DeSantis could sink our chances of cruising out of Florida

[Goodtime Cruizin]

27 minutes ago, Iamcruzin said:

Logic tells me that just like the flu vaccine, the covid vaccine isn't 100%.   Even enough mild cases can end a cruise or put it into quarantine. Why raise the odds of disrupting your vacation by allowing those who aren't vaccinated to board?

 

As of today, this moment, with what we know now, if I was to go on a cruise ship, I too would want everyone vaxed up. Yet, this still may not be good enough as you posted. I do believe by the time my next cruise comes to date, our world will be, look, and feel completely different than today. We have our next cruise set for July 2022. We shall see.

Edited April 15, 2021 by Goodtime Cruizin

[Iamcruzin]

9 minutes ago, Goodtime Cruizin said:

 

As of today, this moment, with what we know now, if I was to go on a cruise ship, I too would want everyone vaxed up. Yet, this still may not be good enough as you posted. I do believe by the time my next cruise comes to date, our sworld will be, look, and feel completely different than today. We have our next cruise set for July 2022. We shall see.

"As of this moment" is the key to my decision but things are changing and I hope by 2022 we are past this.  The J&J vaccine was just pulled so that's one less vaccine on the market. I still see the elderly fighting to get appointments but I think that has a lot to do with not adapting to technology.  I can't believe how many people my age 60 and younger come in for the vaccine and can't check in because they have a flip phone and can't use the provided iPad.  Then they get all pissy because they have to check in at the Pharmacy.

Edited April 15, 2021 by Iamcruzin

[Ourusualbeach]

30 minutes ago, Goodtime Cruizin said:

 

Meh... I just don't rank them as a ctuise shipcategory, probably due to the size of their ships. 

I said that regarding Silversea....doesn't explain NCL though.

 

FYI NCL, Silversea and Royal all use the same Healthy Sail Panel for guidance

Edited April 15, 2021 by Ourusualbeach

[At Sea At Peace]

As the posts have drifted in and out of various related topics, one thing that I've been waiting for is evidence that the vaccines work. 

 

I've believed for a long time that the number of cases was really meaningless (without the published data of with or without symptoms, extent of symptoms, age, underlying health).

 

I've paid attention to number of hospitalizations.

 

I've been waiting to see a sustained decrease in the number of deaths. 

 

Today, in one of the big state-wide hotspots in the US, Massachusetts, it has been reported that the daily deaths are the lowest in 380 days!  Despite the trend of cases.  👍

 

There is a paywall I believe, but here was one article, followed by worldometers with confirming information.

 

The Vaccines Work

 

https://www.bostonherald.com/2021/04/14/massachusetts-coronavirus-daily-death-count-drops-to-lowest-point-in-380-days-vaccines-work/

 

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/usa/massachusetts/#:~:text=Massachusetts Coronavirus%3A 664%2C943 Cases and,(COVID-19 ) - Worldometer

 

 

[TheMastodon]

28 minutes ago, harkinmr said:

My point was that those who go maskless may want to take their chances with the virus, but they can pass it along to another who might get very sick or die.  We do have an obligation to protect others.  It’s clear you don’t believe in that concept. 

 

N95 or bust .  

 

#virtuesignaling

[Keksie]

43 minutes ago, harkinmr said:

My point was that those who go maskless may want to take their chances with the virus, but they can pass it along to another who might get very sick or die.  We do have an obligation to protect others.  It’s clear you don’t believe in that concept. 

Not if the other person has been vaccinated since their chance of becoming seriously ill goes to zero.  At some point the people who for whatever reason have not been vaccinated need to take responsibility for themselves.  Maybe they need to stay home, stay away from gatherings of people without masks, or just take their chances.  

[xpcdoojk]

59 minutes ago, Jimbo said:

Just trying to reduce the odds where we can, if you would like to jump out of a airplane with no parachute, by all means go right ahead. Maybe you will  be fine or maybe not....

Deep thoughtful post, Jimbo.😂

[xpcdoojk]

55 minutes ago, harkinmr said:

My point was that those who go maskless may want to take their chances with the virus, but they can pass it along to another who might get very sick or die.  We do have an obligation to protect others.  It’s clear you don’t believe in that concept. 

So, it is fine to riot in the streets without safe social distancing, but it is not fine to actually safe social distance on a cruise ship?

 

Another deep thought.

[Keksie]

6 minutes ago, xpcdoojk said:

So, it is fine to riot in the streets without safe social distancing, but it is not fine to actually safe social distance on a cruise ship?

 

Another deep thought.

No one will ever know because people testing positive may be asked if they were in a bar or restaurant but will never be asked if they have been involved in rioting.

[Pratique]

1 hour ago, harkinmr said:

My point was that those who go maskless may want to take their chances with the virus, but they can pass it along to another who might get very sick or die.  We do have an obligation to protect others.  It’s clear you don’t believe in that concept. 

It's not just "we," it is also the obligation of the cruise line under international law. So they can and should have the final say in this matter. We don't get to decide for them what is best for us.

[jaredhamburg]

18 hours ago, cured said:

I don't think mandating vaccines will hurt business, most likely it will help business. Recent surveys by Royal Caribbean and even here on Cruise Critic show that over 80% of current customers prefer a fully vaccinated ship.  Since cruising has such a bad reputation of being a petrie dish (undeserved) in the non-cruising population, it would be easy to surmise that having a fully vaccinated ship would attract some of those people, perhaps even enough to cover the 20% who don't want fully vaccinated cruises.

The problem is that the survey is a subset of the cruising population.  Many people who cruise do not use this web site.  I saw a poll where 41% people were not willing to take the vaccine (https://thehill.com/policy/healthcare/541044-41-percent-say-they-are-not-willing-to-receive-coronavirus-vaccine), and the fact that the J&J vaccine has had a pause surely has not convinced those people.  I do not see how either decision can make business better, to be frank, even with price increases.  Plus, having to prove that you are vaccinated could prove to be a thorny issue from at least a PR perspective.  Either way, some people are sitting out, which is not good for any cruise line trying to get back on its feet, or flippers.  Even if prices go up, the cruise lines' models assume big ships that are full of people.

[MommaBear55]

25 minutes ago, xpcdoojk said:

So, it is fine to riot in the streets without safe social distancing, but it is not fine to actually safe social distance on a cruise ship?

 

Another deep thought.

It's never fine to riot, socially distanced or not

[xpcdoojk]

Hmm.... I have never heard NBC describe them as super spreader events?  Must be ok.😇

[MommaBear55]

2 minutes ago, jaredhamburg said:

The problem is that the survey is a subset of the cruising population.  Many people who cruise do not use this web site.  I saw a poll where 41% people were not willing to take the vaccine (https://thehill.com/policy/healthcare/541044-41-percent-say-they-are-not-willing-to-receive-coronavirus-vaccine), and the fact that the J&J vaccine has had a pause surely has not convinced those people.  I do not see how either decision can make business better, to be frank, even with price increases.  Plus, having to prove that you are vaccinated could prove to be a thorny issue from at least a PR perspective.  Either way, some people are sitting out, which is not good for any cruise line trying to get back on its feet, or flippers.  Even if prices go up, the cruise lines' models assume big ships that are full of people.

There will also be a large group of people who won't cruise unless everyone is vaccinated. I'm sure that the cruise industry is looking at this question closely. Right now Carnival is saying they won't require vaccinations, so pepe who don't want to vaccinate could choose them and those of us who wouldn't sail without people being vaccinated will choose Royal. 

 

And on the J&J vaccine, the incidence of clots is less than the general population. 

[jaredhamburg]

9 minutes ago, MommaBear55 said:

There will also be a large group of people who won't cruise unless everyone is vaccinated. I'm sure that the cruise industry is looking at this question closely. Right now Carnival is saying they won't require vaccinations, so pepe who don't want to vaccinate could choose them and those of us who wouldn't sail without people being vaccinated will choose Royal. 

 

And on the J&J vaccine, the incidence of clots is less than the general population. 

I never said one group was larger that the other.  I said it was a problem either way and showed a poll that was different that the prior quote.  I do not think we know exactly how the numbers slice and dice for cruisers.  Royal had a recent email survey of cruisers who are booked, and I am sure they are using those numbers to help decide.  I would love to know the data they got.

 

I agree that the J&J vaccine has had a very small number of issues, but having a vaccine paused is a PR nightmare when trying to convince people to get vaccinated.  That was the point I was making.  

[harkinmr]

1 hour ago, Keksie said:

Not if the other person has been vaccinated since their chance of becoming seriously ill goes to zero.  At some point the people who for whatever reason have not been vaccinated need to take responsibility for themselves.  Maybe they need to stay home, stay away from gatherings of people without masks, or just take their chances.  

Except there is a significant flaw in your argument.  The person(s) I have responded to have indicated a long-standing credo of no masks, which obviously goes back BEFORE vaccines were available or widely distributed.  The contention that everyone is responsible for themselves does not hold water in the environment of a pandemic.  We have had, and continue to have, an obligation to protect others.  People who fail to see that or fall short in that obligation are the problem.

[harkinmr]

1 hour ago, xpcdoojk said:

So, it is fine to riot in the streets without safe social distancing, but it is not fine to actually safe social distance on a cruise ship?

 

Another deep thought.

Health protocols should be, and will be, in place at the restart of cruising.  Masks and social distancing will be a part of that.  Anyone that doesn't want to wear a mask (or get a vaccine if mandated) will need to either go along or no cruise.  One of the reasons I have personally chosen not to cruise until mid-2022 is that I have no interest in participating in the predictable "freedom and liberty" conflicts that will occur and make everyone else's cruise miserable.

[John&LaLa]

2 hours ago, Goodtime Cruizin said:

 

Meh... I just don't rank them as a ctuise shipcategory, probably due to the size of their ships. 

 

NCL not big enough🤔

[jaredhamburg]

5 minutes ago, harkinmr said:

Except there is a significant flaw in your argument.  The person(s) I have responded to have indicated a long-standing credo of no masks, which obviously goes back BEFORE vaccines were available or widely distributed.  The contention that everyone is responsible for themselves does not hold water in the environment of a pandemic.  We have had, and continue to have, an obligation to protect others.  People who fail to see that or fall short in that obligation are the problem.

Where does this obligation to help others begin and end?  I understand where you are coming from, but we have people drinking and driving, for example.  People do all kinds of things thought of as unkind to the people around them.  I am just concerned when "protecting others" is used in such a way.  It is a very slippery slope.

 

I know you probably feel like this is a no-brainer to get vaccinated, but I truly believe that dictating vaccinations based on protecting others has freedom and rights issues written all over it.

[John&LaLa]

45 minutes ago, MommaBear55 said:

There will also be a large group of people who won't cruise unless everyone is vaccinated. I'm sure that the cruise industry is looking at this question closely. Right now Carnival is saying they won't require vaccinations, so pepe who don't want to vaccinate could choose them and those of us who wouldn't sail without people being vaccinated will choose Royal. 

 

And on the J&J vaccine, the incidence of clots is less than the general population. 

 

But how about the cluster batch they made in Baltimote?

[harkinmr]

19 minutes ago, jaredhamburg said:

Where does this obligation to help others begin and end?  I understand where you are coming from, but we have people drinking and driving, for example.  People do all kinds of things thought of as unkind to the people around them.  I am just concerned when "protecting others" is used in such a way.  It is a very slippery slope.

 

I know you probably feel like this is a no-brainer to get vaccinated, but I truly believe that dictating vaccinations based on protecting others has freedom and rights issues written all over it.

The obligation begins and ends when there is a deadly virus that impacts us all.  Common human decency and, yes, moral obligation comes into play.  I agree that people also have an obligation to not drink and drive and there are criminal and civil penalties for doing so.  Those who choose to drink and drive are violating their obligation to others as well.  Shall we have criminal or civil penalties against those who have been intentionally negligent and sickened another with COVID? 

 

My mother died of COVID.  She lived in a congregate elder care center in Florida and never left there.  A staff member brought COVID into the facility and sickened 40 out of 80 patients, numerous of which passed away, including my mother who suffered terribly.  I don't know whether that staff person was intentionally negligent, but that person suffered no consequences for their actions/inactions.  But I still hold them and the facility she was in responsible for her death.  My opinion.  It is not a slippery slope when it comes to common sense and decency. 

 

Finally, there will be no federal mandate for vaccines at this time.  Could that change in the future.  Maybe.  Vaccine mandates have been upheld in all 50 states for public schools and universities.  The EEOC has said that employers can mandate the COVID vaccine as well.  These mandates have, and will likely continue to be legally supported.  If the cruise lines mandate vaccines it is well within their rights to do so at this time.  Personal freedom and liberty will be left shoreside.

Edited April 15, 2021 by harkinmr

[Iamcruzin]

1 hour ago, MommaBear55 said:

It's never fine to riot, socially distanced or not

Tell that to those in Windjammer during lunch on embarkation day.

Edited April 15, 2021 by Iamcruzin

[jaredhamburg]

4 minutes ago, harkinmr said:

The obligation begins and ends when there is a deadly virus that impacts us all.  Common human decency and, yes, moral obligation comes into play.  I agree that people also have an obligation to not drink and drive and there are criminal and civil penalties for doing so.  Those who choose to drink and drive are violating their obligation to others as well.  Shall we have criminal or civil penalties against those who have been intentionally negligent and sickened another with COVID?  My mother died of COVID.  She lived in a congregate elder care center in Florida and never left there.  A staff member brought COVID into the facility and sickened 40 out of 80 patients, numerous of which passed away, including my mother who suffered terribly.  I don't know whether that staff person was intentionally negligent, but that person suffered no consequences for their actions/inactions.  But I still hold them and the facility she was in responsible for her death.  My opinion.  It is not a slippery slope when it comes to common sense and decency.  Finally, there will be no federal mandate for vaccines at this time.  Could that change in the future.  Maybe.  Vaccine mandates have been upheld in all 50 states for public schools and universities.  The EEOC has said that employers can mandate the COVID vaccine as well.  These mandates have, and will likely continue to be legally supported.  If the cruise lines mandate vaccines it is well within their rights to do so at this time.  Personal freedom and liberty will be left shoreside.

I find it dangerous to mandate a vaccine that is only approved for emergency use.  I am sorry for the loss of your mother.  I personally feel like doing what is "right" and "moral" should not be mandated.  Many people do not want to be vaccinated due to it not being fully approved and several examples of potential issues (pauses with the Astra Zeneca and J&J vaccines).

[Iamcruzin]

1 hour ago, jaredhamburg said:

  Even if prices go up, the cruise lines' models assume big ships that are full of people.

Once they burn through their FCCs even the people here will cut back if cruising no longer holds the same value with price increases.

[harkinmr]

1 minute ago, jaredhamburg said:

I find it dangerous to mandate a vaccine that is only approved for emergency use.  I am sorry for the loss of your mother.  I personally feel like doing what is "right" and "moral" should not be mandated.  Many people do not want to be vaccinated due to it not being fully approved and several examples of potential issues (pauses with the Astra Zeneca and J&J vaccines).

Thank you for your sympathy on my mother's loss.  Moderna and Pfizer have both recently said that they will have sufficient data to go for full and final FDA approval of their vaccines within a few months.  What will be the argument then, other than a dispute as to legal standing?  I'm sure there will be challenges, but mandates have been supported in the past, which is an indication of how things will likely go.