, but what's most interesting, in a bizarre way, about smallpox is that "vaccination" (vacca=cow for cowpox) developed over at least a couple of centuries, most likely in the Far East, spreading to the Middle East, in the form of variolation, actually using smallpox (Variola) in recovered scabs from pox lesions by a skilled variolator who would scratch the surface of the skin, usually in the upper back, and rub the material into the resulting wound. This would usually result in a much more minor disease, a local pox lesion, and a small lifelong scar. Sometimes (if memory serves that was 10% or more) it would result in death, what we'd consider a significant adverse event today...

 

The technique wasn't entirely developed to prevent death; most of the subjects were daughters of the upper class and even royalty. Successful variolation prevented pox lesions on their faces and kept them more likely to marry into money or royalty. If they didn't die. European nobility and even some royalty sent or traveled with their daughters to Istanbul/Constantinople for variolation. The scar on their back was considered desirable. Jenner recognized that milkmaids rarely had facial scarring but many had minor scarring around their hands and postulated the scarring from cowpox was preventing smallpox and the milkmaids weren't occasionally dying of cowpox. And then performed one of probably the two most unethical (Pasteur's rabies vaccine being the other) but ultimately successful human vaccine experiments in history.

 

And now back to COVID-19 testing!

[TeeRick]

13 minutes ago, markeb said:

 

We're having thread drift here, but what's most interesting, in a bizarre way, about smallpox is that "vaccination" (vacca=cow for cowpox) developed over at least a couple of centuries, most likely in the Far East, spreading to the Middle East, in the form of variolation, actually using smallpox (Variola) in recovered scabs from pox lesions by a skilled variolator who would scratch the surface of the skin, usually in the upper back, and rub the material into the resulting wound. This would usually result in a much more minor disease, a local pox lesion, and a small lifelong scar. Sometimes (if memory serves that was 10% or more) it would result in death, what we'd consider a significant adverse event today...

 

The technique wasn't entirely developed to prevent death; most of the subjects were daughters of the upper class and even royalty. Successful variolation prevented pox lesions on their faces and kept them more likely to marry into money or royalty. If they didn't die. European nobility and even some royalty sent or traveled with their daughters to Istanbul/Constantinople for variolation. The scar on their back was considered desirable. Jenner recognized that milkmaids rarely had facial scarring but many had minor scarring around their hands and postulated the scarring from cowpox was preventing smallpox and the milkmaids weren't occasionally dying of cowpox. And then performed one of probably the two most unethical (Pasteur's rabies vaccine being the other) but ultimately successful human vaccine experiments in history.

 

And now back to COVID-19 testing!

Agree that this story is one of the most interesting ones in medical history.  Well known by us vaccine Geeks!  Yes back to COVID-19 testing.  Sorry for the diversion. But I thought Smallpox was a better analogy to COVID-19 than the Black Plague spread by fleas biting rodents.

[nocl]

1 hour ago, markeb said:

 

We're having thread drift here, but what's most interesting, in a bizarre way, about smallpox is that "vaccination" (vacca=cow for cowpox) developed over at least a couple of centuries, most likely in the Far East, spreading to the Middle East, in the form of variolation, actually using smallpox (Variola) in recovered scabs from pox lesions by a skilled variolator who would scratch the surface of the skin, usually in the upper back, and rub the material into the resulting wound. This would usually result in a much more minor disease, a local pox lesion, and a small lifelong scar. Sometimes (if memory serves that was 10% or more) it would result in death, what we'd consider a significant adverse event today...

 

The technique wasn't entirely developed to prevent death; most of the subjects were daughters of the upper class and even royalty. Successful variolation prevented pox lesions on their faces and kept them more likely to marry into money or royalty. If they didn't die. European nobility and even some royalty sent or traveled with their daughters to Istanbul/Constantinople for variolation. The scar on their back was considered desirable. Jenner recognized that milkmaids rarely had facial scarring but many had minor scarring around their hands and postulated the scarring from cowpox was preventing smallpox and the milkmaids weren't occasionally dying of cowpox. And then performed one of probably the two most unethical (Pasteur's rabies vaccine being the other) but ultimately successful human vaccine experiments in history.

 

And now back to COVID-19 testing!

Certainly by the standards of today, unethical, but at that time, in the case of rabies, the option being almost certain death, maybe not.

[Lady Chew]

I for one find these occasional history lessons very interesting, and appreciate them very much!  

[Goodtime Cruizin]

On 10/9/2020 at 3:45 PM, hcat said:

Many Open questions....

 

Do we try and get a test at home before the cruise?  If so, what type and where? Who pays?

 

Do we get tested in the port pre cruise..how soon pre cruise,?,  where and what test,  who pays? (  entity at Tampa Airport offers   tests , not sure what type,  expensive and not an instant result afaik...)

 

Will pax be tested at boarding time?  If positive, then what?

 

Will pax with vaccination certifs ( when the time comes) still need tests?

 

Will this be worth the trouble?   Can we get cash for our fcc if we are done with cruising?

 

I csn only answer one of your questions w/ confidence...

 

Who pays?  

You can bet your bottom dollar that the passengers will be financially responsible for testing.