Container Ship Struck Key Bridge in Baltimore, Bridge has Collapsed

[Sea Dog]

29 minutes ago, chengkp75 said:

 

I don't know who this blogger is, or what his maritime experience is, but it has some errors in his analysis.

 

The most glaring error is when he says that the black smoke coming from the ship indicates an "engine problem".  This is not correct.  The type of diesel engines used on ships like this, are connected directly to the propeller, and are required to stop whenever the propeller is needed to be stopped, or reversed.  Therefore, the engine needs to stop and restart when going from ahead to astern, and this always results in a cloud of black smoke when the engine starts.  Also, if the engine is immediately placed to a "full astern" bell, the black smoke will continue until the turbocharger catches up with the air needed by the engine at that high load.  And, the engine that drives the propeller is not the engine that provides electricity to the ship, so when the generator engine failed, causing the black out, the "main engine" that drives the propeller stops as well, so when power comes back on, it restarts, causing the black smoke again.

 

He also claims that by backing down (going stern to stop the ship), the ship will veer to one side or another (and this is correct), but that if they continued to allow the ship to glide forward without propulsion, that they would have had "some control".  This is also not correct.  A traditional rudder loses effectiveness when the speed of the ship through the water is less than 5 knots (that's why ships use thrusters to swing ships at the dock, and tugs to push the ship when operating at low speed along the dock).  So, there would have been almost no benefit from the rudder when coasting forward.

 

Steering would also not be lost when the power went out.  One of the two electro-hydraulic steering systems is powered by the emergency generator (which comes on automatically when the ship loses power), and when in confined waters (under a pilot's orders), this is the steering system that would have been in use, just because this could have happened.

 

I can't remember other things he said, but it may come to me later.

 

Thank you Chief for your expertise. 

[time4u2go]

9 minutes ago, Cruising Auntie said:

The cargo ship hit the bridge directly. Nothing to do with height 

I don't believe anyone suggested that the collision had anything to do with height (unless I missed it).

[BND]

People are calling Royal.  I knew this would happen.  Just be patient.  We all want to know how it affects our cruises, but give them a chance, geez.  

[Earthworm Jim]

1 hour ago, Engineroom Snipe said:

How do we efficiently get 2,400 passengers from the Port of Bayonne to the Port of Baltimore?

 

Million dollar question.

 

 

It can be done. I was on a cruise out of Tampa once when they couldn't return to Tampa because they were worried about a hurricane. (Katrina, which ended up hitting N.O. of course) We instead returned to Miami, and they bused us back the 4 hours to Tampa in time for us to make our afternoon flight home.

 

It was actually impressively well organized for something done on short notice.

[Cru1s1ng2009]

5 minutes ago, BND said:

People are calling Royal.  I knew this would happen.  Just be patient.  We all want to know how it affects our cruises, but give them a chance, geez.  

so frustrating. 

 

I am fairly certain the next 3 i have planned for vision are likely not going to happen. 

[Engineroom Snipe]

3 minutes ago, Earthworm Jim said:

 

 

It can be done. I was on a cruise out of Tampa once when they couldn't return to Tampa because they were worried about a hurricane. (Katrina, which ended up hitting N.O. of course) We instead returned to Miami, and they bused us back the 4 hours to Tampa in time for us to make our afternoon flight home.

 

It was actually impressively well organized for something done on short notice.

 

Around 40 buses could do it. Start the wagon train......

 

Rollin' rollin' rollin' 
Rollin' rollin' rollin' 
Rollin' rollin' rollin' 
Rollin' rollin' rollin'   Theme from Rawhide

[Charles4515]

58 minutes ago, SRF said:

Have you ridden Amtrak?  Trains are close to full. Not going to absorb 3000 people plus luggage. 
 

Plenty of times. They could add more coaches to trains and/or add more trains. No problem at all. A Northeast Regional can have about 800 passengers seated. What you see as a full train is because they don't run them with more coaches than they anticipate selling seats because they would have to add crew. 

Edited March 26 by Charles4515

[firefly333]

8 workmen were filling pot holes on the bridge. 6 still missing. First I've heard why they were on the bridge at night.

Edited March 26 by firefly333

[Jenna1983]

7 minutes ago, Cru1s1ng2009 said:

so frustrating. 

 

I am fairly certain the next 3 i have planned for vision are likely not going to happen. 

People are calling Royal already? Sheesh. The only people who should even be concerned in this moment or near future are really the people on a Baltimore sailing now. I’m with you- I don’t believe I’ll be sailing end of September and really…I’ll survive. 
 

My brother lives in Baltimore. I have been across this bridge numerous times on my way to Annapolis. I was excited to sail under this bridge end of summer. I am more concerned about the loss of life, the economic ramifications from loss of jobs at the Port, not being able to move hazardous waste, import/export of cars, etc. I’d say cruising is at the bottom of the importance at the moment to those people who are calling!

Edited March 26 by Jenna1983

[Earthworm Jim]

2 hours ago, KmomChicago said:

Of course some percentage of cruisers drive rather than fly and can drive a few more or fewer miles to a different port. Maybe figure half? 

 

I don't know the percentages, but my guess is northeast ports such as Baltimore probably have a lot higher percentage of drivers than warm weather ports. If you're going to fly to your cruise, you'll probably fly to Florida, New Orleans, etc.and spend your whole cruise in the warmth. The main advantage of Baltimore in chilly seasons is if you can avoid flights by driving there.

[Wehwalt]

14 minutes ago, BND said:

People are calling Royal.  I knew this would happen.  Just be patient.  We all want to know how it affects our cruises, but give them a chance, geez.  

As you way, we knew it would happen. Also I have no doubt that onboard the Vision, people are seeking information where they can. It's human nature. People will ask until they have the information they desire. I don't fault them.

[Earthworm Jim]

2 minutes ago, Jenna1983 said:

I’d say cruising is at the bottom of the importance at the moment. 

 

Well, yeah. But since this is a cruising site, of course we're going to talk about the cruising angle.

[Cru1s1ng2009]

3 minutes ago, Jenna1983 said:

People are calling Royal already? Sheesh. The only people who should even be concerned in this moment or near future are really the people on a Baltimore sailing now. I’m with you- I don’t believe I’ll be sailing end of September and really…I’ll survive. 
 

My brother lives in Baltimore. I have been across this bridge numerous times on my way to Annapolis. I was excited to sail under this bridge end of summer. I am more concerned about the loss of life, the economic ramifications from loss of jobs at the Port, not being able to move hazardous waste, import/export of cars, etc. I’d say cruising is at the bottom of the importance at the moment. 

exactly...

 

i would hate to see cruising never coming back to maryland but for the foreseeable future, it isnt looking good. 

[time4u2go]

5 minutes ago, firefly333 said:

8 workmen were filling pot holes on the bridge. 6 still missing. First I've heard why they were on the bridge at night.

It's unclear if you are asking why they were on the bridge at night, but if you are, a good reason would be so that they could close traffic lanes while they work, with minimal impact on traffic.

 

Edited March 26 by time4u2go

[KmomChicago]

1 minute ago, Earthworm Jim said:

 

Well, yeah. But since this is a cruising site, of course we're going to talk about the cruising angle.

Agree and there will be decisions of some sort made. The in progress and upcoming voyages won’t just be forgotten as less important of the many current problems.

 

4 minutes ago, Earthworm Jim said:

 

I don't know the percentages, but my guess is northeast ports such as Baltimore probably have a lot higher percentage of drivers than warm weather ports. If you're going to fly to your cruise, you'll probably fly to Florida, New Orleans, etc.and spend your whole cruise in the warmth. The main advantage of Baltimore in chilly seasons is if you can avoid flights by driving there.

I would agree with this as well. 
 

 

[BND]

2 minutes ago, Wehwalt said:

As you way, we knew it would happen. Also I have no doubt that onboard the Vision, people are seeking information where they can. It's human nature. People will ask until they have the information they desire. I don't fault them.

I have a friend onboard. The Captain has announced he'll let them know once he knows something.  The fact, that less than 12 hours after the tragedy, people are calling.  They can't get info until decisions have been made.  Calling just jams up the phone lines. The people answering certainly have no idea.

 

[Wehwalt]

7 minutes ago, Earthworm Jim said:

 

I don't know the percentages, but my guess is northeast ports such as Baltimore probably have a lot higher percentage of drivers than warm weather ports. If you're going to fly to your cruise, you'll probably fly to Florida, New Orleans, etc.and spend your whole cruise in the warmth. The main advantage of Baltimore in chilly seasons is if you can avoid flights by driving there.

One of the big attractions of Baltimore is that they have a nice big surface parking lot right by the cruise terminal. It's easy. I cruised out of there three times before I moved too far south, and each time I'm out and on I 95 in no time.

[Engineroom Snipe]

1 minute ago, Cru1s1ng2009 said:

exactly...

 

i would hate to see cruising never coming back to maryland but for the foreseeable future, it isnt looking good. 

Baltimore handles over 500,000 cruise passengers a year. I do not think they want to permanently lose that revenue and the cruise lines do not want to lose a home port forever.

[Charles4515]

2 minutes ago, time4u2go said:

It's unclear if you are asking why they were on the bridge at night, but if you are, a good reason would be so that they could close traffic lanes while they work, with minimal impact on traffic.

 

Most road work on 695, 95, and 495 is done at night in Maryland. 

[chengkp75]

32 minutes ago, PATRLR said:

I'm struggling to parse this. The blue highlighted text seems to contradict the yellow.  The yellow says the drive engine and the electricity are not the same source, but the blue seems to say they are connected.  What am I misunderstanding here?

There are three diesel generator sets that provide electricity to the ship.  These generators are not connected to the propeller in any way.  There would have been two of the three generators on line while in the port.  The "main engine" that propels the propeller does require electricity to operate it's various automation features.  So, without electrical power, the engine will stop.  It can be run "manually" without electricity, but it takes time to transfer control to the local control stand physically on the engine, but this is a difficult thing to do, especially at low speed, and another reason for continued black smoke, as the throttle is less precise than the electric governor, and the turbocharger has a hard time providing enough air for complete combustion.

 

So, even when the lights came back on the ship, that does not mean the main engine was able to run, or running at that time.

[Wehwalt]

3 minutes ago, Charles4515 said:

Most road work on 695, 95, and 495 is done at night in Maryland. 

Also 895. I used to drive quite often from DC area to NYC area in the wee hours and it was routine to have one tube of the tunnels closed.

 

Look, we can discuss all we want about people calling. Many people are not as adept with communication as we are and hearing there is a problem they are going to call the cruise line. That's just the way it is. I don't think any less of them for doing it. Possibly Royal can head off some of it by being proactive with communications.

[Charles4515]

10 minutes ago, Engineroom Snipe said:

Baltimore handles over 500,000 cruise passengers a year. I do not think they want to permanently lose that revenue and the cruise lines do not want to lose a home port forever.

They will work to clear the channel as fast as they can. I heard a month. There are 30 to 40 cargo ships at the port. They will want to reoopn the port.  I don't see why cruise ships would be inhibited when the channel is cleared. 

Edited March 26 by Charles4515

[smokeybandit]

8 minutes ago, Cru1s1ng2009 said:

exactly...

 

i would hate to see cruising never coming back to maryland but for the foreseeable future, it isnt looking good. 

There's extreme urgency just for general economic reasons to reopen the channel ASAP.  The cruise industry will benefit from that.  

[chengkp75]

I've sailed under the Key bridge many, many times, but I never thought about the lack of fendering, dolphins, or caissons to prevent allisions between ships and the bridge.  Other bridges that have been hit (Florida's Sunshine Skyway bridge) have built caissons (like small islands with concrete fendering) around the bridge supports, so that even if a ship strikes the caisson directly, it cannot reach the bridge support.  From what I see, they have a small caisson at the bridge support, and another ahead of that, but that one has a power line tower on it, which brings its own problems if struck.

[firefly333]

18 minutes ago, time4u2go said:

It's unclear if you are asking why they were on the bridge at night, but if you are, a good reason would be so that they could close traffic lanes while they work, with minimal impact on traffic.

 

No I wasnt asking... I said their job was to fill pot holes is why they were on the bridge. No question marks.