After Reading Numerous Posts over the last Several Weeks, These are my thoughts

[kazu]

14 minutes ago, ldtr said:

The economics are what they are.  HAL passengers want relatively low prices and relatively smaller ship sizes.  If prices did not matter they would all be on Premium lines such as Azamara, Oceania, Viking, etc with their smaller ships. 

 

HAL had a smaller ship (Prinsendam) which commanded much higher prices than the rest of the HAL fleet and sailed full most times with fabulous itineraries.  When HAL sold her, I think the writing was on the wall, sadly.  They weren’t willing to invest the money in her.  Phoenix was.

 

 

14 minutes ago, ldtr said:

It is pretty clear where HAL is focusing itself.  Smaller average ship size compared to its competition (adult focused mass market), competitive pricing. with unique longer cruise offerings.  One either likes it and cruises with them or they do not and cruises with someone else.

 

I think you have hit the nail on the head.  With the larger ships, I have to say that the cruise offerings on longer cruises are not as unique as they were with the smaller ones, but some nice ones can still be found.

[Mary229]

28 minutes ago, ldtr said:

The economics are what they are.  HAL passengers want relatively low prices and relatively smaller ship sizes.  If prices did not matter they would all be on Premium lines such as Azamara, Oceania, Viking, etc with their smaller ships.

Well there is another category of HAL cruiser that only does extensive itineraries, doesn’t want a formal experience and wants a smaller ship.  I have considered all of the premium lines except Viking and they just don’t have the itinerary I want.   Some of us are travelers  and don’t identify ourselves as cruisers.  We simply use the most comfortable (personal criteria) method to go where we want to go.   The Explora Hank mentioned sounds interesting.
 

We traveled independently for decades with the occasional cruise.  Aging issues have made cruising much more attractive.

 

Money is not our motivating or limiting factor

Edited May 23, 2023 by Mary229

[Guest ldtr]

1 hour ago, Mary229 said:

Well there is another category of HAL cruiser that only does extensive itineraries, doesn’t want a formal experience and wants a smaller ship.  I have considered all of the premium lines except Viking and they just don’t have the itinerary I want.   Some of us are travelers  and don’t identify ourselves as cruisers.  We simply use the most comfortable (personal criteria) method to go where we want to go.   The Explora Hank mentioned sounds interesting.
 

We traveled independently for decades with the occasional cruise.  Aging issues have made cruising much more attractive.

 

Money is not our motivating or limiting factor

From what I have seen Explora is in the Seabourn and Regent Seven Seas price range with prices starting around $800 per person per day on the cruises I have looked at, all suites, all inclusive.  Quite a different price point and model than HAL.  Would not expect many to move from HAL to Explora.    More like Ritz Carleton Yachts.

[Mary229]

5 minutes ago, ldtr said:

From what I have seen Explora is in the Seabourn and Regent Seven Seas price range with prices starting around $800 per person per day on the cruises I have looked at, all suites, all inclusive.  Quite a different price point and model than HAL.  Would not expect many to move from HAL to Explora.    More like Ritz Carleton Yachts.

It depends on the itineraries.   They may be able to offer itineraries HAL doesn’t and ones we want.  

[OlsSalt]

Wonder if the old "Maasdam EXC In-Depth" cruises, before she was sold, were money-makers or money losers. Or were just the last chance for the lucky HAL Captains to act out their own cruise route fantasies, with so many of the out of way ports.

 

Certainly the ones we took were highlights of our entire time on HAL ships.  

1. FLL to Papeete via Panama Canal, Easter Island, remote Polynesia;

2. SF to Tokyo via Alaska, Russia Far East and two weeks around Japan.

[BermudaBound2014]

2 minutes ago, OlsSalt said:

Wonder if the old "Maasdam EXC In-Depth" cruises, before she was sold, were money-makers or money losers.

 

If they were money makers they would still be sailing.

[cruisemom42]

5 hours ago, Destiny0315 said:

There isn't a question asked in the OP entire post. It was as she said her personal thoughts which were based widely on many recent posts on CC. Nothing wrong with that but she clearly cast a pall over HAL and its fleet in general which may or may not be true based on ones personal thoughts and experiences.

 

IMO it was intended to spark a discussion/debate. Don't forget, most debates start with a statement or an opinion which can be supported or rebutted...

 

The OP is a longtime cruiser and while I don't always agree with her views, she is also well placed to know a fair amount about the industry in general. Likewise some of the other posters who've noticed issues -- I put more credence in those who've sailed a number of lines post-Covid than those who've only sailed HAL.

 

Some enjoy having a favorite line and are willing to overlook things that those with no particular loyalties, and that's just fine. But I think it would be hard to deny that HAL has not had an easy ride of it in the last 10-15 years; the statements made earlier this year about the focus on itineraries, while not earth-shattering, are the closest thing to a declaration of a new focus, and one that I applaud. My question is whether it may be a bit late in the game....

 

For those who've said all is well on the Zaandam, great. Just keep in mind HAL only has two ships of that size left in the fleet, and they are 23 and 24 years old, respectively. Experts on this board in the past have stated that once a ship is past 25 years of age (I believe that is the correct number), there is additional required maintenance and more frequent hull checks ($$$$) to ensure seaworthiness, one reason why older ships are often shed from fleets when approaching that age.

 

I've sailed many lines over a good many cruising years. At the moment I have no real favorite line and have not since Voyages to Antiquity leased their single ship to the Road Scholar operation. As I said previously, I cruise for itinerary but even with that said I would not sail HAL again absent some improvement in what is offered onboard -- or some unimaginably wonderful itinerary, which doesn't seem imminent given current uninspired offerings.

 

My next two cruises will be on Azamara and Oceania; I will be interested to see how they compare overall with my most recent Westerdam cruise. The Azamara cruise is about the same per diem. The Oceania is a bit more.

 

Edited May 24, 2023 by cruisemom42

[Destiny0315]

Being a long time cruiser of multiple lines means that someone has had the time and the means to do so. So at one time many of those people were happy with what HAL was doing and now many of those same people are not, like yourself. So at least you are straight forward and say that you won't cruise with them again unless things change, but some come on here to actively disparage the line yet still continue to book cruises with them. Just like I have been told that I can pass by and ignore threads like that, why cant those people just pass by HAL and stop cruising and posting about them especially if they have the time and means. It's like standing in a Walmart and telling people why they shouldn't shop there anymore because they aren't like they use to be and Target etc...is better.

As for the Zaandam and Volendam they are two of quite a few ships that CCL will have to retire from their multiple lines within the next few years. I said in my posts that all was well for the most part on the Zaandam in the accommodation side of things and that the ship was visibly being maintained. But that doesn't mean that there are not issues with some physical items within the ship. I saw a first hand example late last week of that when a door to the promenade deck fell off it hinges to the floor right in the atrium area!

Finally as I stated in an earlier post Azamara came up in conversation at a couple of different dinner tables last week as the current line of choice of some very experienced travelers who were on the cruise.

[OlsSalt]

2 hours ago, BermudaBound2014 said:

 

If they were money makers they would still be sailing.

 

So the Amsterdam World Cruises were money losers too, for that size ship? And the Prinsendam even at her higher fares? Wish we had facts, not just speculation. Maybe there was not a market for full enrichment cruises with exotic itineraries after their short run and awkward roll-out.

 

Or the old Maasdam was slated for departure regardless. Whatever, they were grand, grand cruise packages for those who sought them out.

[mcrcruiser]

We now sail for  enjoyment & no flying   because we are in our 80s . HAL sails from our home port of San Diego ;which is 28 miles door to  door for us . We love Celebrity but ,we will not go to even San Pedro World Cruise center in the Los Angeles  area because parking is a mess . so we now over look  things  like   very  few shows  & we book early  dining table doe 2 to avoid long lines .what I ahve learned is to ask for things  not on the menu  for dinner like onion soup ie .so we have found a home at sea line . It works for us now . We have a 19 night ,a 14 night & soon to book a 35 night cruises all on Koningsdam   

[ExpatBride]

9 hours ago, ldtr said:

 

HAL passengers want relatively low prices and relatively smaller ship sizes.  If prices did not matter they would all be on Premium lines such as Azamara, Oceania, Viking, etc with their smaller ships.  

That's not strictly true. We're a couple who can afford whatever we want within reason. Premium lines are "within reason" for us, but we're not interested.

We're in our 40s, which makes us younger than HAL's core demographic, but we prefer smaller ships and a quiet onboard experience, so HAL is a good fit there. My SO is Danish and Danes tend to be pretty informal and laid back, so a true luxury experience would not be relaxing for him – HAL is almost just right. When we cruise, the ship is our destination. We rarely get off in port. We like that we can drive over the bridge to Copenhagen, board a HAL ship and spend the next days looking at gorgeous Norwegian scenery, so "interesting itineraries" and enrichment programs don't appeal to us. We live in Europe, so if we want to see museums and cathedrals, it's easy enough to book a city break.

So, no. We would not "all" be on premium lines if money were no object.

Edited May 24, 2023 by ExpatBride

[Mary229]

8 hours ago, OlsSalt said:

Wonder if the old "Maasdam EXC In-Depth" cruises, before she was sold, were money-makers or money losers. Or were just the last chance for the lucky HAL Captains to act out their own cruise route fantasies, with so many of the out of way ports.

 

Certainly the ones we took were highlights of our entire time on HAL ships.  

1. FLL to Papeete via Panama Canal, Easter Island, remote Polynesia;

2. SF to Tokyo via Alaska, Russia Far East and two weeks around Japan.

I think the ultimates are the new concept and like the grands they are more expensive per day.  

[kazu]

6 hours ago, OlsSalt said:

 

So the Amsterdam World Cruises were money losers too, for that size ship? And the Prinsendam even at her higher fares? Wish we had facts, not just speculation.

 

Fact: The Prinsendam was the most profitable ship in the fleet on a per passenger basis.  Stated several times by the Captain proudly on board in our conversations.   The problem I am guessing was twofold:  the Prinsendam was the smallest ship in the fleet so although the most profitable - her passenger capacity was small so did not deliver the same total profit as some of the other ships in the fleet and she was requiring major maintenance as she was at that magic age.

 

 

[HappyInVan]

13 hours ago, Destiny0315 said:

So at least you are straight forward and say that you won't cruise with them again unless things change, but some come on here to actively disparage the line yet still continue to book cruises with them. Just like I have been told that I can pass by and ignore threads like that, why cant those people just pass by HAL and stop cruising and posting about them especially if they have the time and means...

 

Actually, during biz school, I attended a class on quality management. A lesson that stuck with me was the admonition that customers have the duty to complain. Management can only fix something when they know about it.

 

That's why HAL religiously sends out a survey after each cruise. What's your rating (from 1 to 10) on food, service, facilities etc? They don't want to reach the stage where they desperately troubleshoot as bookings evaporate.

 

On this forum, I browse to identify problems and their solutions. Being forewarned is the basis for intelligent decisions. Naturally, there are many discussions in which I have no interest. Being a mature adult, I avoid these discussions. Will not launch personal attacks on the opinionated.

 

I hope that nobody takes offence at my advise. I'm trying to help.

 

Edited May 24, 2023 by HappyInVan

[OlsSalt]

54 minutes ago, HappyInVan said:

 

Actually, during biz school, I attended a class on quality management. A lesson that stuck with me was the admonition that customers have the duty to complain. Management can only fix something when they know about it.

 

That's why HAL religiously sends out a survey after each cruise. What's your rating (from 1 to 10) on food, service, facilities etc? They don't want to reach the stage where they desperately troubleshoot as bookings evaporate.

 

On this forum, I browse to identify problems and their solutions. Being forewarned is the basis for intelligent decisions. Naturally, there are many discussions in which I have no interest. Being a mature adult, I avoid these discussions. Will not launch personal attacks on the opinionated.

 

I hope that nobody takes offence at my advise. I'm trying to help.

 

 

Where does the line get drawn between duty to complain to management (agree), and demanding others boycott the entire product because of your own personal negative experience?

[3rdGenCunarder]

51 minutes ago, HappyInVan said:

 

Actually, during biz school, I attended a class on quality management. A lesson that stuck with me was the admonition that customers have the duty to complain. Management can only fix something when they know about it.

 

That's why HAL religiously sends out a survey after each cruise. What's your rating (from 1 to 10) on food, service, facilities etc? They don't want to reach the stage where they desperately troubleshoot as bookings evaporate.

 

On this forum, I browse to identify problems and their solutions. Being forewarned is the basis for intelligent decisions. Naturally, there are many discussions in which I have no interest. Being a mature adult, I avoid these discussions. Will not launch personal attacks on the opinionated.

 

I hope that nobody takes offence at my advise. I'm trying to help.

 

 

I wonder if people are aware of and using the "let us know" function on Navigator. I think HAL used to have cards to fill out in the days before the app. While people may have a duty to complain, not all recipients feel that way, unfortunately. I think people should make a point of giving positive feedback, too. On my last cruise, I saw a supervisor in the hallway and was pleased to have a chance to tell him what a good job my steward did, despite the fact that the workload appeared to have increased since my previous (pre-Covid) cruise. 

 

I always fill out the post-cruise questionnaire, with both the good and the not so good.

[BermudaBound2014]

8 minutes ago, OlsSalt said:

 

Where does the line get drawn between duty to complain to management (agree), and demanding others boycott the entire product because of your own personal negative experience?

 

Where has anyone demanded that others boycott the entire product? 

[aliaschief]

5 minutes ago, 3rdGenCunarder said:

 

I wonder if people are aware of and using the "let us know" function on Navigator. I think HAL used to have cards to fill out in the days before the app. While people may have a duty to complain, not all recipients feel that way, unfortunately. I think people should make a point of giving positive feedback, too. On my last cruise, I saw a supervisor in the hallway and was pleased to have a chance to tell him what a good job my steward did, despite the fact that the workload appeared to have increased since my previous (pre-Covid) cruise. 

 

I always fill out the post-cruise questionnaire, with both the good and the not so good.

Use it all the time, mainly for positive comments and in many cases have received call back in cabin thanking us for our comments. They post the comments somewhere where crew can see them and we often get thank you’s for our comments.

[Ipeeinthepools]

After all of this dialogue, tell me again what is the major issue that people are complaining about?  

[OlsSalt]

11 minutes ago, BermudaBound2014 said:

 

Where has anyone demanded that others boycott the entire product? 

 

It is a continuum. Where does the line get drawn. No complaints to boycott demands.

[Destiny0315]

6 minutes ago, Ipeeinthepools said:

After all of this dialogue, tell me again what is the major issue that people are complaining about?  

🤔Each other!

[cruisemom42]

14 minutes ago, BermudaBound2014 said:

 

Where has anyone demanded that others boycott the entire product? 

 

Hyperbole. 😒

 

[cgolf1]

1 hour ago, HappyInVan said:

 

Actually, during biz school, I attended a class on quality management. A lesson that stuck with me was the admonition that customers have the duty to complain. Management can only fix something when they know about it.

 

That's why HAL religiously sends out a survey after each cruise. What's your rating (from 1 to 10) on food, service, facilities etc? They don't want to reach the stage where they desperately troubleshoot as bookings evaporate.

 

On this forum, I browse to identify problems and their solutions. Being forewarned is the basis for intelligent decisions. Naturally, there are many discussions in which I have no interest. Being a mature adult, I avoid these discussions. Will not launch personal attacks on the opinionated.

 

I hope that nobody takes offence at my advise. I'm trying to help.

 

 

That was why in my post trip survey, I offered suggestions to fix some of the issues that we encountered. Sometimes a complaint can be useless information unless everyone is complaining about it. Adding a potential solution along with the issue can be a big help and will likely add weight to any complaint. 

[Destiny0315]

25 minutes ago, 3rdGenCunarder said:

I think HAL used to have cards to fill out in the days before the app. While people may have a duty to complain, not all recipients feel that way, unfortunately.

The Zaandam had a large square box sitting at the end of the Guest Relations counter with a large photo of the Hotel Director on it. There were old school paper forms to fill out and deposit in the box for whatever you wanted to crow or squawk about that was happening on the ship. At least a couple of people I knew on the ship filled them out daily, and sometimes more than once a day. One of them later received a personal response to a question by the CD Daniel Edward. So not only is the little Z the oldest ship left in the fleet it's staff is still hanging on to some of those old school ideas that made HAL what it was a couple of decades past. 

[OlsSalt]

2 minutes ago, cgolf1 said:

 

That was why in my post trip survey, I offered suggestions to fix some of the issues that we encountered. Sometimes a complaint can be useless information unless everyone is complaining about it. Adding a potential solution along with the issue can be a big help and will likely add weight to any complaint. 

 

Rule of thumb in our community of about 90,000. If the city council gets five letters on a topic, independently, they take notice.