Is anyone at Celebrity, Listening?

[TeeRick]

On 6/8/2023 at 10:34 PM, phoenix_dream said:

I don’t need to check those prices as I travel regularly and just booked three land trips with more on the agenda. I have seen some obscene hotel prices as well, but have been able to adjust my destinations and dates to those that are more reasonable. I also avoid the prime destinations you reference as they are indeed jammed and expensive. Luckily I’ve seen most of the US already so am happy to visit less crowded places that still offer some nice botanical gardens, arboretums, good restaurants, etc..  Not as much fun as a cruise but still very enjoyable and affordable.

As I've said in other posts, we definitely do land vacations and multi-week vacation home rentals at a less expensive price than the two of us (usually in a suite) on Celebrity.  I learned this during the pandemic cruise outage.  We still cruise but it is no longer our only vacation choice.  For many years we only cruised.  We have opened our eyes to non-cruise vacations, and also to other cruise lines not named Celebrity.  We now understand that the expensive Celebrity cruises (with lesser quality now) are in competition with all sorts of vacations.  We are so much the better now for this!

[montythecat]

It is inevitable after COVID that every cruise line would be facing a

tricky financial future. Nevertheless, Celebrity decided to press

ahead with building more Edge Class ships. Personally, I would have

preferred X to have built one or two less Edge Class ships and

spent the money on revolutionising the whole fleet and keeping up

standards in the restaurants. I am assuming that the new build 

contracts could have been renegotiated. Maybe keeping up

standards would have been a better way forward, Just a thought !

[d9704011]

1 minute ago, montythecat said:

I am assuming that the new build 

contracts could have been renegotiated.

Maybe.  I suspect the shipyard(s) wojld like more than the original contract.

[Ex-Airbalancer]

41 minutes ago, montythecat said:

It is inevitable after COVID that every cruise line would be facing a

tricky financial future. Nevertheless, Celebrity decided to press

ahead with building more Edge Class ships. Personally, I would have

preferred X to have built one or two less Edge Class ships and

spent the money on revolutionising the whole fleet and keeping up

standards in the restaurants. I am assuming that the new build 

contracts could have been renegotiated. Maybe keeping up

standards would have been a better way forward, Just a thought !

I believe the EU gave the shipyards a pot of money as part of the 2 billion € covid recovery to keep people employed, so maybe Celebrity got a break on the price of the new ships 🤔

 

[Cruising is my passion]

45 minutes ago, montythecat said:

It is inevitable after COVID that every cruise line would be facing a

tricky financial future. Nevertheless, Celebrity decided to press

ahead with building more Edge Class ships. Personally, I would have

preferred X to have built one or two less Edge Class ships and

spent the money on revolutionising the whole fleet and keeping up

standards in the restaurants. I am assuming that the new build 

contracts could have been renegotiated. Maybe keeping up

standards would have been a better way forward, Just a thought !

Excellent point!  I agree.

[RichYak]

1 hour ago, montythecat said:

It is inevitable after COVID that every cruise line would be facing a

tricky financial future. Nevertheless, Celebrity decided to press

ahead with building more Edge Class ships. Personally, I would have

preferred X to have built one or two less Edge Class ships and

spent the money on revolutionising the whole fleet and keeping up

standards in the restaurants. I am assuming that the new build 

contracts could have been renegotiated. Maybe keeping up

standards would have been a better way forward, Just a thought !

From Celebrity's point of view, new builds result in new revenue sources whereas revolutionizing the remainder of the fleet does not.

[Guest ldtr]

1 hour ago, montythecat said:

It is inevitable after COVID that every cruise line would be facing a

tricky financial future. Nevertheless, Celebrity decided to press

ahead with building more Edge Class ships. Personally, I would have

preferred X to have built one or two less Edge Class ships and

spent the money on revolutionising the whole fleet and keeping up

standards in the restaurants. I am assuming that the new build 

contracts could have been renegotiated. Maybe keeping up

standards would have been a better way forward, Just a thought !

They were already committed to those builds, same as ccl with theirs. Most funded by the countries in which they were being built meaning that the loans had very low interest rates and long payment terms. Would have cost them more to cancel. Especially since other existing ships will age out before they start more.

[markeb]

2 hours ago, montythecat said:

It is inevitable after COVID that every cruise line would be facing a

tricky financial future. Nevertheless, Celebrity decided to press

ahead with building more Edge Class ships. Personally, I would have

preferred X to have built one or two less Edge Class ships and

spent the money on revolutionising the whole fleet and keeping up

standards in the restaurants. I am assuming that the new build 

contracts could have been renegotiated. Maybe keeping up

standards would have been a better way forward, Just a thought !

 

These really aren't even comparable. Ship builds are capitalized and go straight onto the balance sheet and don't impact their income statement. They probably can capitalize revolutionizing existing ships as well. I mean it's money and cash flow either way, but it's not going to be an operational expense.

 

"Keeping up standards" in the restaurants would be a pure operational expense. Different accounting completely and other than their needs for cash, wouldn't even compete with each other. Agree they need to do it, but it's not an either or financially.

 

And I'm pretty sure there are other advantages to the Edge Class ships over upgrading the older ships. More capacity, more efficient, and likely as not the same expense or less for actual crew (not hotel staff).

[montythecat]

 

Thank you to those who have responded to my perhaps naive solution 

as to “what X should have done”. It seemed logical to me but, as you 

can see, I am no accountant or economist and I appreciate comments 

which throw a more educated light onto this subject. I found the 

influence of EU grants or subsidies particularly interesting.

 

 

 

 

[NMTraveller]

I would have preferred X forgo the last ship and not cut the dining...

If they were in a precarious financial position why build the last ship?

Edited June 11, 2023 by NMTraveller

[ChucktownSteve]

On 6/5/2023 at 1:40 PM, bigbenboys said:

I was involved in a lean process. We documented the process in detail. Then the work was moved to Mexico. Then after a few years moved to China. If employees could not find different jobs at that location they were assigned jobs 40 miles away.

 

I'm curious. How do you assign a ship's crew member to a job 40 miles away? 😄

[Guest ldtr]

45 minutes ago, NMTraveller said:

I would have preferred X forgo the last ship and not cut the dining...

If they were in a precarious financial position why build the last ship?

1. because they were already committed.

2. It had little current cost with favorable financing terms and long payback terms

3. As soon as it is completed it adds to revenue, helping to improve their financial situation

4. Other ships will age out over the next few years and they need the capacity

5. While their financial situation will limit future capital investment for the next few years they are demonstrating their ability to handle it. RCL as well as CCL demonstrated being cash flow positive with operations last quarter and should be over all cash flow positive this quarter. They will still report an overall loss but mostly due to depreciation.

[ChucktownSteve]

On 6/5/2023 at 8:04 PM, xamsx said:

We have moved on. Of the six cruises we currently have booked, one is is with Celebrity, and that one is only because my mother insisted (the rest are just Hubby and me). We are only elite status, so we aren't leaving behind tremendous perks or anything.

Raise the prices and provide less product? See ya!

 

I understand exactly.  I am Elite+; no biggie.  During the pandemic I found three Regent cruises that were priced lower than Celebrity for the identical size suite pp pn.  That wound up being an elevation for a better price.  Celebrity was raising prices to gobble up all the FCCs they issued.  Hotel, air, excursions and much more were included in Regent.   Now their pricing has caught up so not as attractive since their ships are much smaller and demand picked up..

 

I sailed, Apex 2/2022, Reflections 12/2022; Regent 5/2022, 9/2022, 1/2023, and have two Azamara upper level cabins on the books.

I'm not ruling out future Celebrity cruises, but what I experienced on their cruises were a lessening of product. So until they stop calling themselves a luxury cruise without putting their money where their mouth is, I don't believe them.  I'm also now considering Oceania again as an elevation for Celebrity.

 

I do miss what the Celebrity product was under Chandris and the five year contract stipulations once RCG took over.  I realize it will never go back to the good old days, but now there are other competing considerations.

I also realize there are others to take my place since people are moving up from the lower rated lines for the same reason I moved up from Celebrity.  It's bottom line for them. As long as people will fill their cabins, the customer doesn't matter who they are.

 

They look out for themselves. I look out for myself. That's basic economics.

Edited June 11, 2023 by ChucktownSteve

[crusinthrough]

When I read about CEOs taking pay or bonus cuts then I'll believe it's about getting out of the pandemic hole.  Prices have significantly increased and food quality significantly declined.  Unfortunately, there isn't much value in cruising anymore especially for those who have been to  ports multiple times and cruise for the enjoyment.  Some of the non refurbished ships are in a desperate need of "modern luxury" upgrades or a lower price tag so that expectations matches the actual experience.  

 

Suite pricing is insane and the non refundable 10% deposit makes them harder to justify.  I'm glad I took advantage of causing when it restarted and ships were empty because of the vaccine mandates and fear of getting back on a ship. These will forever be some of my best cruises.  

 

I stayed with Celebrity and booked a few cruises during the pandemic and restart.   Most have the old packages (Elevate or Indulge) and pricing.  These may be my last cruises, which is disappointing because I really like cruising but pricing is not matching the service.  Hopefully, I'll see deals like the Beyond April cruise. 

 

Where is the logic for this type of pricing on a mainstream cruise line? A 9N Caribbean sailing on the Beyond in November.  

[calicakes]

On 6/5/2023 at 6:56 AM, markeb said:

 

I'm going to assume you're not joking. The concept is so pervasive in business and government today that you just assume everyone knows what it is...

 

Black Belt is the highest level of certification. 

 

Wikipedia short read: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lean_Six_Sigma#:~:text=Lean Six Sigma is a,value creation in business processes.

I haven't heard of this either.  I am a "mystery shopper", evaluating business( restaurants, other service establishments) and then reporting back.  There is a large mystery shopping company that has many, many high end restaurants and hotels.  They also had "cruises".  I haven't seen a cruise available to mystery shop since cruising restarted.  

[bigbenboys]

1 hour ago, ChucktownSteve said:

 

I'm curious. How do you assign a ship's crew member to a job 40 miles away? 😄

My involvement with lean was in the aircraft industry. 

[Guest ldtr]

9 hours ago, TeeRick said:

As I've said in other posts, we definitely do land vacations and multi-week vacation home rentals at a less expensive price than the two of us (usually in a suite) on Celebrity.  I learned this during the pandemic cruise outage.  We still cruise but it is no longer our only vacation choice.  For many years we only cruised.  We have opened our eyes to non-cruise vacations, and also to other cruise lines not named Celebrity.  We now understand that the expensive Celebrity cruises (with lesser quality now) are in competition with all sorts of vacations.  We are so much the better now for this!

While one can certainly save some money by doing home rentals I refuse to do such. I have seen too much damage done to communities in tourist areas by people buying up properties and turning them into vacation rentals. Pretty much driving locals out of the local housing market and in many ways negatively impacts services in those areas doe to the impact on employees.

 

Many areas have been very negatively impacted by such conversions.

[Guest ldtr]

4 hours ago, crusinthrough said:

When I read about CEOs taking pay or bonus cuts then I'll believe it's about getting out of the pandemic hole.  Prices have significantly increased and food quality significantly declined.  Unfortunately, there isn't much value in cruising anymore especially for those who have been to  ports multiple times and cruise for the enjoyment.  Some of the non refurbished ships are in a desperate need of "modern luxury" upgrades or a lower price tag so that expectations matches the actual experience.  

 

Suite pricing is insane and the non refundable 10% deposit makes them harder to justify.  I'm glad I took advantage of causing when it restarted and ships were empty because of the vaccine mandates and fear of getting back on a ship. These will forever be some of my best cruises.  

 

I stayed with Celebrity and booked a few cruises during the pandemic and restart.   Most have the old packages (Elevate or Indulge) and pricing.  These may be my last cruises, which is disappointing because I really like cruising but pricing is not matching the service.  Hopefully, I'll see deals like the Beyond April cruise. 

 

Where is the logic for this type of pricing on a mainstream cruise line? A 9N Caribbean sailing on the Beyond in November.  

Let's see Fain retired, Frank Del Rio retired,  Donald retired. Looks to ma that the major CEOs of each company during the pandemic have all stepped aside.

[DingoMom]

On 6/9/2023 at 5:34 AM, NutsAboutGolf said:

Rentals usually have full kitchens so if one wishes can save money cooking their food and can hit up a liquor store

I like this thread; lots of good thoughts and alternatives presented! But I must reply to @NutsAboutGolf’s thought above. Remember during the ‘good ole days [CoVid]’ when we could wander into a liquor store, or even a bank, with a mask on, and no one batted an eye? 😷

Edited June 12, 2023 by DingoMom
Punctuation

[crusinthrough]

2 hours ago, ldtr said:

Let's see Fain retired, Frank Del Rio retired,  Donald retired. Looks to ma that the major CEOs of each company during the pandemic have all stepped aside.

There has been change in leadership for sure but I have not heard about a change in base salary and commission due to the being in financial hardship.  The only people who is paying the price is the consumer.  

[ChucktownSteve]

4 hours ago, crusinthrough said:

There has been change in leadership for sure but I have not heard about a change in base salary and commission due to the being in financial hardship.  The only people who is paying the price is the consumer.  

 

It's always that way.  When the consumer demand drops, you'll see the price follow.  Too many people still willing to pay the price because they don't know what Celebrity was.  I see the analogy of placing the frog in a pot of water and gradually turning up the heat.  The consumer is slowly getting boiled alive.

[C4HCG]

5 minutes ago, ChucktownSteve said:

 

It's always that way.  When the consumer demand drops, you'll see the price follow.  Too many people still willing to pay the price because they don't know what Celebrity was.  I see the analogy of placing the frog in a pot of water and gradually turning up the heat.  The consumer is slowly getting boiled alive.

A lot of people who post here are still willing to pay the price and they know full well what Celebrity was. You clearly have done with Celebrity which is fine, each to their own, but don’t deride those of us who for now, still value them. We have done 2 cruises post covid, loved them both, next up Equinox in September. We will keep an open mind and are not blind loyalists and if we find that to be not up to scratch we will say so. 

[Gracie115]

20 hours ago, TeeRick said:

  We have opened our eyes to non-cruise vacations, and also to other cruise lines not named Celebrity.  We now understand that the expensive Celebrity cruises (with lesser quality now) are in competition with all sorts of vacations.  We are so much the better now for this!

 

This....... exactly.....  

[TeeRick]

13 hours ago, ldtr said:

While one can certainly save some money by doing home rentals I refuse to do such. I have seen too much damage done to communities in tourist areas by people buying up properties and turning them into vacation rentals. Pretty much driving locals out of the local housing market and in many ways negatively impacts services in those areas doe to the impact on employees.

 

Many areas have been very negatively impacted by such conversions.

ok.  we rent from local families.

[Nemanoxer]

Making a complex issue simple, surely without the intention to offend any fellow cruisers:

 

Why would I care about my customers as long as I can be sure that they care more about some fancy machine hanging over the water that they can brag about after the cruise, than they care about top notch food, superb service and feeling well on older but super taken care of ships?

 

People keep booking Celebrity like crazy no matter what. 

 

For the first time in my crusing life, I have kicked X out of my plans now. I will try Sun Princess next year.

 

To close this post on a more objective note: I hope the new CEO is no longer all about the bling only. How I would personally find out? If one day someone tells me X has fired up a real and full out refurbish of the S-Class - then I would believe someone is back in reality. That ship class is the best X has to offer, my opinion only.