Why aren't HAL ships registered in Panama as well?

[AmazedByCruising]

Many ships don't fly the US flag for ships that are obviously actually US ships (Carnival, etc). I'm not that much interested in the exact legalities of such "flags of convenience", there must be enough reasons to fly such a flag. So I wonder why HAL ships are still registered in The Netherlands, instead of for instance Panama.

[A2Mich]

My guess is that it's more traditional than anything else. Or it may have been a requirement as to the original purchase.

[CPT Trips]

Queen Beatrix made Mickey a deal he couldn't refuse. Rumor has it she has photos.

[cb at sea]

US Flagged ships have to pay MAJOR taxes....these companies know you don't want to pay more, so the ship's are registered to foreign place where the taxes are lower. Good business sense.

 

Take note..Obama.

[A2Mich]

US Flagged ships have to pay MAJOR taxes....these companies know you don't want to pay more, so the ship's are registered to foreign place where the taxes are lower. Good business sense.

 

Take note..Obama.

 

Again, did you READ the OP's question? They understand the flags of convenience practice, but specifically asked why HAL ships were still registered in Europe whereas a large number of ships are registered in Latin American, Caribbean, or African nations.

[Shmoo here]

Again, did you READ the OP's question? They understand the flags of convenience practice, but specifically asked why HAL ships were still registered in Europe whereas a large number of ships are registered in Latin American, Caribbean, or African nations.

 

And the most obvious answer is - that's where Holland America wants to run their business from. Obviously it works for them.

[Aquahound]

Many ships don't fly the US flag for ships that are obviously actually US ships (Carnival, etc). I'm not that much interested in the exact legalities of such "flags of convenience", there must be enough reasons to fly such a flag. So I wonder why HAL ships are still registered in The Netherlands, instead of for instance Panama.

 

For a while, HAL did register their ships in the Bahamas, some Caribbean islands and I think Panama. But if memory serves me right, there was some sort of change in Dutch law or tax law that required HAL to go back to the Netherlands. Like anything corporate related, it was the money talking.

[GUT2407]

Why's Diamond Princess London registered.

 

HAL is Holland America Line, why not register in Holland if $$$$ are right?

 

Some people may even think they are still Holland owned.

[mikedw]

Actually Carnival Corporation is not an American company, it's corporate offices for tax purposes is in Panama. That's how they pay next to nothing in US taxes. Royal Caribbean is also a foreign corporation.

[A2Mich]

Actually Carnival Corporation is not an American company, it's corporate offices for tax purposes is in Panama. That's how they pay next to nothing in US taxes. Royal Caribbean is also a foreign corporation.

 

 

RCI is incorporated in Monrovia, Liberia.

[fishywood]

One reason HAL ships can remain registered in the Netherlands is that nearly their entire crew are from Indonesia or the Philippines. A ship registered in a European Union nation has to follow EU employment law when hiring crew members from fellow EU nations. Which is why Cunard switched their ships' registry from Britain to Bermuda (British overseas territories are considered outside the EU) when many of the former Slavic republic states which Cunard hires heavily from joined the EU. Cunard gave the excuse that they removed British registry so they could perform weddings onboard, but everyone immediately saw through that excuse. Conversely Princess switched the registry of Diamond and Sapphire Princess to Britain when those ships were permanently repositioned to Asia as their crews will also be mostly from Asia--and obviously Carnival PLC found some tax incentive in doing so.

Edited May 6, 2015 by fishywood

[CruiserBruce]

US Flagged ships have to pay MAJOR taxes....these companies know you don't want to pay more, so the ship's are registered to foreign place where the taxes are lower. Good business sense.

 

Take note..Obama.

 

It has absolute NOTHING to do with Obama. Ships flagged in the US would

be subject to US labor laws, and it has been that way for at least 50 years...before the President was born. I am guessing you haven't followed any of the discussions about Pride of America and the other ships NCL used to operate in Hawaii, during many other administrations.

 

Don't let the facts get in the way...

Edited May 6, 2015 by CruiserBruce

[sail7seas]

I am taking a 'stab in the dark' but wonder if it does not have something to do with the many Dutch Officers/Seamen and women that are on HAL ships. Many get their training at Nautical schools in The Netherlands.

 

For some years, all but one of HAL's ships were registered in The Netherlands but Veendam was flagged in The Bahamas. After a while, Veendam was reflagged the same as her fleetmates in The Netherlands. :)

 

 

 

[Anthomaniac]

Also, the president doesn't make tax law...that would be congress.

[Lerin]

US Flagged ships have to pay MAJOR taxes....these companies know you don't want to pay more, so the ship's are registered to foreign place where the taxes are lower. Good business sense.

 

Take note..Obama.

 

Scratching my head trying to figure out what Obama has to do with flags on HAL ships :rolleyes:

[sail7seas]

One reason HAL ships can remain registered in the Netherlands is that nearly their entire crew are from Indonesia or the Philippines. A ship registered in a European Union nation has to follow EU employment law when hiring crew members from fellow EU nations. Which is why Cunard switched their ships' registry from Britain to Bermuda (British overseas territories are considered outside the EU) when many of the former Slavic republic states which Cunard hires heavily from joined the EU. Cunard gave the excuse that they removed British registry so they could perform weddings onboard, but everyone immediately saw through that excuse. Conversely Princess switched the registry of Diamond and Sapphire Princess to Britain when those ships were permanently repositioned to Asia as their crews will also be mostly from Asia--and obviously Carnival PLC found some tax incentive in doing so.

 

I don't remember the exact or even roughly the year (and didn't bother to research :o) but I don't think the EU existed at the time HAL flagged all their ships (with the possible exception of Veendam) in The Netherlands. I think that action preceded the formation of EU.

 

[sail7seas]

I just found an old thread here on CC (April 9, 2012) which discussed this very subject.

 

The following quote was posted by Copper10-8 who is still an active CC/HAL poster and is currently an Officer on HAL ships. His information is usually 'spot on'. :)

 

Back in 1997, HAL had eight ships; Rotterdam V was registered in Willemstad, Curacao, sisters Nieuw Amsterdam and Noordam were registered in Sint Maarten, Westerdam, (ex-Homeric), and the (then) new sisters Statendam, Maasdam, Ryndam and Veendam were all registered in the Bahamas. On 10 May 1996, seven of the eight ships were re-registered under the Dutch flag with the City of Rotterdam painted on the sterns. (Veendam was the exception because, at the time, she had British Captains - Mercer & Harris - she was eventually re-flagged/registered to Dutch flag/Rotterdam also on 10 January 2006)

 

The reason for the re-registering to Dutch flag was a financial one and had to do with a change in Dutch tax policy

Edited May 6, 2015 by sail7seas

[navybankerteacher]

US Flagged ships have to pay MAJOR taxes....these companies know you don't want to pay more, so the ship's are registered to foreign place where the taxes are lower. Good business sense.

 

Take note..Obama.

 

Not so much taxes: US flagged ships have to observe US labor laws - which make a U.S. flagged ship almost impossible to operate profitably with the staffing cruise ships carry. The notable exception is NCL who, because of other law, must be US flagged to operate in Hawaiian waters (no foreign ports) - but their staffing costs on those ships make them apply a different pricing model than on the rest of the fleet.

[John Bull]

Not so much taxes: US flagged ships have to observe US labor laws - which make a U.S. flagged ship almost impossible to operate profitably with the staffing cruise ships carry. .

 

Yes, I think legislation rather than taxes is the reason for flags of convenience.

 

The reason Cunard gave for switching registration from London to Hamilton a few years back was so that on-board weddings would be legal - but the cynics amongst us reckon it has to do with the same reason as given by NBT. Here's an old news clipping http://www.telegraph.co.uk/travel/cruises/8838472/Cunard-to-register-ships-in-Bermuda.html

 

BTW, Princess ships are (were??) registered in London because Princess is a British cruise line.

Well, sort of. ;)

It was a Brit. line acquired by P&O, also British. Then P&O was acquired by the Carnival empire, but is still managed by a Brit subsidiary of Carnival. Ships of both lines fly the red duster.

P&O is still very British-orientated, whereas Princess is mid-Atlantic but more US than UK.

 

It's unusual for British institutions like P&O and Cunard to be sold-off to America. Most Brit businesses are owned by Arabs, the Japanese or the French. :rolleyes: ;)

 

JB :)

Edited May 6, 2015 by John Bull

[njhorseman]

Yes, I think legislation rather than taxes is the reason for flags of convenience.

 

The reason Cunard gave for switching registration from London to Hamilton a few years back was so that on-board weddings would be legal - but the cynics amongst us reckon it has to do with the same reason as given by NBT. Here's an old news clipping http://www.telegraph.co.uk/travel/cruises/8838472/Cunard-to-register-ships-in-Bermuda.html

 

BTW, Princess ships are (were??) registered in London because Princess is a British cruise line.

Well, sort of. ;)

It was a Brit. line acquired by P&O, also British. Then P&O was acquired by the Carnival empire, but is still managed by a Brit subsidiary of Carnival. Ships of both lines fly the red duster.

P&O is still very British-orientated, whereas Princess is mid-Atlantic but more US than UK.

 

It's unusual for British institutions like P&O and Cunard to be sold-off to America. Most Brit businesses are owned by Arabs, the Japanese or the French. :rolleyes: ;)

 

JB :)

 

All Princess ships are currently registered in Bermuda.

[navybankerteacher]

All Princess ships are currently registered in Bermuda.

 

As with Cunard --- there is that comforting "Britishness" about the Bermuda flag. The Bahamas flag looks much less traditionally nautical and sea-going-like.

 

It probably makes no real difference whose bunting is flown -- but there is a vague nautical comfort offered by the Dutch tricolor --- or even Celebrity's Maltese Cross - reminiscent of the galleys of the Knights

[Aquahound]

I just found an old thread here on CC (April 9, 2012) which discussed this very subject.

 

The following quote was posted by Copper10-8 who is still an active CC/HAL poster and is currently an Officer on HAL ships. His information is usually 'spot on'. :)

 

Thanks for finding that post. What he said was right in line with what I was also remembering.

[BruceMuzz]

Scratching my head trying to figure out what Obama has to do with flags on HAL ships :rolleyes:

 

There is one other small detail that gets in the way.

A ship cannot be legally flagged US unless it was built in the USA.

 

There are currently no shipyards in America willing or able to build a cruise ship.

The last one that tried it went bankrupt.

[AmazedByCruising]

I just found an old thread here on CC (April 9, 2012) which discussed this very subject.

 

The following quote was posted by Copper10-8 who is still an active CC/HAL poster and is currently an Officer on HAL ships. His information is usually 'spot on'. :)

 

"The reason for the re-registering to Dutch flag was a financial one and had to do with a change in Dutch tax policy"

 

Thanks everyone, and especially sail7seas for finding the thread I couldn't find. Dutch IRS being nicer than the Bahama is surely surprising. Maybe I should find an accountant who knows how to turn my software business into a "cruise line operation". :D

 

It probably makes no real difference whose bunting is flown -- but there is a vague nautical comfort offered by the Dutch tricolor --- or even Celebrity's Maltese Cross - reminiscent of the galleys of the Knights

 

HAL itself doesn't advertise in The Netherlands it seems, at least I've never seen an ad. Every TA however starts with "MS Rotterdam, flying the Dutch flag,... "

[CruiserBruce]

"The reason for the re-registering to Dutch flag was a financial one and had to do with a change in Dutch tax policy"

 

Thanks everyone, and especially sail7seas for finding the thread I couldn't find. Dutch IRS being nicer than the Bahama is surely surprising. Maybe I should find an accountant who knows how to turn my software business into a "cruise line operation". :D

 

 

 

HAL itself doesn't advertise in The Netherlands it seems, at least I've never seen an ad. Every TA however starts with "MS Rotterdam, flying the Dutch flag,... "

 

Because you haven't seen an add, they don't advertise there? Hmmmm...HAL does have a ship home ported in Rotterdam.