Canadian cruisers to USA ports: vaccine challenges w/ cruise lines (inc Celebrity)

[mirkymirk]

My wife and I are scheduled to cruise with Celebrity (Reflection) from Florida in November 2021.  We both live in the Vancouver, BC area and are both fully vaccinated according to our BC provincial health regulations and as per WHO approved vaccines (for emergency use) in Canada.  My first dose was AstraZeneca and my second was Moderna as we were informed that 'mix dosing' was permitted, and as there were reports that the AstraZeneca was causing some side effects in a rare number of cases.  I have received two vaccinations.  My wife has received two doses of Moderna. 

 

Here is the problem.  According to Celebrity in Florida, I am not considered fully vaccinated and at this time, I am unable to obtain a second dose of Moderna as our health authority is not offering this as an option (I called today).  So, according to Celebrity's Healthy at Sea policy, I am required to carry out additional Covid testing and procedures while my wife is not. Can we not eat together? Can we not visit the spa (I am apparently not allowed as an unvaccinated traveller)?

 

It is absolutely amazing to me that during a GLOBAL pandemic when the world was producing various vaccines, distributing them to countries, etc., in an effort to slow the spread of Covid, that the USA is not able to recognize that other countries use other vaccines that WORK!   I also find it incredible that the USA has had one of the highest case counts of Covid, whereas in Canada - despite using AstraZeneca - our case counts and rates of infection are much lower...yet cruise lines such as Celebrity refuse to honour what other countries HAVE HAD TO DO with vaccines to slow the spread.  In my view, being unvaccinated means that a person has not had any Covid 19 vaccine!

 

The other puzzling thing is that cruise lines have varied their vaccination policy based on the destination, not the cruise line setting a universal policy that as long as a passenger is vaccinated according to their home country's health authority standards, as guided by the WHO, then that should suffice.

 

All cruise lines, including Celebrity, need to create a wider, blanket vaccination policy that would abide by WHO approved vaccines, regardless of the country where the travel is taking place.  Otherwise, world travel will cease!

[stefndoug]

my cousin (sailing Royal Caribbean next month), flew to Seattle and got a third dose so that he could travel next month on Royal.  He had a mixed dose like you and now he has 2 of the same one.  Not ideal, but he wanted to cruise, so he did what he had to so he could.

[Miaminice]

@mirkymirk
You are blaming Celebrity for something that isn`t their fault!
Celebrity merely follows CDC guidelines in the US.

 

Sailing from other destinations they follow the local guidelines - see Apex from Greece and Silhouette sailings from the UK. Mixed vaccination is accepted in both cases. I had a mix of AZ and BioNtech and will be sailing on Apex in 3 weeks.

 

Quote:
 

All sailings departing the U.S. are subject to guidance from the CDC. Currently, the CDC does not recognize any mixed combination of COVID-19 vaccines as fully vaccinated. For sailings departing the United States, to be recognized as fully vaccinated, guests 12 years of age and older, must complete a vaccine series with products from the same manufacturer, with the last dose administered at least 14 days prior to sailing. All sailings departing from St. Maarten will also follow this guidance.

 

For sailings departing from the UK, Greece or the Galapagos, we will follow the respective country guidance and allow for a mix of AstraZeneca, Pfizer and Moderna vaccines. Guests sailing on Celebrity Silhouette departing from Southampton, Celebrity Apex departing from Athens or Celebrity Flora, Xploration and Xpedition in the Galapagos may have mixed doses as follows:

 

• AstraZeneca, with the AstraZeneca dose being administered first, followed within 8–12 weeks by either the Pfizer or Moderna dose.
• One dose of Pfizer or Moderna followed at least four weeks later by a second dose of Pfizer or Moderna.  

Edited August 13, 2021 by Miaminice

[TaxiSquad]

As a fellow Canadian, we share your situation, as do 2.6 million others, who followed Government advice.  No doubt we went “off label” in order to more quickly vaccinate people.   Although, we now  have about 75% of eligible population fully vaxed (and that’s a good thing), neither WHO nor CDC recognize mixing.   As Miaminice noted, Celebrity is simply following their rules. 
 

We have some specific information as to your potential experience in getting to FL as well as your time on board, which may help you decide, as your final payment is coming due soon, I assume.  Things are changing rapidly, so the following may change over time.  
 

We were scheduled on The Edge, sailing Aug 14, but after much research and thinking, decided there were too many red flags/obstacles and cancelled last week and are getting full refund.  We spent hours with Celebrity and with our TA, who was very helpful.   
 

First of all, you need a PCR test before you get on your plane of course.   Depending on your flight dates/times, you may be able to use that test to present at boarding. That may be tricky unless you pay for super fast test, as otherwise results can be 24+ hours.  Good news is Celebrity uses “3 days” not 72 hours as limit, so a test taken on Wednesday is good thru Saturday.  IF you are outside 3 days you will need to get a test in FL, although I believe that can be an Antigen test which is cheaper and gives quicker result   Travelling from BC may present some challenges?  

 

As you will be considered unvaccinated, you will need to take a PCR test at the pier as well as another mid cruise and one at the end. Good news is the last one can be used for your trip home assuming you leave within 72 hours.  Current cost of all three tests is about $240 CAD, which you have to pay.   Your wife does not have to take the 1st 2 tests and gets the final test at no cost 

 

Once on board, you will need to wear a mask at all times except when eating, drinking or in pool and your cabin.   Situation is obviously very fluid and who knows what rules may be by Nov.    Currently, Celebrity is sailing with 95% plus vaxed, so you would be in obvious minority.   We were happy to go on fully vaxed ship, but oops, my wife is now considered unvaxed as she had Astra/Pfizer jabs.  

 

There will be designated areas on pool deck for unvaxed.  Also separate area for main dining room and specialty dining.  Not sure about buffet. Good news is your wife will be able to sit and eat with you in the “ unclean” area.  
 

You will not be allowed in Spa or Casino and gym will only be accessible in certain hours.   
 

In the final analysis, we decided this was not the cruise experience we wanted.  We have a cruise scheduled for late Nov and need to make decision soon.  Hopefully rules evolve and WHO/CDC recognizes mixed doses…..
 

 

 

[TaxiSquad]

As further note and part of our decision to cancel is what happens if one of you test Positive at either end of trip.     Can you get refund or FCC at front end of your trip?    Or if you test positive in FL or during cruise?    I believe Celebrity will coordinate you getting treated and will pay for trip home, but that MAY depend on whether you use Celebrity Air for your travel.   There is detail on that on their website and/or your TA could help track that down. 
 

For us, too much uncertainty given surge in cases.   Beyond that, officially, we’re still under travel advisory, right??   😜

[DirtyDawg]

@mirkymirk, the good news is your cruise is not until November. Things could change by then.

The CDC may update their mixed vaccine policy but they won't be doing that just because a few thousand foreigners (us) want to cruise. They work for the American taxpayer so the interests of U.S. citizens come first and the mixed vaccine issue is not high up on their priority list right now.  By October or November it might be higher up on the list. 

 

Edited August 13, 2021 by DirtyDawg

[TeeRick]

@mirkymirk There are several previous threads on this topic if you do a Cruise Critic search.  You can see what other Canadians have said about this.  And you will likely come to the same bottom line- with the mixed doses on Celebrity ships sailing out of the USA, they will not consider you vaccinated.  As unfair as that is.  Sorry.🙁

[sanger727]

9 hours ago, mirkymirk said:

 

It is absolutely amazing to me that during a GLOBAL pandemic when the world was producing various vaccines, distributing them to countries, etc., in an effort to slow the spread of Covid, that the USA is not able to recognize that other countries use other vaccines that WORK!   

 

 

The problem, and therefore reason for why the CDC won't recognize this; is that no one actually did a study testing the effectiveness of Astrazenica mixed with Pfizer or Moderna. So, does it work? Hard to say. Anecdotally maybe, but that's also part of why Astrazenica wasn't approved in the US at all. From what I read about their study it boiled down to "we made a mistake, but it worked really well during our mistake". Which isn't a good standard to use to grant emergency use to a vaccine. 

 

The US government had access to a good supply between Pfizer, Moderna, and Johnson; so you can't blame them for holding out a high standard and only authorizing those in the same doses/time lines that the manufacturer recommended. Big picture, pushing out vaccines, even in the less than recommended ways they were, was important to helping the world survive covid. The smaller picture was that it complicates international travel standards. This really doesn't boil down to the US should recognize off label vaccine treatments; it boils down to the fact that the cruise line is choosing to rely on US standards in applying vaccine standards when cruising out of the US. If they were to sail out of Canada, I wonder if they would defer to the Canadian standard?

[paulh84]

9 hours ago, mirkymirk said:

All cruise lines, including Celebrity, need to create a wider, blanket vaccination policy that would abide by WHO approved vaccines, regardless of the country where the travel is taking place.  Otherwise, world travel will cease!

 

I understand this throws your cruising plans into disarray but it is common practice for cruiselines to follow the rules and regulations of the ship's homeport country. Your other option is to cruise out of a port that has more workable guidelines fitting your circumstances. 

 

23 minutes ago, TaxiSquad said:

As further note and part of our decision to cancel is what happens if one of you test Positive at either end of trip.     Can you get refund or FCC at front end of your trip?    Or if you test positive in FL or during cruise?  

 

This is well outlined on Celebrity's website 

https://www.celebritycruises.com/health-and-safety

[DirtyDawg]

34 minutes ago, sanger727 said:

 

The problem, and therefore reason for why the CDC won't recognize this; is that no one actually did a study testing the effectiveness of Astrazenica mixed with Pfizer or Moderna. So, does it work? Hard to say. Anecdotally maybe, but that's also part of why Astrazenica wasn't approved in the US at all. From what I read about their study it boiled down to "we made a mistake, but it worked really well during our mistake". Which isn't a good standard to use to grant emergency use to a vaccine. 

 

The US government had access to a good supply between Pfizer, Moderna, and Johnson; so you can't blame them for holding out a high standard and only authorizing those in the same doses/time lines that the manufacturer recommended. Big picture, pushing out vaccines, even in the less than recommended ways they were, was important to helping the world survive Covid. The smaller picture was that it complicates international travel standards. This really doesn't boil down to the US should recognize off label vaccine treatments; it boils down to the fact that the cruise line is choosing to rely on US standards in applying vaccine standards when cruising out of the US. If they were to sail out of Canada, I wonder if they would defer to the Canadian standard?

My understanding was that the FDA/CDC (can't recall which actually does the approvals)  wanted more up to date data from AstraZeneca and that data has been provided.  Now it will consider AZ for emergency use but of course, with the three other vaccines in use in the U.S. there is not a rush on to do that. Assuming AZ gets approval then the FDA/CDC has to look at the data from the mixed vaccine studies, again that will take some time to complete (both the studies and the review). And the FDA/CDC won't rush their decisions just because a few thousand foreigners are being inconvenienced.  

 

Here in an interesting article about the situation with AZ. (I have no idea if its 100% correct or not) 

https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/revised-astrazeneca-data-show-its-covid-19-vaccine-76-percent-effective-180977356/

 

Edited August 13, 2021 by DirtyDawg

[TeeRick]

I cannot see any reason for the FDA to grant AZ an EUA in the USA at this point in time.

[Homosassa]

1 hour ago, TaxiSquad said:

 

 

 IF you are outside 3 days you will need to get a test in FL, although I believe that can be an Antigen test which is cheaper and gives quicker result   Travelling from BC may present some challenges?  

 

 

 

 

 

Just an FYI for anyone who plans to obtain a test in Florida: Demand for tests in Florida are at a level beyond anything experienced at any point in 2020.

 

While some locations are opening new test facilities, lines at these sites are long and the number of test available per day are limited.

 

Obtaining an appointment at other sites, such as drugstores, needs planning. 

 

It is not a case of pop in to the local store and have a test. An appointment may be needed and they are booked full. 

 

Anyone needing the test in Florida should try and make an appointment several weeks out from their arrival.

[Homosassa]

34 minutes ago, sanger727 said:

 

The problem, and therefore reason for why the CDC won't recognize this; is that no one actually did a study testing the effectiveness of Astrazenica mixed with Pfizer or Moderna. So, does it work? Hard to say. Anecdotally maybe, but that's also part of why Astrazenica wasn't approved in the US at all. From what I read about their study it boiled down to "we made a mistake, but it worked really well during our mistake". Which isn't a good standard to use to grant emergency use to a vaccine. 

 

 

Another problem in the approval was the manufacturing conditions in the facilities that make the vaccine. 

 

The sloppy combination of trying to combine data from the "whoops! we mad a mistake" trials and the problems in manufacturing is why AstraZeneca did not receive a EUA in the US.  The US does have manufacturers whose plants meet the standards for drug manufacturing in the US and also ran well controlled studies 

 

At this point, Astra Zeneca will need to meet the requirements for a BLA and will need well controlled data from any clinical trials for any use being requested for approval. It will also need to have an approved manufacturing facility.

 

Unless AstraZeneca is conducting the clinical trials for the use of its vaccine in combination with other vaccines (note that use with other vaccines will require a separate trial for each vaccine) and brings in such data for review and approval, the combination use of AstraZeneca with other vaccines will not receive approval in the USA.

 

By the way, the CDC is not the US agency that makes the approval decisions. It is the Food and Drug Administration that reviews and approves for use of vaccines in the USA. The CDC bases it policy on the FDA's decisions.

[Fouremco]

2 hours ago, TaxiSquad said:

 

First of all, you need a PCR test before you get on your plane of course.  

For the flight into the US, an antigen test will suffice.

 

OP, if you haven't already, I suggest that you head over to the Canadian Cruisers boards, where this issue of mixed vaccines has received a significant amount of discussion.

Edited August 13, 2021 by Fouremco

[AlbertaCruisers]

11 minutes ago, Fouremco said:

For the flight into the US, an antigen test will suffice.

 

OP, if you haven't already, I suggest that you head over to the Canadian Cruisers boards, where this issue of mixed vaccines has received a significant amount of discussion.

 

Correct for flight and the cruise if you are vaccinated. But if the Celebrity considers you unvaccinated, you have to come with a negative PCR test.

[bEwAbG]

10 hours ago, mirkymirk said:

The other puzzling thing is that cruise lines have varied their vaccination policy based on the destination, not the cruise line setting a universal policy that as long as a passenger is vaccinated according to their home country's health authority standards, as guided by the WHO, then that should suffice.

 

Every country in the world has its own entrance standards.  Cruise lines have to meet whatever standards the country they are going to has in place.  Just like airlines will not let you get on their plane unless you have the proper visa to enter a country that requires one.  The cruises have tried to negotiate some exceptions for their passengers but at the end of the day they're dealing with sovereign nations acting in the best interests of their own citizens. 

[Fouremco]

5 minutes ago, AlbertaCruisers said:

 

Correct for flight and the cruise if you are vaccinated. But if the Celebrity considers you unvaccinated, you have to come with a negative PCR test.

Yes, you are quite right, and for many the one PCR test for both purposes is a good idea, but I just wanted to make sure that people realize that for the flight alone, an antigen test will suffice. Someone we know, with mixed vaccines, was flying in to FLL a few days early, so took an antigen test for the flight then took a PCR test while there to satisfy the cruise requirement.

[jg51]

4 hours ago, TaxiSquad said:

As a fellow Canadian, we share your situation, as do 2.6 million others, who followed Government advice.  No doubt we went “off label” in order to more quickly vaccinate people.   Although, we now  have about 75% of eligible population fully vaxed (and that’s a good thing), neither WHO nor CDC recognize mixing.   As Miaminice noted, Celebrity is simply following their rules. 
 

We have some specific information as to your potential experience in getting to FL as well as your time on board, which may help you decide, as your final payment is coming due soon, I assume.  Things are changing rapidly, so the following may change over time.  
 

We were scheduled on The Edge, sailing Aug 14, but after much research and thinking, decided there were too many red flags/obstacles and cancelled last week and are getting full refund.  We spent hours with Celebrity and with our TA, who was very helpful.   
 

First of all, you need a PCR test before you get on your plane of course.   Depending on your flight dates/times, you may be able to use that test to present at boarding. That may be tricky unless you pay for super fast test, as otherwise results can be 24+ hours.  Good news is Celebrity uses “3 days” not 72 hours as limit, so a test taken on Wednesday is good thru Saturday.  IF you are outside 3 days you will need to get a test in FL, although I believe that can be an Antigen test which is cheaper and gives quicker result   Travelling from BC may present some challenges?  

 

As you will be considered unvaccinated, you will need to take a PCR test at the pier as well as another mid cruise and one at the end. Good news is the last one can be used for your trip home assuming you leave within 72 hours.  Current cost of all three tests is about $240 CAD, which you have to pay.   Your wife does not have to take the 1st 2 tests and gets the final test at no cost 

 

Once on board, you will need to wear a mask at all times except when eating, drinking or in pool and your cabin.   Situation is obviously very fluid and who knows what rules may be by Nov.    Currently, Celebrity is sailing with 95% plus vaxed, so you would be in obvious minority.   We were happy to go on fully vaxed ship, but oops, my wife is now considered unvaxed as she had Astra/Pfizer jabs.  

 

There will be designated areas on pool deck for unvaxed.  Also separate area for main dining room and specialty dining.  Not sure about buffet. Good news is your wife will be able to sit and eat with you in the “ unclean” area.  
 

You will not be allowed in Spa or Casino and gym will only be accessible in certain hours.   
 

In the final analysis, we decided this was not the cruise experience we wanted.  We have a cruise scheduled for late Nov and need to make decision soon.  Hopefully rules evolve and WHO/CDC recognizes mixed doses…..
 

 

 

 

4 hours ago, TaxiSquad said:

As further note and part of our decision to cancel is what happens if one of you test Positive at either end of trip.     Can you get refund or FCC at front end of your trip?    Or if you test positive in FL or during cruise?    I believe Celebrity will coordinate you getting treated and will pay for trip home, but that MAY depend on whether you use Celebrity Air for your travel.   There is detail on that on their website and/or your TA could help track that down. 
 

For us, too much uncertainty given surge in cases.   Beyond that, officially, we’re still under travel advisory, right??   😜

.

We want to commend you, "TaxiSquad," for taking so much time and trouble to inform "mirkymirk" of all the detailed factual information that you have gleaned -- and to share your wise advice on matters of opinion too.

 

Finally, as U.S. citizens, we were edified that you presented everything to "mirkymirk" without any kind of anti-U.S. comments -- even though you had to suffer through a considerable disappointment, canceling your August 14 voyage.

 

We look forward to reading future messages that you will be posting here.  (We noticed that you are a "newbie.")

.

12 hours ago, stefndoug said:

my cousin (sailing Royal Caribbean next month), flew to Seattle and got a third dose so that he could travel next month on Royal.  He had a mixed dose like you and now he has 2 of the same one.  Not ideal, but he wanted to cruise, so he did what he had to so he could.

.

You have a very wise cousin, "stefndoug"! 

Perhaps "mirkymirk" could follow his example?

.

Edited August 13, 2021 by jg51

[NantahalaCruiser]

While I am slightly sympathetic to the OP's concerns, I note the following:

 

OP is either still before FP or certainly knew the concerns prior to paying the FP and could have or still can cancel

 

OP wishes to sail out of US, but complains about US regulations - while his home country is still not allowing US citizens to sail into his own country's ports

[TeaBag]

I feel very sorry for you mirkymirk having to make this decision when you followed the rules as they were presented to you.  Looking forward to a cruise should be a delight.

I was also going to suggest you look at the Canadian Cruiser forum as there is lots of advice there.  However, it all comes down to the unknown....like someone said, what if you test positive on board?

I would cancel.  If you had to eat separately from your wife and not be able to join in activities on board, I don't know how you could enjoy the cruise.  I guess you could use room service for meals.

We have made the decision not to cruise till July as DH is immuno compromised.  We are also looking at flying to Bellingham to get a third shot but it seems a bit iffy at the moment.

I hope you solve this to your satisfaction.

[nocl]

5 hours ago, DirtyDawg said:

@mirkymirk, the good news is your cruise is not until November. Things could change by then.

The CDC may update their mixed vaccine policy but they won't be doing that just because a few thousand foreigners (us) want to cruise. They work for the American taxpayer so the interests of U.S. citizens come first and the mixed vaccine issue is not high up on their priority list right now.  By October or November it might be higher up on the list. 

 

The CDC will only update their policy, if and only if either the FDA or WHO add those combinations to their authorized list.  That would take registration grade studies and submission for approval to the regulatory authorities. That means someone has to be interested enough to fund and run such a high quality study.

 

Pfizer is running a combination study for their vaccine as the second shot in combination with AZ or Moderna.  Do not know when that study ends.

 

Health Canada is running a study on the combinations that they authorized in Canada.  That study is not scheduled to end until 2023.

 

There are also studies looking at boosters after initial treatment with another product (Pfizer booster after complete vaccination with Moderna for example), Though those may not impact the acceptance of combinations.

[Cg52]

7 hours ago, sanger727 said:

 

The problem, and therefore reason for why the CDC won't recognize this; is that no one actually did a study testing the effectiveness of Astrazenica mixed with Pfizer or Moderna. So, does it work? Hard to say. Anecdotally maybe, but that's also part of why Astrazenica wasn't approved in the US at all. From what I read about their study it boiled down to "we made a mistake, but it worked really well during our mistake". Which isn't a good standard to use to grant emergency use to a vaccine. 

 

The US government had access to a good supply between Pfizer, Moderna, and Johnson; so you can't blame them for holding out a high standard and only authorizing those in the same doses/time lines that the manufacturer recommended. Big picture, pushing out vaccines, even in the less than recommended ways they were, was important to helping the world survive covid. The smaller picture was that it complicates international travel standards. This really doesn't boil down to the US should recognize off label vaccine treatments; it boils down to the fact that the cruise line is choosing to rely on US standards in applying vaccine standards when cruising out of the US. If they were to sail out of Canada, I wonder if they would defer to the Canadian standard?

Does Celebrity accept cruisers with two doses of AstraZeneca as is the case for many UK travellers?

[truckswain]

We are from Canada have a mixed does vaccine AZ/Moderna and are booked on the Apex in November and we have made final payment.  I fully understand Celebrity's policy on vaccine status for cruises out of the US.  Many things can change between now and November.

 

The problem with recognizing vaccinated status lies clearly at the feet of the CDC.  They have no need to entertain any other vaccines or combination of vaccines as the US is flush with domestically produced vaccines.  Unfortunately, this means very little as the US continues to surge in cases.  

 

I find it ironic that in Canada, with what the CDC claims is unapproved and untested vaccine mixing,  is lowering  case counts, hospitalizations and deaths.  What more proof is needed than that?  

 

The land border between Canada and US remains closed by the US (not Canada) and there is mounting pressure daily from US border politicians to get the border open.  The US will need to accept our Canadian vaccine status to let this happen.  It is only a matter of time before the CDC is called out for their ridiculous stance on what they accept as fully vaccinated and forced to fall in line. 

[Miaminice]

7 hours ago, sanger727 said:

 

The problem, and therefore reason for why the CDC won't recognize this; is that no one actually did a study testing the effectiveness of Astrazenica mixed with Pfizer or Moderna. So, does it work? Hard to say.

Wrong! There are studies in all the countries where mixed vaccination happened. Does it work? Not hard to say… Results are clear - efficacy is at least the same as 2 x mRNA possibly even better. 

[Miaminice]

37 minutes ago, Cg52 said:

Does Celebrity accept cruisers with two doses of AstraZeneca as is the case for many UK travellers?

Yes!