No More Officers at Meet & Greets?

[cruz chic]

I guess when I take my next cruise I will need to attend a meet and greet. But I still have a question about the proper etiquette in talking to the Ship Officers.

 

It would obviously be poor form to invite the ship officers to your meeting and then ignore them but I still do not get the discussion of private tours as being a no no. But I am presuming at these M&Gs that they are not some organized Roberts Rules of Order meeting but rather a mingling and perhaps this is the cause for my confusion. That therefore some of the M&Gers might be talking to the Officers while others are discussing other topics which might include the excursions planned during the voyage whether HAL sponsored or not.

 

The Officers must be aware that every passenger does not take a HAL sponsored excursion. My understanding is that these excursions for the most part are not provided by HAL but rather are contracted by HAL with private parties and HAL gets a commission. I will presume that the Officers do not get a commission and are compensated the same whether I take a HAL sponsored excursion or a private excursion.

 

If I ever got invited to the Officer's table for dinner and the conversation drifted around to what I did that day. If I took a private tour should I just keep quiet. Should I apologize for not taking a HAL sponsored tour.

 

My guess is that the Officers hear about both the HAL sponsored tours and the private tours and if asked might enjoy relaying their knowledge of a particular tour to a questioner. Ie I took a flight on a private tour to the Misty fjords and unlike many of the operators this tour operator landed and let us out on the land rather than the pontoons. If I talked to the Officers and I said "I wanted to take a tour that let me walk on the land and not just the pontoon" that they might (if they knew about it) recommend this tour and indicate that they had heard nothing but good things about it. I can not imagine the Officers taking offense to my discussing the tour with them.

 

I just can not imagine the Officers being such Company men that they would take offense at the discussion of anything non-HAL in their presence nor would I think it out of bounds to enter into such discussions with the Officers. I will say that I would not expect them to be as knowledgeable about non-HAL ships, tours or anything else but then they probably are still more knowledgeable than me.

 

I know there have been a few posts over the years where it has been expressed that the officers don't want to hear about private tours at meet and greets. It's also been stated in this thread that the reason officers don't attend these meetings is because they are being hit with too many complaints. I would never bring tours or issues up at a meet and greet in an officers presence. I feel that is inappropriate. We all have to decide for ourselves if it's proper to do that.

[LAFFNVEGAS]

I guess when I take my next cruise I will need to attend a meet and greet. But I still have a question about the proper etiquette in talking to the Ship Officers.

 

It would obviously be poor form to invite the ship officers to your meeting and then ignore them but I still do not get the discussion of private tours as being a no no. But I am presuming at these M&Gs that they are not some organized Roberts Rules of Order meeting but rather a mingling and perhaps this is the cause for my confusion. That therefore some of the M&Gers might be talking to the Officers while others are discussing other topics which might include the excursions planned during the voyage whether HAL sponsored or not.

 

The Officers must be aware that every passenger does not take a HAL sponsored excursion. My understanding is that these excursions for the most part are not provided by HAL but rather are contracted by HAL with private parties and HAL gets a commission. I will presume that the Officers do not get a commission and are compensated the same whether I take a HAL sponsored excursion or a private excursion.

 

If I ever got invited to the Officer's table for dinner and the conversation drifted around to what I did that day. If I took a private tour should I just keep quiet. Should I apologize for not taking a HAL sponsored tour.

 

My guess is that the Officers hear about both the HAL sponsored tours and the private tours and if asked might enjoy relaying their knowledge of a particular tour to a questioner. Ie I took a flight on a private tour to the Misty fjords and unlike many of the operators this tour operator landed and let us out on the land rather than the pontoons. If I talked to the Officers and I said "I wanted to take a tour that let me walk on the land and not just the pontoon" that they might (if they knew about it) recommend this tour and indicate that they had heard nothing but good things about it. I can not imagine the Officers taking offense to my discussing the tour with them.

 

I just can not imagine the Officers being such Company men that they would take offense at the discussion of anything non-HAL in their presence nor would I think it out of bounds to enter into such discussions with the Officers. I will say that I would not expect them to be as knowledgeable about non-HAL ships, tours or anything else but then they probably are still more knowledgeable than me.

Let me give a it of information that is not probably known and applies to anyone that is not accustom to commission or bonus pay income. First off the Hotel Director and the Captain both get bonus based on profit of the ship and the Holland America Shore Excursions are a big part of their bonus of what is sold for each sailing. Their Bonus is a big part of their salary/income. By talking and organizing something that take something out of their pocket right in front of them is rather a slap in their face.

Sadly many do not understand commission based or bonus based income.

 

Over the years these Private Excursions have become rather big and less people purchase direct from HAL. This is often but not always why HAL will pull out of a particular port or region for a short while. Granted not the main reason but one of the determining factors. The Mexican Riviera is a good example and Shore Excursions was was taking a beating because everyone was buying private excursions. I was basically told several years ago by several Officers that the problems in Mexico was a convenient excuse for the ships to pull out of Mexico for a while because they were making no money there. Many of those Private Operators in Mexico did go out of business so now the cruise lines are starting back up fairly strong.

[cruz chic]

Let me give a it of information that is not probably known and applies to anyone that is not accustom to commission or bonus pay income. First off the Hotel Director and the Captain both get bonus based on profit of the ship and the Holland America Shore Excursions are a big part of their bonus of what is sold for each sailing. Their Bonus is a big part of their salary/income. By talking and organizing something that take something out of their pocket right in front of them is rather a slap in their face.

Sadly many do not understand commission based or bonus based income.

 

Over the years these Private Excursions have become rather big and less people purchase direct from HAL. This is often but not always why HAL will pull out of a particular port or region for a short while. Granted not the main reason but one of the determining factors. The Mexican Riviera is a good example and Shore Excursions was was taking a beating because everyone was buying private excursions. I was basically told several years ago by several Officers that the problems in Mexico was a convenient excuse for the ships to pull out of Mexico for a while because they were making no money there. Many of those Private Operators in Mexico did go out of business so now the cruise lines are starting back up fairly strong.

Thx for this explanation.

[durangoscots]

 

 

The Officers must be aware that every passenger does not take a HAL sponsored excursion. My understanding is that these excursions for the most part are not provided by HAL but rather are contracted by HAL with private parties and HAL gets a commission. I will presume that the Officers do not get a commission and are compensated the same whether I take a HAL sponsored excursion or a private excursion.

 

If I ever got invited to the Officer's table for dinner and the conversation drifted around to what I did that day. If I took a private tour should I just keep quiet. Should I apologize for not taking a HAL sponsored tour.

 

 

 

Ok.... there are two issues here.... so let''s use common sense.

 

For the meet and greets ... if people are quietly discussing private tours I think there is no problem. The problem is at some meet and greets, people have stood up while the officers are there and made major annoucements about their tours ... and obviously collected money. The generally accepted feeling seems to be that this is a bit rude to the hosting agency. On most cruises I have been on, the tour organizer has given out information before the cruise even starts and told people to seek her or him out privately at the end of the M & G. This generally works. Only once did I see a person pushing a tour at a M & G and the fact that were no takers speaks for itself.

 

As to dining conversation, of course the officers know about private tours and a question about "what did you do today" can be answered honestly. I have had staff specifically ask about a private tour I took .... how did they know I took one? Well, a small group of us meeting up in the Ocean Bar or the Atrium is pretty obvious and at least one time HAL staff helped us get off quickly and together.

 

Susan

[kazu]

Let me give a it of information that is not probably known and applies to anyone that is not accustom to commission or bonus pay income. First off the Hotel Director and the Captain both get bonus based on profit of the ship and the Holland America Shore Excursions are a big part of their bonus of what is sold for each sailing. Their Bonus is a big part of their salary/income. By talking and organizing something that take something out of their pocket right in front of them is rather a slap in their face.

Sadly many do not understand commission based or bonus based income.

 

Over the years these Private Excursions have become rather big and less people purchase direct from HAL. This is often but not always why HAL will pull out of a particular port or region for a short while. Granted not the main reason but one of the determining factors. The Mexican Riviera is a good example and Shore Excursions was was taking a beating because everyone was buying private excursions. I was basically told several years ago by several Officers that the problems in Mexico was a convenient excuse for the ships to pull out of Mexico for a while because they were making no money there. Many of those Private Operators in Mexico did go out of business so now the cruise lines are starting back up fairly strong.

 

Thanks Lisa for this.

 

Let me just add that for umpteen surveys, I have pointed out that HAL needs to do smaller tours (like the Secrets of the Vatican).

 

Many of us do not like the waste of time with 40 people. Washroom breaks, late from "shopping" or "free time", etc.

 

Finally, HAL has started to offer some tours with smaller numbers (at least on our upcoming cruise). Not many but a few. It's a tad more, but worth it from my point of view. We actually have a number from the roll call on those and we will all go on the same van/mini bus.

 

If HAL did more of these and gave a higher quality product, a good number of us don't mind paying for it.

 

If the Senior officers get paid bonuses based on profit and if shore excursions are a major contributor, then perhaps more attention should be paid to the complaints that go to the shore excursions desk so that quality issues are rectified more quickly and people feel more confident to book. (address it, pass it on to Seattle, whatever). It would be in everyone's best interest. Many book private tours because of a lack of quality - especially some of the expensive tours in the evenings

Edited October 7, 2015 by kazu

[SilvertoGold]

Let me give a it of information that is not probably known and applies to anyone that is not accustom to commission or bonus pay income. First off the Hotel Director and the Captain both get bonus based on profit of the ship and the Holland America Shore Excursions are a big part of their bonus of what is sold for each sailing. Their Bonus is a big part of their salary/income. By talking and organizing something that take something out of their pocket right in front of them is rather a slap in their face.

Sadly many do not understand commission based or bonus based income.

 

Over the years these Private Excursions have become rather big and less people purchase direct from HAL. This is often but not always why HAL will pull out of a particular port or region for a short while. Granted not the main reason but one of the determining factors. The Mexican Riviera is a good example and Shore Excursions was was taking a beating because everyone was buying private excursions. I was basically told several years ago by several Officers that the problems in Mexico was a convenient excuse for the ships to pull out of Mexico for a while because they were making no money there. Many of those Private Operators in Mexico did go out of business so now the cruise lines are starting back up fairly strong.

 

 

This is interesting.

 

I agree that they do not want to hear about private excursions, yet this bonus system demonstrates all the more reason for the Captain and HD to be front and center.

 

So, they are relying on pax spending for "the bonus which is a big part of their salary/income", but the pax spending is generated in part by other crew: spa, casino, bars, shorex, dining, shops, future cruise purchases and deposits....

 

And the Captain and HD do not want to talk to the pax? They want to be invisible.

No Captain's Reception, no VIP parties, no presence at the Suite Welcome Reception or CC Meet and Greets....

 

Maybe someone should talk about "happy pax, open wallets": the Captain and HD could earn more, perhaps.

Edited October 7, 2015 by SilvertoGold

[LAFFNVEGAS]

This is interesting.

 

I agree that they do not want to hear about private excursions, yet this bonus system demonstrates all the more reason for the Captain and HD to be front and center.

 

So, they are relying on pax spending for "a big part of their salary/income", but the pax spending is generated in part by other crew: spa, casino, bars, shorex, dining, shops, future cruise purchases and deposits....

 

And the Captain and HD do not want to talk to the pax? They want to be invisible.

No Captain's Reception, no VIP parties, no presence at the Suite Welcome Reception or CC Meet and Greets....

 

Maybe someone should talk about "happy pax, open wallets": the Captain and HD could earn more, perhaps.

Oh I agree with you 200%, unfortunately HAL is currently in a downward spiral that is still undecided if they can get out of. Most of this comes from decisions WAY at the top that started to occur in around 2005. This has left those on the ships with their hands totally tied and unable to do anything.

I think until they have a Clear forecast of who they are and where they want to go this will continue. For many years it was all about making the bottom line look good, despite going through the rough lean times of 2008 to 2012. I think (just my opinion) they have realized there has been some major errors made but now not sure which problem to fix first.

I think there was lots of Hope that the new leadership would be their saving grace but right now the jury is out on if that will be their answer. Just my opinion their are far more other issues that we as cruisers are totally unaware of that need fixing. So kind of like placing your finger in the dyke and then 20 other leaks spring open. ;)

For right now they are just trying to make sure every cabin is filled no matter how cheap they sell it and hope people will spend money. Of course this is the same theory they have been using for several year....Not sure that is working for them.

[cruz chic]

Oh I agree with you 200%, unfortunately HAL is currently in a downward spiral that is still undecided if they can get out of. Most of this comes from decisions WAY at the top that started to occur in around 2005. This has left those on the ships with their hands totally tied and unable to do anything.

I think until they have a Clear forecast of who they are and where they want to go this will continue. For many years it was all about making the bottom line look good, despite going through the rough lean times of 2008 to 2012. I think (just my opinion) they have realized there has been some major errors made but now not sure which problem to fix first.

I think there was lots of Hope that the new leadership would be their saving grace but right now the jury is out on if that will be their answer. Just my opinion their are far more other issues that we as cruisers are totally unaware of that need fixing. So kind of like placing your finger in the dyke and then 20 other leaks spring open. ;)

For right now they are just trying to make sure every cabin is filled no matter how cheap they sell it and hope people will spend money. Of course this is the same theory they have been using for several year....Not sure that is working for them.

 

Your posts have been very interesting. Thx for sharing them. Sad situation really. Hal is still my favorite but that is quickly deteriorating. I'm reading on the wcb cruise thread right now about the ever shrinking portion sizes. They got a room service burger and said it was hardly bigger than a slider. That's just silly. Before someone points out you can order as much as you want I get that. You shouldn't have to order 3 or 4 plates to make one regular size order.

[kazu]

Your posts have been very interesting. Thx for sharing them. Sad situation really. Hal is still my favorite but that is quickly deteriorating. I'm reading on the wcb cruise thread right now about the ever shrinking portion sizes. They got a room service burger and said it was hardly bigger than a slider. That's just silly. Before someone points out you can order as much as you want I get that. You shouldn't have to order 3 or 4 plates to make one regular size order.

 

agree and if someone isn't following the blogs or CC, how are they to know you need to order 2 or 3?

 

I hope things make a dramatic turn around before our Westerdam cruise.

[sail7seas]

I don't doubt Lisa is accurate in what she says and it breaks my heart. HAL will always have a piece of my heart for all the wonderful memories, the people we met and became so attached to, the celebrations, the treats and outstanding surprises HAL provided us time after time but any of us who have been around HAL for decades know HAL, as we know and love it, is disappearing.

 

It may be sufficient and acceptable for newcomers but for those of us who have sailed hundreds and hundreds of days, the changes are too extreme to recognize the HAL we love. When you don't know what you are missing, you don't know you are missing it. :)

[InTheWASide]

HAL is definitely NOT the Cruise line it was a few years ago and I think you will see more and more changes that basically Officers will be invisible non approachable.

While Money is concerned it has nothing to do with Officers attending Meet and Greets, having VIP Parties and Attending Suite Parties.

The Complaint Box is over flowing and it Overflows at these functions which is not the time and place but since HAL does nothing to correct it's on board problems other than hand out a plate of Chocolate covered Strawberries and if you are lucky some ship board credit... HAL is not willing to spend money to fix their ships and no money is being allocated at all to the remaining S and R Class ships. If the Officers stay away from the Passengers they do not have to deal with it. Officers basically have to have a Closed Door Policy, they have no choice for their own sanity. This did NOT come down from the Main Officer but rather came from the ships and Main Office agreed.

 

I agree with a decent amount of this Lisa, but not the part about no money for the R class... Amsterdam gets some sort of touchups every single year due to the world cruises... Volendam just got that MASSIVE dry dock in December...

 

The S Class seems to have been all but abandoned but the R class still sees some cash

[sppunk]

I agree with a decent amount of this Lisa, but not the part about no money for the R class... Amsterdam gets some sort of touchups every single year due to the world cruises... Volendam just got that MASSIVE dry dock in December...

 

The S Class seems to have been all but abandoned but the R class still sees some cash

 

Rotterdam also just had a multi-million dollar (well Euro technically!) makeover.

[RedneckBob]

And I'm sure the hired help does not want to deal with "the Cargo" ;)

 

Y'all calling us passengers the "Cargo"

 

Maybe before "Happy Hour" I should post a sign on my back:

 

"This Side Up"

 

with delivery instructions to my cabin if I forget :eek:!

[Tarpeian Rock]

Let me give a it of information that is not probably known and applies to anyone that is not accustom to commission or bonus pay income. First off the Hotel Director and the Captain both get bonus based on profit of the ship and the Holland America Shore Excursions are a big part of their bonus of what is sold for each sailing. Their Bonus is a big part of their salary/income. By talking and organizing something that take something out of their pocket right in front of them is rather a slap in their face.

Sadly many do not understand commission based or bonus based income.

 

Over the years these Private Excursions have become rather big and less people purchase direct from HAL. This is often but not always why HAL will pull out of a particular port or region for a short while. Granted not the main reason but one of the determining factors. The Mexican Riviera is a good example and Shore Excursions was was taking a beating because everyone was buying private excursions. I was basically told several years ago by several Officers that the problems in Mexico was a convenient excuse for the ships to pull out of Mexico for a while because they were making no money there. Many of those Private Operators in Mexico did go out of business so now the cruise lines are starting back up fairly strong.

 

 

I would love to know more about this. I thought it was a fundamental principle that bonuses related to factors under one's control - thus, the motivation to out-perform. I have trouble understanding how a captain can directly affect the profitability of a given voyage or even calendar quarter. Excursions and alcohol are probably the two biggest money-makers. Excursion contracts are handled by corporate with multi-year durations - what is a captain's role here? Perhaps a captain is more involved in the hotel side than I appreciate, but I also don't understand how a captain can affect alcohol sales. The one area I can understand under a captain would be fuel consumption of course, but courses are essentially automated and fixed, and weather obviously can influence fuel consumption. So where does that leave his bonus?

[sammiedawg]

Oh I agree with you 200%, unfortunately HAL is currently in a downward spiral that is still undecided if they can get out of. Most of this comes from decisions WAY at the top that started to occur in around 2005. This has left those on the ships with their hands totally tied and unable to do anything.

I think until they have a Clear forecast of who they are and where they want to go this will continue. For many years it was all about making the bottom line look good, despite going through the rough lean times of 2008 to 2012. I think (just my opinion) they have realized there has been some major errors made but now not sure which problem to fix first.

I think there was lots of Hope that the new leadership would be their saving grace but right now the jury is out on if that will be their answer. Just my opinion their are far more other issues that we as cruisers are totally unaware of that need fixing. So kind of like placing your finger in the dyke and then 20 other leaks spring open. ;)

For right now they are just trying to make sure every cabin is filled no matter how cheap they sell it and hope people will spend money. Of course this is the same theory they have been using for several year....Not sure that is working for them.

 

My travel agent friend quit recommending HAL quite a while ago because she has to deal with so many post cruise complaints about ship condition. Even on the vista class. She says HAL has been significantly devalued by the parent company and the fleet will be downsized.

[sail7seas]

Fuel savings impact bonuses.

If all are aboard ten minutes early for leaving port, there is fuel savings by leaving immediately and not waiting for no practical reason.

[cruz chic]

I would love to know more about this. I thought it was a fundamental principle that bonuses related to factors under one's control - thus, the motivation to out-perform. I have trouble understanding how a captain can directly affect the profitability of a given voyage or even calendar quarter. Excursions and alcohol are probably the two biggest money-makers. Excursion contracts are handled by corporate with multi-year durations - what is a captain's role here? Perhaps a captain is more involved in the hotel side than I appreciate, but I also don't understand how a captain can affect alcohol sales. The one area I can understand under a captain would be fuel consumption of course, but courses are essentially automated and fixed, and weather obviously can influence fuel consumption. So where does that leave his bonus?

 

That's how bonuses should be based but I found in my last few jobs it just didn't happen that way. That's the theory they always taught in school but I think someone forgot to tell corporate that :D (in my experience).

[InTheWASide]

Rotterdam also just had a multi-million dollar (well Euro technically!) makeover.

 

That's right. I had forgotten about that one... and likely even more coming soon. I think they had made a lot of areas bilingual (English Dutch) but as the ship comes back to the US they may need to replace some signage

[InTheWASide]

My travel agent friend quit recommending HAL quite a while ago because she has to deal with so many post cruise complaints about ship condition. Even on the vista class. She says HAL has been significantly devalued by the parent company and the fleet will be downsized.

 

Well the downsizing could be as simple as same pax capacity but less ships... that's evidenced by Ryndam and Statendam departing to be replaced by Koningsdam... and it may be a safe guess that 2 more ships will go and be replaced by Pinnacle Class #2

[sail7seas]

I hope they have beautiful blue hulls.

[SilvertoGold]

I don't doubt Lisa is accurate in what she says and it breaks my heart. HAL will always have a piece of my heart for all the wonderful memories, the people we met and became so attached to, the celebrations, the treats and outstanding surprises HAL provided us time after time but any of us who have been around HAL for decades know HAL, as we know and love it, is disappearing.

 

It may be sufficient and acceptable for newcomers but for those of us who have sailed hundreds and hundreds of days, the changes are too extreme to recognize the HAL we love. When you don't know what you are missing, you don't know you are missing it. :)

 

 

Things change, but I agree with you.

Hundreds and hundreds of days of going back and back to HAL, not even thinking of another line because there was no need to.

 

Now.....

[cbr663]

Interesting topic and comments. I just read an interview with Capt. Carl Smith of the Azamara Quest, who described his typical day as:

 

"Always busy. Meetings with my senior officers and getting out and about meeting the guests. I love talking and getting to know our guests. I want to be sure everyone is happy and everything is going A-Okay from every aspect onboard..."

 

This seems to be remarkably different from the atmosphere that HAL wants to create. HAL seems to want to prevent guests from having contact with the Captain and the officers. Comments that guests complain in M&Gs as the reason for the absence are very concerning. I would expect that an Officer that is well trained and experienced would be more than capable of handling such a situation. I would expect that an Officer would actually want to handle the situation.

 

When senior officers on a cruise ship demonstrate that guest interaction is to be avoided, then we have a clear signal that guest satisfaction is of little importance to that cruise line.

[Lizzie68]

Well, now I'm confused. Which is it? - they won't come to the M&Gs or any other social function with pax because the ships are not maintained and they are afraid of hearing complaints. OR, they will not come to M&Gs (or any other function for that matter, I guess) because private tours cut into their bonus. Oh nice PR. Not. Whichever it is, it stinks. Sorry, although I don't care about having officers present at any function, those excuses speak volumes to me about HAL's opinion of the customers.

[SilvertoGold]

Interesting topic and comments. I just read an interview with Capt. Carl Smith of the Azamara Quest, who described his typical day as:

 

"Always busy. Meetings with my senior officers and getting out and about meeting the guests. I love talking and getting to know our guests. I want to be sure everyone is happy and everything is going A-Okay from every aspect onboard..."

 

This seems to be remarkably different from the atmosphere that HAL wants to create. HAL seems to want to prevent guests from having contact with the Captain and the officers. Comments that guests complain in M&Gs as the reason for the absence are very concerning. I would expect that an Officer that is well trained and experienced would be more than capable of handling such a situation. I would expect that an Officer would actually want to handle the situation.

 

When senior officers on a cruise ship demonstrate that guest interaction is to be avoided, then we have a clear signal that guest satisfaction is of little importance to that cruise line.

 

Agree!

 

Two things:

1. Be careful what you read in interviews: they could be considered advertising for the line

2. Azamara ship are smaller, most of HAL's are larger. Fewer pax vs more pax. I guess fewer pax would not be so overwhelming to deal with.

However, as you you note, if a Captain, or HD for that matter, is well trained and experienced, they should be able to handle such situations.

 

It appears to me that some HAL Captains and HDs do not think their job description should include dealing with pax. Whether this attitude is new or old, I am not sure. They are perhaps making their feelings known to Seattle more now.

[SilvertoGold]

Well, now I'm confused. Which is it? - they won't come to the M&Gs or any other social function with pax because the ships are not maintained and they are afraid of hearing complaints. OR, they will not come to M&Gs (or any other function for that matter, I guess) because private tours cut into their bonus. Oh nice PR. Not. Whichever it is, it stinks. Sorry, although I don't care about having officers present at any function, those excuses speak volumes to me about HAL's opinion of the customers.

 

Probably both, plus pax want too much, want to talk too much, ask all the wrong questions (when they aren't actually complaining), are never satisfied....

 

Guest satisfaction has to be important to Seattle, but on some ships it seems to be a matter of just processing the pax, whatever the outcome.