DeSantis could sink our chances of cruising out of Florida

[xpcdoojk]

3 hours ago, ONECRUISER said:

Ha, Yeah! But to those of us been on here since 1997 even you are considered a new poster 😁

 

Of course, as an original 2000 member here, I can’t remember when I joined that year because of weird things on the internet, I got reconceived in August 2003... there may have been knee pads involved.  I think I was here before your join date, but can’t prove it.

 

That said, this is the dumbest thread of the week and it is only Tuesday.

 

jc

Edited April 14, 2021 by xpcdoojk

[cruisinfanatic]

3 hours ago, CPT Trips said:

But . . . (paraphrasing a self proclaimed expert) 

When it gets warmer it will disappear. 

Miami was plenty warm last spring and summer and it didn't disappear

[ONECRUISER]

1 hour ago, John&LaLa said:

 

Seriously

 

Just messing... But yeah I joined AOL/Cruise Critic Dec 26 1997. Desktop Computer was Xmas present from Santa for the Family. Under this Current version Cruise Critic rejoined few months after restart in 2000, think this Site has me at Member number 300 and something. Was in Army Training during conversion and didn't rejoin right away. 

[John&LaLa]

37 minutes ago, Pratique said:

If nobody is complaining then perhaps no order was needed in the first place. So the purpose of the order must be to force everyone into compliance because some wouldn't have done it otherwise. It is ironic that you believe in not creating two classes of people when in fact the courts have upheld (many times) the rights of businesses to exclude certain customers and employees from receiving goods and services on First Amendment grounds.

 

I've read about restaurants in Texas receiving threats and complaints for still requiring Covid precautions since the mask mandate was dropped. I don't doubt for a second that it happens in Florida too.

 

Based on your state motto, I'd guess it happens in NH as well.😉🤣🤣

[MommaBear55]

9 hours ago, D C said:

100%? We know that's not true based on comments made by the officials in many states where if someone died for any reason and tested positive for covid they were indicated as a covid death.  Tracking/counting of covid deaths was sloppy at best in many instances. 

Then please explain the 600,000 deaths in excess of expected.

[firefly333]

19 minutes ago, MommaBear55 said:

Then please explain the 600,000 deaths in excess of expected.

Sloppy counting "in many instances" obviously isnt every death. It's some deaths

 

I know we changed how we counted deaths more than once. If it was exact then there would have been no need to change methods. Very few things in life are exact. Covid has been a evolving learning process.

[Keksie]

38 minutes ago, MommaBear55 said:

Then please explain the 600,000 deaths in excess of expected.

I don't know how anyone can expect how many people will die any given year.  I know several people who over the years were supposed to die and lived for many more years and several people who no one would have predicted would die that year that did.  You have a person with a bad heart condition who contracts covid and dies.  How do you know that even if they didn't contract covid they wouldn't have died that same day?  How do we know that without covid there would have been a bad flu season contributing to more deaths?  

[time4u2go]

7 minutes ago, Keksie said:

I don't know how anyone can expect how many people will die any given year.

Here's a couple of good explanations for that:

 

https://ourworldindata.org/excess-mortality-covid

https://ourworldindata.org/covid-excess-mortality

[Keksie]

2 minutes ago, time4u2go said:

Here's a couple of good explanations for that:

 

https://ourworldindata.org/excess-mortality-covid

https://ourworldindata.org/covid-excess-mortality

It is still just a guess.  Sure you can say x number of people died this year and y number the next year and that was excess but really is it excess or just the number of people who were destined to die that year?   

[Joseph2017China]

20 hours ago, harkinmr said:

He "thinks" he has that authority.  Just saying it does not make it so.  He cannot restrict any business legally operating in Florida from applying reasonable and non-discriminatory (legally defined discrimination) restrictions on access.  Businesses do it all the time, as evidenced by the many, many businesses here in Florida that require and enforce masks and social distancing, to name just a few.  There may well be challenges to vaccine access being discriminatory, but achieving "protected class" status is going to be a tough (and likely unsuccessful) road.  Lastly, ports are controlled at local, state and federal levels.  It is very murky indeed.  But cruises are international travel, and simply based on that he has no authority.

I liked your statement that you believe requiring a vaccine would not be considered non-discriminatory? Having two classes of people?  In a country, that has never made any law mandatory to the control of your body and what you are required to put in it?  I will also add, That I have been eating in restaurants and going in stores for months in Florida without a mask.   Very few places will turn away your money in Florida.  

 

DeSantis is the Governor of Florida, and he also believes in the rights of the people who placed him in office and they have the right to make their own choices, including the right to vaccinate on a trial drug.  

 

Now, I'm no expert, but I do want to point out that some cruises sail now without a vaccine, including a RCCL ship.  So far, the vaccine requirement was based on the countries they are sailing and homeporting at.  Also, there is a big difference between saying wear a mask....and keep distance over the idea of putting an experiment in your arm.  I did chose to get the vaccine, but that was my choice, not a government's choice.  This is still the USA, and Florida is one of the 50 states that comprise of it. 

[DCGuy64]

1 minute ago, Keksie said:

It is still just a guess.  Sure you can say x number of people died this year and y number the next year and that was excess but really is it excess or just the number of people who were destined to die that year?   

An economics professor at JHU, Genevieve Briand, did an interesting comparison of deaths in 2020 vs previous years and essentially found that the number of deaths due to Covid coincided with a decrease in deaths due to other causes, implying that the statistics were just shifted. Her work was subsequently banned and her video on YouTube taken down, along with a hit job in the university's newspaper. That's how things work nowadays: if you don't follow the script, they censor you. Wow.

https://www.jhunewsletter.com/article/2020/11/a-closer-look-at-u-s-deaths-due-to-covid-19

If someone publishes something and another looks at the data and methodology, and finds flaws, that's perfectly reasonable. What I object to is the censoring of the original information. Surely the way to combat 'bad' information is 'good' information, not censorship and banning. What are they so afraid of? Who gets to decide what the public can and cannot see?

[time4u2go]

6 minutes ago, Keksie said:

It is still just a guess.  Sure you can say x number of people died this year and y number the next year and that was excess but really is it excess or just the number of people who were destined to die that year?   

Lol OK.

[MommaBear55]

18 minutes ago, Keksie said:

I don't know how anyone can expect how many people will die any given year.  I know several people who over the years were supposed to die and lived for many more years and several people who no one would have predicted would die that year that did.  You have a person with a bad heart condition who contracts covid and dies.  How do you know that even if they didn't contract covid they wouldn't have died that same day?  How do we know that without covid there would have been a bad flu season contributing to more deaths?  

Epidemiologists and statisticians do know, so here's an article that helps explain it:

https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/2778361

 

When there are excess deaths from flu, they have the data from the testing done, and if it had been that many, we would have had a flu pandemic

[MommaBear55]

11 minutes ago, Keksie said:

It is still just a guess.  Sure you can say x number of people died this year and y number the next year and that was excess but really is it excess or just the number of people who were destined to die that year?   

That's not the way statistics work. Death rate is fairly constant, within a small range of numbers. The only way it fluctuates significantly is if there's a reason, such as war, terrorism or pandemic

[time4u2go]

2 minutes ago, MommaBear55 said:

Epidemiologists and statisticians do know, so here's an article that helps explain it:

https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/2778361

 

When there are excess deaths from flu, they have the data from the testing done, and if it had been that many, we would have had a flu pandemic

Here's another source:

https://www.economist.com/graphic-detail/coronavirus-excess-deaths-tracker

[DCGuy64]

2 minutes ago, MommaBear55 said:

Epidemiologists and statisticians do know, so here's an article that helps explain it:

https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/2778361

 

When there are excess deaths from flu, they have the data from the testing done, and if it had been that many, we would have had a flu pandemic

I'd love to see stats from the past and how often deaths due to the seasonal flu were treated in people with comorbidities. Did someone with stage 4 cancer and the flu get reported as "died of the flu," or someone with a respiratory disease and diabetes, did he/she "die of the flu," or what about someone who died in a car accident but influenza was found postmortem, did that person "die of the flu"? Because that is precisely what has happened with Covid-19. Any death that involved a person with Covid was chalked up to it. Is this the norm? I doubt it.

[erinsmom03]

I can't wait for cruising to restart simply for the fact that maybe then Cruise Critic won't have so many of these kinds of threads... 

[Pratique]

9 hours ago, John&LaLa said:

 

Based on your state motto, I'd guess it happens in NH as well.😉🤣🤣

Still have a mask mandate here and no chance of any new executive orders.

[D C]

1 hour ago, firefly333 said:

Sloppy counting "in many instances" obviously isnt every death. It's some deaths

 

I know we changed how we counted deaths more than once. If it was exact then there would have been no need to change methods. Very few things in life are exact. Covid has been a evolving learning process.

And some places like Michigan are still releasing case data that includes antibody testing in addition to PCR and rapid test results.  

 

In Michigan, if you happen to have a heart attach and die within 30 days of a positive covid test,  you're counted as a covid death, even if your death certificate lists "natural causes".   Dying with any covid symptoms but without any testing can also get logged as a covid death. 

 

 

[Pratique]

3 minutes ago, harkinmr said:

A COVID vaccine requirement does not, at this time, create two "classes" of people.

This two classes thing is a political talking point. And yes, the Supreme Court said over a hundred years ago that schools could require students to be vaccinated, so it's not a novel idea.

[MommaBear55]

17 minutes ago, DCGuy64 said:

I'd love to see stats from the past and how often deaths due to the seasonal flu were treated in people with comorbidities. Did someone with stage 4 cancer and the flu get reported as "died of the flu," or someone with a respiratory disease and diabetes, did he/she "die of the flu," or what about someone who died in a car accident but influenza was found postmortem, did that person "die of the flu"? Because that is precisely what has happened with Covid-19. Any death that involved a person with Covid was chalked up to it. Is this the norm? I doubt it.

The way we fill out death certificates is #1 is whatever killed you today. If you were living with cancer or heart disease or diabetes, and get the flu which causes you not to be able to handle your other illnesses, flu comes first, then there are 5 or 6 other lines to fill in as other diseases it contributing causes. They are all listed, which is why "cause of death" in many lists adds up to more than 100%. 

[DCGuy64]

1 minute ago, MommaBear55 said:

The way we fill out death certificates is #1 is whatever killed you today. If you were living with cancer or heart disease or diabetes, and get the flu which causes you not to be able to handle your other illnesses, flu comes first, then there are 5 or 6 other lines to fill in as other diseases it contributing causes. They are all listed, which is why "cause of death" in many lists adds up to more than 100%. 

So if you're dying of a heart attack and have seconds to live, you stumble out in front of my car and I run you over, the cause of death is "vehicular manslaughter?" Please, dear God, tell me this isn't how medical statistics are reported. Because wow, that puts the Covid deaths in an entirely new light.

[sjg1973]

17 hours ago, DCGuy64 said:

I honestly don't care if others on my cruise are vaccinated or not. It's not up to me to decide for others. I only ask the same in return. I'll be vaccinated (halfway there already), so I'm statistically very unlikely to even get it (again). And if I did, my symptoms would be mild, even milder than when I had Covid before, and that was already mild. I will say having Covid had one positive effect: it was great for getting rid of annoying door-to-door salespeople. You know how fast people can run when you say "I have Covid"? LOL

 

Almost as fast as grocery shopping without a mask like we do.   Never have I got my shopping done so fast.

[ticketsunlimited]

The point I think I was trying to get across when I started the thread has been lost.  What I was saying about the set back that could possibly happen lies in the hands of the Cruise companies.

I really think that if DeSantis' executive order includes cruise companies they will delay their start date until "heard immunity" is obtained.  If they are forced to be told they cannot resume cruises with vaccinated passengers only TO START then they will not risk sailing out of Florida.

Its a world of difference for Royal Caribbean to leave that port knowing if all are vaccinated and not knowing how many really are.  Its always a numbers game in the cruise industry right down to the amount of drink packages they need to sell to break even.

A non vaccinated cruise the way Covid numbers are right now will have to have a number of designated rooms for people that contract Covid during the cruise.  Its bound to happen.  I major outbreak on a ship sets the cruising industry back another year or more.  Maybe even leads to bankruptcy.

To have DeSantis or anybody else tell the cruise companies they cannot require passengers to prove they are fully vaccinated really ties there hands.

I really dont think they are willing to take that risk in the United States right now thus taking away fully vaccinated cruises, thus the set back I was trying to address in the thread.

[Joseph2017China]

1 hour ago, harkinmr said:

A COVID vaccine requirement does not, at this time, create two "classes" of people.  Establishing "protected class" status is a legal concept used in determining if any action is discriminatory.  As I said, there likely will be challenges to a vaccine mandate, but it is a steep climb.  There are already vaccine mandates in all 50 states for children and young adults to attend public school and universities.  Those have been deemed to be lawful.  In addition, the EEOC has come out and said employers can lawfully require that their employees be vaccinated for COVID, provided reasonable exceptions are made for those unable to receive the vaccine for established and documented medical reasons or religious objections.  

 

You say that Governor DeSantis "believes in the rights of the people who placed him in office"?  Does that mean only those who voted for him?  The Governor needs to believe in and protect the rights of ALL of the people of Florida.  That includes those of us that want to protect our health and the business owners that want to protect the health and safety of their employees and patrons.

 

Finally, the vaccines are not an "experiment" by any stretch of the imagination.  They have been tested and have been determined to be effective and safe.  Some folks are hesitant because of concerns about the speed of the trials and authorizations and that is understandable.  More and more of those people each day are making the decision to go ahead and get vaccinated and I think that will continue in larger and larger numbers.  What is not ok is those who have carried this "experimental" line of attack to the extremes and are spreading dangerous falsehoods on social media and elsewhere.  And their insanity is not deserving of respect or protection.

So you mean, as a business owner, you want everyone to be vaccinated with the flu shot?  The flu kills also.  You understand you live in the USA and not a communist country?  We have rights in this country.  By the way, the vaccines are approved for emergency use, and not yet approved by the CDC.  Therefore, it is still experimental.  It also sounds like you are afraid which is fine.  Therefore, the simple solution is to continue to stay away from people and not go on a cruise.  Plus the vaccine is similar to the flu shot.  It does not last forever, and will need a booster every year, with a change for the latest variant.  Your expectation for having proof of vaccine is pretty far fetched.  By the way, I live in Florida, and I very seldom ever put on a mask when going out....that includes restaurants, bars, and the multiple events our state has had this year and last year