Our EDGE Eden Disaster

[Host Jazzbeau]

4 hours ago, Turtles06 said:

 

With the caveat that I haven't exhaustively researched the question, I don't believe you are correct.  See the following, including the Supreme Court's 2005 ruling in Spector v. NCL, in  which the Court stated, among other things, 

 

"Title III of the ADA prohibits discrimination against the disabled in the full and equal enjoyment of public accommodations, 42 U. S. C. § 12182(a), and public transportation services, § 12184(a). . .Although the statutory definitions of "public accommodation" and "specified public transportation" do not expressly mention cruise ships, there can be no serious doubt that the NCL cruise ships in question fall within both definitions under conventional principles of interpretation."   

 

https://www.irmi.com/articles/expert-commentary/ada-applies-to-foreign-flag-cruise-ships-in-theory

 

https://scholar.google.com/scholar_case?case=542745041558206404&hl=en&as_sdt=6&as_vis=1&oi=scholarr

 

https://www.adatitleiii.com/2015/08/justice-department-applies-ada-title-iii-to-carnivals-cruise-ships-website-and-mobile-app-in-a-landmark-settlement/

 

I reread the links you cite and I disagree [as a lawyer].  The 2005 US Supreme Court case "theoretically resolved the split by holding that foreign cruise lines that dock at U.S. ports must provide better access to handicapped people. Spector v. Norwegian Cruise Line, Ltd., 125 S. Ct. 2169 (2005). However, the various Justices' opinions fell short of specifically stating what kind of modifications must be made to foreign cruise ships to bring them into compliance with the ADA."  Moreover, the majority opinion by "Justice Kennedy also stated to the extent that it creates 'too much' international discord or disruption of a ship's internal affairs, cruise lines need not comply with the ADA under a provision of the statute that calls only for 'readily achievable modifications.' In contrast, Justice Scalia's dissenting opinion, joined by Chief Justice Rehnquist and Justice O'Connor [and Justice Thomas, in part], indicates that they would hold that Title III does not apply to foreign-flagged cruise ships at all because it affects the internal order of foreign-flag cruise ships and exposes them to conflicting international obligations." [emphasis added]

https://www.irmi.com/articles/expert-commentary/ada-applies-to-foreign-flag-cruise-ships-in-theory

 

The 2015 DOJ settlement only required CCL to comply with certain aspects of ADA design standards that were written for accessible hotel rooms [specifically to make 3% of cabins accessible – the current discussion is about making 100% of the Edge ship accessible to passengers in large scooters.]

https://www.adatitleiii.com/2015/08/justice-department-applies-ada-title-iii-to-carnivals-cruise-ships-website-and-mobile-app-in-a-landmark-settlement/

 

Finally, the composition of the US Supreme Court [and the posture of DOJ] have changed recently.  The four justices in the 2015 dissent now represent the majority – so if this comes back for clarification it is not likely to be strengthened – and DOJ is not likely to try to extend this settlement to other cruise lines.

 

The general rule is that domestic legislation only applies within the jurisdiction that passed it – otherwise every country would be able to dictate the laws within every other country.  As an analogy I would point to the US Supreme Court decision [included in every first-year law school curriculum] Bibb v. Navajo Freight Lines, Inc. [aka the 'Illinois Mudflap' case] that states that one US state cannot legislate rules that interfere with interstate commerce – not because of the supremacy of Federal law on interstate commerce but because one state cannot regulate another state.  Since US states are, under our Federal system, equivalent to sovereign countries this rule means the ADA per se does not apply to foreign-flagged ships – and nothing in either the Supreme Court decision or the DOJ settlement states otherwise.

[Turtles06]

3 minutes ago, Host Jazzbeau said:

I reread the links you cite and I disagree [as a lawyer].

My comment was in response to your blanket statement that the ADA does not apply to ocean ships, period. The Supreme Court's decision, particularly the part that I quoted, makes it clear that it does.  (Your quote is from commentary, not the Court's ruling.)  Your comment goes to how much or little a cruise line might have to do to comply with the ADA, but that is different from saying that the ADA does not apply at all.

 

6 minutes ago, Host Jazzbeau said:

Finally, the composition of the US Supreme Court [and the posture of DOJ] have changed recently.  The four justices in the 2015 dissent now represent the majority – so if this comes back for clarification it is not likely to be strengthened – and DOJ is not likely to try to extend this settlement to other cruise lines.

 Whether or not the Court's composition (or the leadership of the DOJ) has changed,  Spector is currently the Court's precedent.  We can all engage in speculation about what the Court might do now if the issue were to reach it again, but that's all it is, speculation, and it doesn't change the current state of the law or the Court's precedent.

 

(I assume, btw, that  you mean the "2005 dissent."  Two of those Justices are no longer on the Court.)

 

 

[Host Jazzbeau]

I quoted from the commentary that was your lead citation.  You have to stand by your own arguments. 

 

Yes, I meant the 2005 dissent [typos happen].  The question isn't which justices are still on the court [3 of the 5 in the majority are gone], but how the current justices are likely to vote.  I don't think it's controversial to say that the Supreme Court is more conservative now, do you disagree?

 

But you seem to have missed an important detail in my post:  I said that the ADA does not apply per se to foreign-flagged cruise ships.  That means that it doesn't apply in its entirety, as it would to a US-flagged ship.  The very mild level of compliance required by the 2015 DOJ settlement is evidence of this.

[MVPinBoynton]

My wife has a scooter, but did not use the elevator or ramp in Eden when we were on for the 2 day cruise.  When we are back on in 3 weeks for a full week, she will scoot around everywhere.  I told her that her scooter should easily be able to use the ramp, which is a much nicer way to go between the 3 floors of Eden.  She is looking forward to seeing more of it.

[Bo1953]

1 hour ago, MVPinBoynton said:

My wife has a scooter, but did not use the elevator or ramp in Eden when we were on for the 2 day cruise.  When we are back on in 3 weeks for a full week, she will scoot around everywhere.  I told her that her scooter should easily be able to use the ramp, which is a much nicer way to go between the 3 floors of Eden.  She is looking forward to seeing more of it.

 

1 hour ago, MVPinBoynton said:

My wife has a scooter, but did not use the elevator or ramp in Eden when we were on for the 2 day cruise.  When we are back on in 3 weeks for a full week, she will scoot around everywhere.  I told her that her scooter should easily be able to use the ramp, which is a much nicer way to go between the 3 floors of Eden.  She is looking forward to seeing more of it.

I, for one, look forward to your DW's experience with access to all areas of the ship upon your return. 

 

I Am sure it will either knock down some perceptions of "no or limited" access to Eden and other areas of the ship or support them. 

 

Bon voyage 

[hcat]

Seems odd to me that barriers for those in wheelchairs might still  be an issue but I think many use scooters on board rather than wheelchairs.

 

As for scooters,   I  believe the one Kearney's spouse had was a rental of some kind.  Maybe  X should not let the  bigger scooters on board if they can't fit or warn folks of the limits.  Some of the non accessible cabins seems fairly tight and the larger scooters are often a bit tight in the regular elevators.

 

Hope it works out.....

 

 

[MVPinBoynton]

5 hours ago, Bo1953 said:

 

I, for one, look forward to your DW's experience with access to all areas of the ship upon your return. 

 

I Am sure it will either knock down some perceptions of "no or limited" access to Eden and other areas of the ship or support them. 

 

Bon voyage 

 

She didn't have any issues on our 2-day; but unlike me, she wasn't trying to get to all of venues.  I will let her know that she has an assignment to explore everything and let us know where she has issues.  It could be a bit more challenging with the ship full rather than the 60% during our two days.

[I&J Cruisers]

I have been trying very hard to keep an open mind about this ship. But the lack of bars on edge is probably the last straw. We sail on January 13. Eden as it’s been described doesn’t appeal to me. It seems that it is the most convenient venue to Blu for a pre dinner drink.  We’ve done about 48 or 49 cruises since 1983. Mostly once a year until we retired 5 yrs ago when we started doing 4-5 a year. If Celebrity doesn’t want our business we’ll go elsewhere. There is no shortage of other options. I’m just annoyed that we booked this so long ago that we had no idea that they were changing the experience so drastically. I will never again book a new ship until I understand what it’s about. 

[boscobeans]

1 hour ago, I&J Cruisers said:

 

I will never again book a new ship until I understand what it’s about. 

 

We booked one of. if not the first cruise that was scheduled for the NEW Quantum of the Seas to the Caribbean from Cape Liberty.  We booked it while on board a Celebrity ship about a year in advance and the Dynamic Dining was not fully understood at the time. All we were told was that there would be more than 4 different restaurants to choose from for dinner and could dine at any time.   When the system was rolled out and we learned that the restaurants never changed their individual menus and the reservation system, especially if sailing with others in a group, became a scheduling project we cancelled the cruise and went with another cruise. 

 

Just like Royal Caribbean, this Edge design may be a flop and hopefully the ships to follow won't bear the same design scars that Dynamic Dining left on the Royal Caribbean ships.

[K12Guy]

10 hours ago, Bo1953 said:

I believe they, Segway, were working on a 'mobility' chair as it were... not sure of its' current status as this was at least five (5) years ago.

 

bon voyage

Unfortunately Segway is now owned by Ninebot and their emphasis, believe it or not, is on electric scooters. Thus, research and development efforts for the Segway PT is NOT a priority. However, it continues to be a viable part of the company, even though the product is frightfully expensive. The scooter product is making the profit needed to keep the company going while the scooters are mass produced in China (I believe) and the Segway PT product continues to be produced in New Hampshire, of all places. I have a vision of a mobility chair from Segway, with a bike saddle and training wheels front and rear to stabilize or park the chair. But, a mobility impaired person may not have the sense of balance to make the machine move or turn without handles.

[K12Guy]

11 minutes ago, boscobeans said:

 

 this Edge design may be a flop and hopefully the ships to follow won't bear the same design scars that Dynamic Dining left on the Royal Caribbean ships.

Interesting thought. I would imagine the developers, engineers, and design teams for the Edge put out what they think is the perfect product. Of course over time they will find things that will make them thump each other's forehead and say, "What the heck were we thinking". As Gen. Eisenhower once said, "Planning is everything and planning is nothing". The product or service rendered can only be improved with application. Edge will be changed and such changes will be implemented with the following Edge class ships, I would expect. I haven't been on Edge but we have friends currently sailing the craft and it will be interesting to see what they have to think about it. They may have the premium beverage package so their memories may be blurred and inaccurate. Time will tell how it all shakes out.

[marylander2]

21 minutes ago, K12Guy said:

 Edge will be changed and such changes will be implemented with the following Edge class ships, I would expect...

It is interesting to read multiple posts that express a firm belief in the Edge changing current stateroom setup, entertainment, etc etc.... All who say this, please recall and let me know how many changes (forget the drastic ones, such as change of the furniture pieces, for one...) were done on ANY of the X ships, based on the cry-outs of the cruisers. I am a devoted (Elite/close to Elite Plus) cruiser with X, and I can't think of anything of that caliber of change on S class ships. 

We write these wishes and we hope that X would read and take them into account and make changes that most here do wish for. I would say - HA HA HA.

They may change immaterial things like Edenists (I am saying immaterial in a sense that they are not flimsy veranda chairs or french doors etc.), but to change the stuff in the staterooms - throughout the whole ship, in over than several hundreds of cabins, or change the design of elevators or access areas - you wish... They will not add more bars, they will not replace chairs and tom-toms and flip-over coffee tables, because they have enough buyers - more so, with crazy-high prices! - for IV and for current itineraries overall... 

Whether these will be adjusted on Apex and the following E-ships - again, it depends on HOW MUCH it would cost to change the design flaw of any kind, because it would be silly to expect that X would fix the flaws on the next ships and leave them on the Edge.

 

 

[FM]

Thank you so much kearney for your feedback … much appreciated.

 

Looking at renting a transportable electric scooter from Scootaround for the cruise … have rented this type of scooter before while at Disneyworld, as it is easily (at least for me) broken down into several pieces and can be thrown into the back of our rental SUV.  So if the bed in the cabin is by the bathroom, I could break the scooter down and park it in the sitting area by the IV.  I too would be livid that the charger was not functioning for the duration of your cruise and would expect some sort of refund for that issue.

 

Several years ago we were looking at Viking Cruises and their first Ocean cruises in the Caribbean.  One caveat though was that they do not accommodate motorized scooters, even though it was the first of several brand new vessels they had commissioned.  A tad surprising considering … thought about renting a transport chair … but in the end we ended choosing a different itinerary / ship.

 

It has been enlightening reading the reviews of others re: the Edge.  Don't know if we were expecting something mind-blowing like the new mega-ships from RCL or something understated or refined like Viking or Holland America … it seems the Edge is somewhat different (have to admit the IV concept was what made us book the Edge for next year).  Took a look at Holland's brand new Nieuw Statendam which had its inaugural sailing this month also … surprised to see we could get a regular Verandah stateroom for about half the price of the IV cabin we have aboard the Edge … tempting …

 

 

 

[boscobeans]

1 hour ago, marylander2 said:

 All who say this, please recall and let me know how many changes (forget the drastic ones, such as change of the furniture pieces, for one...) were done on ANY of the X ships, based on the cry-outs of the cruisers. I am a devoted (Elite/close to Elite Plus) cruiser with X, and I can't think of anything of that caliber of change on S class ships. 

 

 

 

 

On Celebrity's sibling cruise line Royal Caribbean there were MANY changes made after realizing that the original Dynamic Dining was not working.   The newer ships no longer have the remnant broken up dining venues from when DD was changed to smaller venues that now serve from the same changing nightly menu.  They are back to the traditional large MDRs on 2 or 3 levels.  This is a substantial change in design and dining implementation. 

 

Now on RC if you choose traditional early or late seating you will dine in one of the ex-Dynamic dining rooms and MTD in another of the older DD smaller dining areas.  I am sure that providing 3 different dining areas with 3 different motifs, in three different locations is more of a hassle and expense for RC.   That's what was done to correct a problem that was discussed back and forth on Cruise Critic with arguments on both sides just like what is now the back and forth concerning EDGE.

 

 

Edited December 25, 2018 by boscobeans

[kearney]

4 hours ago, FM said:

Thank you so much kearney for your feedback … much appreciated.

 

Looking at renting a transportable electric scooter from Scootaround for the cruise … have rented this type of scooter before while at Disneyworld, as it is easily (at least for me) broken down into several pieces and can be thrown into the back of our rental SUV.  So if the bed in the cabin is by the bathroom, I could break the scooter down and park it in the sitting area by the IV.  I too would be livid that the charger was not functioning for the duration of your cruise and would expect some sort of refund for that issue.

 

Several years ago we were looking at Viking Cruises and their first Ocean cruises in the Caribbean.  One caveat though was that they do not accommodate motorized scooters, even though it was the first of several brand new vessels they had commissioned.  A tad surprising considering … thought about renting a transport chair … but in the end we ended choosing a different itinerary / ship.

 

It has been enlightening reading the reviews of others re: the Edge.  Don't know if we were expecting something mind-blowing like the new mega-ships from RCL or something understated or refined like Viking or Holland America … it seems the Edge is somewhat different (have to admit the IV concept was what made us book the Edge for next year).  Took a look at Holland's brand new Nieuw Statendam which had its inaugural sailing this month also … surprised to see we could get a regular Verandah stateroom for about half the price of the IV cabin we have aboard the Edge … tempting …

 

 

 

I would ask whomever you use... what you are to do if the charger does not work. FYI here is a photo of the scooter in the cabin. You can still get around it. Perhaps it would fit by the mirror...if the table were pushed in... but it worked fine... Oh if you need a scooter... you will not like the 15" seat height of the chaise lounge. I brought 3" 'bed risers'... made an 18" seat height... much more reasonable. 

[kearney]

9 hours ago, hcat said:

Seems odd to me that barriers for those in wheelchairs might still  be an issue but I think many use scooters on board rather than wheelchairs.

 

As for scooters,   I  believe the one Kearney's spouse had was a rental of some kind.  Maybe  X should not let the  bigger scooters on board if they can't fit or warn folks of the limits.  Some of the non accessible cabins seems fairly tight and the larger scooters are often a bit tight in the regular elevators.

 

Hope it works out.....

 

 

The scooter we had was their 'medium' size. Their standard scooter (up to 249lb) is 41" long vs ours at 45"... width of std 21'...ours 22'. they also offer a larger scooter which requires an accessible cabin. Perhaps the 41' inch could handle the Eden elevator.... however... anyone traveling with that person would have to crawl over to get out of the way or be told to stand on the other side of the controls to allow room to maneuver.

[hcat]

Surprised that could not fit into the EDEN elevator.

 

Great idea about the bed risers  but we already have so many extra items to pack...bottled water,  straws,  small dining tray for tom tom to expand eating options.,  magnetic hooks, some thing to hang from the bifolds in lieu of curtains ( working on ideas..)  Camping at Sea!

[kearney]

On 12/24/2018 at 2:58 PM, hcat said:

Kearny

Welcome Back..

As an original EDGIE, hope you will post a full review...

Likes, dislikes etc.  Hope  the cabin worked out abd that overall you enjoyed your much anticipated cruise!

I am trying to organize my thoughts. DH actually set up the CC account and will likely post his review.... will probably differ some from mine. He prefers regular veranda... I like the IV..  I enjoyed the ship... however, upon reflection.... we did not find areas like Eden or theater particularly accessible. Not that you couldn't get there but more the lack of comfortable seating. I did not want DH stuck sitting in a scooter... so we spent a lot of time in the cafe, Martini Bar, Ocean View Cafe and touring around. Given that I am not sure Edge is worth the premium for us. Now for others... it will be a different story. We had a hell trip getting off the ship. I would not purchase an expensive item on board until the customs process has been figured out. It is likely a customs problem and not a Celebrity issue... but it took us nearly 2 hours to get from Raw on 5 to the bus to the airport. And they took our seapass cards... which I am a bit ticked off about. But I will say the ship is beautiful the staff fabulous... the restaurants are quite nice and the food and service excellent... with a few minor exceptions. But when you spend more than double your usual fare... you want to be able to enjoy the whole ship....like we have been able to on S class. Now it may be us... since this is only the second time we have used a scooter. But even on other ships without the scooter... DH can not do stairs... so the lack of issues with those ships suggests that we would not have had issues with a scooter... I just hope they don't screw that up on the remodel.

[kearney]

7 minutes ago, hcat said:

Surprised that could not fit into the EDEN elevator.

 

Great idea about the bed risers  but we already have so many extra items to pack...bottled water,  straws,  small dining tray for tom tom to expand eating options.,  magnetic hooks, some thing to hang from the bifolds in lieu of curtains ( working on ideas..)  Camping at Sea!

The problem is that the scooter fits into the elevator...when you drive straight into it from deck 6. However, on deck 5 you need to make a sharp left turn. I got in next to the controls and when we got to 5 there was no way to turn. I think that even the smaller scooter would have had issues if someone was standing where I was.... and I think it would take time to do a K turn. One issue is that the door on 5 does not appear to open completely which would also make it difficult...now if the hinge were located on the other side... that would make it a turn easier. Anyway.... it was more annoying than anything... we simply went back to 6 and rode down. What bothered me more was the lack of seating that was appropriate. It is kinda stressful to me to have to scout out various areas of the ship. Now the hallways were great.... so was Ocean View Cafe and outside of the restaurants... plenty of places to park. There must have been a good 25 or more scooters on board.

[ecslady]

Kearney- I just read they took your seapass cards.   Just yours or everybody's???