Why not just get rid of "Chic Night"?

[friendlyfifer]

I really don't think we're making the same point, I'm actually in favour of a more relaxed dress code, but I can still dress up.

Care to back these remarks up with facts?

 

I doubt if any facts would satisfy you. Celebrity have relaxed the dress code for a reason. I don't know if it is due to customer demand or simply to appeal to the US market. I suspect the latter. What it does mean is that people like me who enjoy a more formal approach have to change our preferred cruise line.

Basically, if you think you are dressed appropriately then crew members have to accept your standard of dress. Chic means stylish and fashionable but that is too wide a definition to be of much guidance.

[bEwAbG]

I don't like to dress in formal wear because society has changed and formal wear is decidedly of a different era these days. At this point, those who wear true formal wear on a ship are doing so to attend a costume party. People don't even wear suits to church anymore. Times and customs change.

Edited January 23, 2017 by bEwAbG

[ECCruise]

I doubt if any facts would satisfy you. Celebrity have relaxed the dress code for a reason. I don't know if it is due to customer demand or simply to appeal to the US market. I suspect the latter. What it does mean is that people like me who enjoy a more formal approach have to change our preferred cruise line.

Basically, if you think you are dressed appropriately then crew members have to accept your standard of dress. Chic means stylish and fashionable but that is too wide a definition to be of much guidance.

 

OK, let's review.

 

First, Celebrity (as a number of high level staff have confirmed to me) changed the dress code for a number of reasons, none of which have anything to do with "Americans". It has to do with the fact that they are aware that the world is changing. We no longer live in the 20th Century (let alone the 19th that some want to return to) and tastes change. In addition, they noticed a distinct uptick in the number of cruisers combining a cruise with longer "holidays" and knew that it was stupid to expect travelers to drag formal clothing across the world for 2 days use in a 30-60 day holiday.

 

How about we have an agreement. Those who like the new rule for a more casual approach do not chastise and demean those who want to dress formally (oops, that's right, they don't) and those who want to want to dress formally do not chastise and demean those who are following the established dress code (like that will happen).

 

And if you are continuing to whine and "take your business elsewhere" that means one thing and one thing only: You are totally concerned about what I wear since it offends your sensibility. No other reason to care.

[parallax]

I find it a nuisance but I will comply and bring a suit. However, I will comply and bring a suit. One thing that always humors me is that some of the formal outfits are clearly outdated or no longer fit the individual. When we did an Italian cruise with Celebrity a couple years ago, a man was wearing a tux that no longer fit him. He look like the Incredible Hulk; the tux was bursting at the seams.

[Pushka]

 

However, it does make me sad that people on this board complain about the decline in food, service, value.... but seem to feel they can demand more "luxury", but show up in their pajamas to get it.

 

 

You see, the exaggeration of turning up in pyjamas kind of kills some of the value of the points you made.

 

I have not read of anyone complaining of others dressing up if they choose to do so. The complaints come from those who do want to dress up but also require everyone else to do so. It's a one way thing.

Edited January 23, 2017 by Pushka

[markeb]

I doubt if any facts would satisfy you. Celebrity have relaxed the dress code for a reason. I don't know if it is due to customer demand or simply to appeal to the US market. I suspect the latter. What it does mean is that people like me who enjoy a more formal approach have to change our preferred cruise line.

Basically, if you think you are dressed appropriately then crew members have to accept your standard of dress. Chic means stylish and fashionable but that is too wide a definition to be of much guidance.

 

A cruise ship isn't a military dining in; there isn't a uniform of the day that requires "guidance". There are still statements of inappropriate attire, such as the ball cap you seem to be fixated on.

 

Celebrity has made a business decision to adapt to a generally more casual lifestyle, globally, not just the US market. Enjoy your other cruise line. The 19th century is somewhere behind us.

[markeb]

I find it a nuisance but I will comply and bring a suit. However, I will comply and bring a suit. One thing that always humors me is that some of the formal outfits are clearly outdated or no longer fit the individual. When we did an Italian cruise with Celebrity a couple years ago, a man was wearing a tux that no longer fit him. He look like the Incredible Hulk; the tux was bursting at the seams.

 

But the suit is actually not required anymore, so there's no compliance. It's now a choice you've made (which is a perfectly acceptable choice).

[ECCruise]

I find it a nuisance but I will comply and bring a suit. However, I will comply and bring a suit.

 

Comply to what? Celebrity has absolutely NO dress guidelines that require a suit.

[ambrtonj]

Comply to what? Celebrity has absolutely NO dress guidelines that require a suit.

 

 

I can't speak for Celebrity, but why wife does...

 

 

Sent from my iPad using Forums

[lostchild]

I don't like to dress in formal wear because society has changed and formal wear is decidedly of a different era these days. At this point, those who wear true formal wear on a ship are doing so to attend a costume party. People don't even wear suits to church anymore. Times and customs change.

 

My last cruise was my first cruise. They have 2 formal nights. I rented a tux for them. I think about 1 in 20 guys wore a tux. About 50% wear a suit or sport coat. I was just about to put in my order to rent tux for my next cruise and I saw the thread here. :p Now I don't have to. Last year I went to a black tie wedding reception and I rented a tux. I was the only guy in tux other than the wedding party. Most of the guys don't even have a jacket. Everyone asked me.. why do you wear a tux? Trying to be James Bond? No.. the invitation said "Black Tie".... oh well.

[Softball20]

My last cruise was my first cruise. They have 2 formal nights. I rented a tux for them. I think about 1 in 20 guys wore a tux. About 50% wear a suit or sport coat. I was just about to put in my order to rent tux for my next cruise and I saw the thread here. :p Now I don't have to. Last year I went to a black tie wedding reception and I rented a tux. I was the only guy in tux other than the wedding party. Most of the guys don't even have a jacket. Everyone asked me.. why do you wear a tux? Trying to be James Bond? No.. the invitation said "Black Tie".... oh well.

 

As much as I still like the formal nights and will continue to dress to the nines on the evening chic nights, as long as others at least comply with the dress code of the day (no shorts, wife beaters, ball caps, etc.) in the main dining room during dinner, it's all good. What I find sad about the above quoted post is the comment about the wedding you attended. Good for you for following the attire the couple desired for their special day! Sad that others didn't, especially since the invitation specified Black Tie. I can see if one doesn't have a tux many gentlemen would wear the dark suit, but to show up without even a jacket is, IMO, disrespectful. I get that people are generally more casual these days, and in many situations (not all), that's great. At least, however, be respectful of the occasion!

 

I'm done. Back to the discussion at hand......

[Ma Bell]

...meanwhile others maybe have decided that they'll give cruising a go and maybe try Celebrity as (1) they were previously put off by the idea of having to invest in a Tuxedo for 3 nights a year (2) they get the idea that these days dressing up doesn't necessarily have to mean ball gowns and polyester suits (3) they're not that bothered or are even glad that cruising isn't the same as it was way back when - and those people, being new cruisers will either be buying drinks or drink packages because they don't have Elite benefits

 

Celebrity has never required a tuxedo for Formal Nights so I doubt they were put off by that. The truth is people who look nice always will and those who don't....who cares. There really is no reason to even discuss this any more.

Edited January 23, 2017 by Ma Bell

[Fish Lover]

OK, let's review.

 

First, Celebrity (as a number of high level staff have confirmed to me) changed the dress code for a number of reasons, none of which have anything to do with "Americans". It has to do with the fact that they are aware that the world is changing. We no longer live in the 20th Century (let alone the 19th that some want to return to) and tastes change. In addition, they noticed a distinct uptick in the number of cruisers combining a cruise with longer "holidays" and knew that it was stupid to expect travelers to drag formal clothing across the world for 2 days use in a 30-60 day holiday.

 

How about we have an agreement. Those who like the new rule for a more casual approach do not chastise and demean those who want to dress formally (oops, that's right, they don't) and those who want to want to dress formally do not chastise and demean those who are following the established dress code (like that will happen).

 

And if you are continuing to whine and "take your business elsewhere" that means one thing and one thing only: You are totally concerned about what I wear since it offends your sensibility. No other reason to care.

 

Well, this is not correct on a number of fronts. First, both sides of the argument have equally chastised each other. In fact, those that prefer to dress less...just really seem to want to beat the life out of anyone who feels differently.

 

Second, and this is my actual point, the "I don't care how you dress, so don't care how I dress" doesn't fly. You don't like in a vacuum. None of us does. Therefore, how one dresses and behaves directly impacts the other people around them. This is why, in most work places, there is a standard of dress. It impacts the overall atmosphere. This is why some fine restaurants have a jacket and tie requirement. It helps create the fine dining atmosphere. Now, have things changed, yes. But you and everyone else who says to "ignore me and be concerned with yourself" is missing a very important, real, and relative concept.

[NLH Arizona]

Well, this is not correct on a number of fronts. First, both sides of the argument have equally chastised each other. In fact, those that prefer to dress less...just really seem to want to beat the life out of anyone who feels differently.

 

Second, and this is my actual point, the "I don't care how you dress, so don't care how I dress" doesn't fly. You don't like in a vacuum. None of us does. Therefore, how one dresses and behaves directly impacts the other people around them. This is why, in most work places, there is a standard of dress. It impacts the overall atmosphere. This is why some fine restaurants have a jacket and tie requirement. It helps create the fine dining atmosphere. Now, have things changed, yes. But you and everyone else who says to "ignore me and be concerned with yourself" is missing a very important, real, and relative concept.

I partly agree with you. Other's behavior affects everyone, but their dress does not.

 

I strongly disagree with your comment about those that prefer to dress less...just really want to beat the life out of anyone who feels differently. I see, just the opposite. Those that dress up, call folks sloppy and say they ruin their dinner, if they don't dress up. While, those that don't dress up, say wear what you feel comfortable wearing and if that means wearing a tux and gown, dress the way you want to dress.

[Fish Lover]

I partly agree with you. Other's behavior affects everyone, but their dress does not.

 

 

Dress makes a statement, same as behavior makes a statement. It says something about how you feel about where you are and what you are doing. It says something about how you wish to be perceived. In a group of people, general dress makes a statement and sets a tone. When people dress up, they behave better. When people dress for work (either suits or work casual or uniforms), they tend to behave professionally. This is why many work environments have done away with "casual Fridays". And before anyone jumps down my throat, there is a whole different dynamic for entrepreneurial work places.

 

The phrase "a picture speaks more than a thousand words" is relevant. If you gather everyone in the dining room and take a picture, it will lead you to make several broad based assumptions. How fancy is the meal? How important is the occasion? etc... That's simple human nature. We formulate impressions with all five of our senses, not selectively or only based on one thing. How you dress says something, just as loud as your words and behavior do. Collectively, it makes an impression and changes the general atmosphere. If you think how you dress does not have an impact, think again.

 

This is not to say that one way is better than another, just don't delude yourself into thinking that it doesn't make a difference.

 

And.... who knows. Maybe "formal" was changed to "chic" so that the expectations of the meals would be less. I think that is far more likely than some of the other assumptions people have made.

[markeb]

Dress makes a statement, same as behavior makes a statement. It says something about how you feel about where you are and what you are doing. It says something about how you wish to be perceived. In a group of people, general dress makes a statement and sets a tone. When people dress up, they behave better. When people dress for work (either suits or work casual or uniforms), they tend to behave professionally. This is why many work environments have done away with "casual Fridays". And before anyone jumps down my throat, there is a whole different dynamic for entrepreneurial work places.

 

The phrase "a picture speaks more than a thousand words" is relevant. If you gather everyone in the dining room and take a picture, it will lead you to make several broad based assumptions. How fancy is the meal? How important is the occasion? etc... That's simple human nature. We formulate impressions with all five of our senses, not selectively or only based on one thing. How you dress says something, just as loud as your words and behavior do. Collectively, it makes an impression and changes the general atmosphere. If you think how you dress does not have an impact, think again.

 

This is not to say that one way is better than another, just don't delude yourself into thinking that it doesn't make a difference.

 

And.... who knows. Maybe "formal" was changed to "chic" so that the expectations of the meals would be less. I think that is far more likely than some of the other assumptions people have made.

 

For what it's worth, I'd consider the dress code at Per Se or Le Bernadin to be "chic", although neither allow denim, rather than formal. And my expectation of a meal at either is orders of magnitude above my expectation on a cruise ship. Although both my wife and I commented that the feel of Blu on Reflection was remarkably similar to the look of Le Bernadin. I will admit that, even though not required in Blu, I dressed for chic exactly as I would dress at Le Bernadin: dress slacks, button front shirt without a tie, and a jacket. So I guess maybe I am old school to that extent.

 

Quite possibly I've spent far too many evenings miserably hot in mess dress for rubber peas and chicken and no longer relate formal to fine dining..

[ECCruise]

Well, this is not correct on a number of fronts. First, both sides of the argument have equally chastised each other. In fact, those that prefer to dress less...just really seem to want to beat the life out of anyone who feels differently.

 

OK. Examples, please.

 

I can give you dozens of the "you are slobs" approach from the "elite formal crowd" on this thread alone, hundreds on this board.

[Pushka]

The only people beating up others for dressing differently are some of those who want to dress formal and they are the ones who are using exaggeration like dressing in pyjamas. I have not read one post that calls out people who like to dress more formally. It's a one way insult.

[mom says]

The phrase "a picture speaks more than a thousand words" is relevant. If you gather everyone in the dining room and take a picture, it will lead you to make several broad based assumptions..

 

I believe the correct phrase is "a picture is worth a thousand words". And if that picture shows a hundred smiling happy people in casually elegant clothing and a dozen or so in formal wear looking down their noses at everyone else, what assumptions would you make?

 

I try not to judge a book by it's cover. I try not to judge people by their apparel. I will judge people by their behavior. The expressed intolerance to appearance that doesn't fall within YOUR narrow definition of acceptable frankly speaks volumes. And it's not a flattering picture.

[friendlyfifer]

Dress makes a statement, same as behavior makes a statement. It says something about how you feel about where you are and what you are doing. It says something about how you wish to be perceived. In a group of people, general dress makes a statement and sets a tone. When people dress up, they behave better. When people dress for work (either suits or work casual or uniforms), they tend to behave professionally. This is why many work environments have done away with "casual Fridays". And before anyone jumps down my throat, there is a whole different dynamic for entrepreneurial work places.

 

The phrase "a picture speaks more than a thousand words" is relevant. If you gather everyone in the dining room and take a picture, it will lead you to make several broad based assumptions. How fancy is the meal? How important is the occasion? etc... That's simple human nature. We formulate impressions with all five of our senses, not selectively or only based on one thing. How you dress says something, just as loud as your words and behavior do. Collectively, it makes an impression and changes the general atmosphere. If you think how you dress does not have an impact, think again.

 

This is not to say that one way is better than another, just don't delude yourself into thinking that it doesn't make a difference.

 

And.... who knows. Maybe "formal" was changed to "chic" so that the expectations of the meals would be less. I think that is far more likely than some of the other assumptions people have made.

 

Thank you so much for putting your points so eloquently.

[caribill]

.

 

However, it does make me sad that people on this board complain about the decline in food, service, value.... but seem to feel they can demand more "luxury", but show up in their pajamas to get it.

 

Jeans are allowed, and you can purchase pajama jeans at Amazon.com.

 

https://www.amazon.com/s/?ie=UTF8&keywords=pajama+jeans&tag=googhydr-20&index=fashion&hvadid=153704287356&hvpos=1t1&hvnetw=g&hvrand=15153549326529485213&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=e&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9027837&hvtargid=kwd-5503871052&ref=pd_sl_3xh5zj3f1o_e

 

Or directly from http://www.pajamajeans.com/

Edited January 24, 2017 by caribill

[ReneeFLL]

I kind of think the opposite: I see it as a concession to the crowd that didn't want to dress formally.

 

Agreed. It's for those that don't want to bother to dress really nice. We still dress in formal clothes because I think it adds an extra special touch to our vacation.

[parallax]

Dress makes a statement, same as behavior makes a statement. It says something about how you feel about where you are and what you are doing. It says something about how you wish to be perceived. In a group of people, general dress makes a statement and sets a tone. When people dress up, they behave better. When people dress for work (either suits or work casual or uniforms), they tend to behave professionally. This is why many work environments have done away with "casual Fridays". And before anyone jumps down my throat, there is a whole different dynamic for entrepreneurial work places.

 

The phrase "a picture speaks more than a thousand words" is relevant. If you gather everyone in the dining room and take a picture, it will lead you to make several broad based assumptions. How fancy is the meal? How important is the occasion? etc... That's simple human nature. We formulate impressions with all five of our senses, not selectively or only based on one thing. How you dress says something, just as loud as your words and behavior do. Collectively, it makes an impression and changes the general atmosphere. If you think how you dress does not have an impact, think again.

 

This is not to say that one way is better than another, just don't delude yourself into thinking that it doesn't make a difference.

 

And.... who knows. Maybe "formal" was changed to "chic" so that the expectations of the meals would be less. I think that is far more likely than some of the other assumptions people have made.

 

Aren't all businesses supposed to be entrepreneurial? Behavior has nothing to do with how one dresses. I work in the tech industry and some how we remain professional and act in an adult manner, even though we have an informal dress code.

[Charles4515]

Aren't all businesses supposed to be entrepreneurial? Behavior has nothing to do with how one dresses. I work in the tech industry and some how we remain professional and act in an adult manner, even though we have an informal dress code.

 

 

Having 30 years experience dealing with the public I have seen no such correlation. Dressed up people don't behave better than those who dress more casually. Often they behave worse.

[Mynki]

You see, the exaggeration of turning up in pyjamas kind of kills some of the value of the points you made.

 

 

Agree 100%.

 

The exaggerations are silly.

 

The other thing that annoys me about this discussion is the somewhat moronic and idiotic comments about using the airline packing limitations as an excuse. It is a very valid excuse indeed. What these people need to understand is that people are individuals. They need to stop looking through rose tinted glasses and understand that peoples vacations differ from their own and that people may be travelling for considerably longer than the length of their cruise with space at a premium. Rant over. :)