Key West?

[NapTown Jim]

I'm a little confused why HAL still lists Key West as a stop on many of their itineraries.  I thought Key West voted to ban cruise visits 3 months ago.  Is HAL hoping that referendum will be overturned?

[KirkNC]

Either it’s a mistake that will be changed to other ports or HAL is waiting until the legal challenges to the ban are adjudicated.

[DFD1]

I read today that the Florida legislature will consider a bill in the upcoming session to over-ride the Key West local government decision.....claiming the port there belongs to the State of Florida and is governed by the State and the local government cannot create local restrictions as to size and nature of vessels docking there....or the number of passengers those vessels carry.

 

This suggests it is a matter of jurisdiction.....state or local.

 

The article also suggested the presence of a very active Cruise Industry lobby which is attempting to influence the decision....no surprise there.

 

 

Edited January 7, 2021 by DFD1

[ontheweb]

57 minutes ago, DFD1 said:

I read today that the Florida legislature will consider a bill in the upcoming session to over-ride the Key West local government decision.....claiming the port there belongs to the State of Florida and is governed by the State and the local government cannot create local restrictions as to size and nature of vessels docking there....or the number of passengers those vessels carry.

 

This suggests it is a matter of jurisdiction.....state or local.

 

The article also suggested the presence of a very active Cruise Industry lobby which is attempting to influence the decision....no surprise there.

 

 

That will be one interesting fight.

[rkacruiser]

2 hours ago, ontheweb said:

That will be one interesting fight.

 

The issue of "local control" has been a contentious one for some of Ohio cities.  

[nocl]

One of the docks is clearly owned by the City.  A second dock is owned by the Navy and leased to the City.  The state should not have jurisdiction over those two.

 

The 3rd dock is operated by Pier B development Corp under lease from the state.  That could be more of an interesting legal battle.

 

Of course if the City shuts down their 2 then that would limit cruise ships to a max of one per day even if the state wins on the 3rd pier.

[ontheweb]

1 hour ago, rkacruiser said:

 

The issue of "local control" has been a contentious one for some of Ohio cities.  

At one point early in the Covid breakout when NYC was one of the epicenters. The mayor of the city closed the schools. The governor of the state had a hissy fit and said only he could close the schools. And very soon after he in fact closed those schools.

 

Yes, those kind of fights become contentious mainly because everyone involved has a lot of ego.

[Aquahound]

That’s interesting about the state. I don’t see that objection working. The state does not control those docks. The Captain of the Port is federal (USCG) and the docks are owned by the city, the Navy, and Margaritaville Resort. It’s beyond me how the state has standing in this matter. 

[oakridger]

I have been concerned about port overcrowding since my last HAL cruise to Alaska in 2018.  Five ships with total of about 12,000 guests in port in Juneau was too much!  Has there been any discussion about just limiting the number of ships/passengers in any given port per day?  Key West has voted for 1500 passengers per day (I think) so couldn't Juneau or any other port just mandate a total capacity of passengers or ships per day?  For example: only one 3000 pax ship or two 1500 pax or three 1000 pax ships per day (or any combination there of)?   I don't see why any port would really want to ban ships completely. It seems like a win for both cruising and port businesses.

 

~Nancy

 

[Mtn2Sea]

10 hours ago, Aquahound said:

That’s interesting about the state. I don’t see that objection working. The state does not control those docks. The Captain of the Port is federal (USCG) and the docks are owned by the city, the Navy, and Margaritaville Resort. It’s beyond me how the state has standing in this matter. 

Didn’t the state legislature recently overturn the Key West ordinance that banned regular sun screens?

[KirkNC]

7 hours ago, oakridger said:

I have been concerned about port overcrowding since my last HAL cruise to Alaska in 2018.  Five ships with total of about 12,000 guests in port in Juneau was too much!  Has there been any discussion about just limiting the number of ships/passengers in any given port per day?  Key West has voted for 1500 passengers per day (I think) so couldn't Juneau or any other port just mandate a total capacity of passengers or ships per day?  For example: only one 3000 pax ship or two 1500 pax or three 1000 pax ships per day (or any combination there of)?   I don't see why any port would really want to ban ships completely. It seems like a win for both cruising and port businesses.

 

~Nancy

 

Lots of debate over the real economic value of cruise ships to a community.  Not as much debate over the negative impact of over tourism.  One side effect of the pandemic is that it has shown what a community is like without thousands of tourists.  Many residents of those tourists locations like discovering their community again.

[Himself]

Cruise ships are a boon to the local economy.  I hope the State over rules the city of Key West.

[Mary229]

Yeah, as in the other thread I thought a lawsuit might ensue.  Having seen these quarrels in the past the state does indeed have a very good chance of succeeding.  I understand both sides of this predicament, one is for enjoyment of one's private property, the other is for the economic benefit of the community.  I am sure other small port cities will be watching

[rhblake]

It is my understanding that the state does not own the land at or around the port nor any of the docking facilities. I am not sure the state has the authority to override the people of Key West.

[ontheweb]

9 minutes ago, rhblake said:

It is my understanding that the state does not own the land at or around the port nor any of the docking facilities. I am not sure the state has the authority to override the people of Key West.

No one will be really sure until a final court decision is rendered. And that may take quite a bit of time.

[richwmn]

1 hour ago, rhblake said:

It is my understanding that the state does not own the land at or around the port nor any of the docking facilities. I am not sure the state has the authority to override the people of Key West.

 

1 hour ago, ontheweb said:

No one will be really sure until a final court decision is rendered. And that may take quite a bit of time.

and while that is happening, enforcement of the law will be suspended.

[DFD1]

5 hours ago, richwmn said:

 

and while that is happening, enforcement of the law will be suspended.

That explains why Key West remains on many of the HAL itineraries, and of other cruise lines as well.

Thanks for the information.

[rkacruiser]

6 hours ago, richwmn said:

 

and while that is happening, enforcement of the law will be suspended.

 

And, sometimes, the wheels of making "final" decisions are very, very slow to move.  

[Aquahound]

I read the proposed bill and found it interesting.  It makes a good point, focusing on the state's ports and how limitations would negatively impact commerce, including the flow of goods in and out of the state. 

 

Thing is, Key West's deep water port is cruise ship passengers only.  The only non-cruise-ship deep draft that visits Key West is a tanker that ties up at the USCG base in order to feed the Naval Air Station's fuel farm.  The port of Key West has no commercial value to the state or country other than cruise passengers.  

 

Should be an interesting debate in FL.  

Edited January 9, 2021 by Aquahound

[Roz]

Does the port have any value from a national security standpoint?

[ontheweb]

24 minutes ago, rkacruiser said:

 

And, sometimes, the wheels of making "final" decisions are very, very slow to move.  

I am very familiar with that.

 

Years and years ago I was a school board member. We had our voters approve a bond issue for a new middle school plus some improvements to our other buildings. It was approved.

 

Then an attorney with a grudge filed a complaint that we had done something fraudulently. First it took awhile for the Commissioner of Education to throw it out. Then well over a year for the courts to rule when he appealed the Commissioner's decision.

 

The first year really did not mean much because it was more used for planning time. But the next year delayed construction. To do everything we would have been slightly over the approved amount because of the inflation over the time wasted. So we had to cut some things out. And it turned out the bond interest also went up a bit costing our taxpayers money.

[Aquahound]

28 minutes ago, Roz said:

Does the port have any value from a national security standpoint?

 

Well, one of the deep draft piers is owned by the Navy and can dock deep-drafts on the inside of the pier as well.  Further in to the port, the USCG base could port numerous deep draft ships.  With that in mind, I don't think Mallory Square and Pier B have any national security value.

[KirkNC]

Here is a political resolution that would undo the vote.  Boy that would go over well in KW!

 

https://cruiseradio.net/key-wests-cruise-ship-ban-could-soon-be-reversed/

 

 

[rkacruiser]

2 hours ago, KirkNC said:

Here is a political resolution that would undo the vote.  Boy that would go over well in KW!

 

https://cruiseradio.net/key-wests-cruise-ship-ban-could-soon-be-reversed/

 

 

 

Thanks for posting this; it's very interesting to those of us who enjoy visiting Key West during a cruise.  

[cl.klink]

Given, as quoted, that cruise passengers only add 7% to the local tourist economy (93% from non-cruise passengers), but account for ~50% of tourists, it would seem that from a FL point of view that the cost of permitting cruises may not outweigh the benefit.  

 

What do you think?

 

- Joel

Edited January 10, 2021 by cl.klink
left out material