P&O, Cunard +all Carnival brands changing Amsterdam to Ijmuiden: how to win your case

[Lizzie53]

Just for information P & O  have confirmed that the drop off and pick up point for the shuttle buses for the 22nd March cruise have been changed to De Ruijterkade-Oost which is located near to Amsterdam’s Central Station.

 

[P-L-B]

6 minutes ago, Lizzie53 said:

Just for information P & O  have confirmed that the drop off and pick up point for the shuttle buses for the 22nd March cruise have been changed to De Ruijterkade-Oost which is located near to Amsterdam’s Central Station.

 

Excellent location.

Lets hope they continue to use it.

[Harry Peterson]

31 minutes ago, johnrp said:

i have also complained direct to ABTA and their response is word for word the same, seems very strange?

I’d guess that all the responses will be much the same. They’ll have copied and pasted some wording given to them by P&O, their member company.

 

If anyone ever thought that ABTA acts for consumers, or indeed independently, this should change their minds.

 

It changes nothing, though, because ABTA was never likely to be relevant in a compensation claim. Those claims, in the event that P&O want to tough it out, will go in due course through the county court.

[mercury7289]

No surprise!!

 

Docco you thought they would! read your own posts!

 

 

 

 

[majortom10]

2 hours ago, docco said:

I’d guess that all the responses will be much the same. They’ll have copied and pasted some wording given to them by P&O, their member company.

 

If anyone ever thought that ABTA acts for consumers, or indeed independently, this should change their minds.

 

It changes nothing, though, because ABTA was never likely to be relevant in a compensation claim. Those claims, in the event that P&O want to tough it out, will go in due course through the county court.

Think you are dreaming mate if it does go to court if you think any judge is going to go against P&O and there legal advisors and have the backing of ABTA  and you are going to win.

 

By the way ABTA do not always agree with travel companies. When I contacted them with the issue I had with P&O when they cut short  a cruise by 1 night and tried to reimburse in OBC instead of cash and saying changing every day the ports we called at during the cruise was not a significant change ABTA agreed with me and said I had paid my cruise fare in cash as per contract then P&O should do the same and changing every port was a significant change. It was after ABTA made these comments that P&O climbed down and changed their attitude.

[Harry Peterson]

31 minutes ago, majortom10 said:

Think you are dreaming mate if it does go to court if you think any judge is going to go against P&O and there legal advisors and have the backing of ABTA  and you are going to win.

Judges make decisions on the basis of the law - in this case contract law - not on the basis of what the defendant and ABTA might argue.  ABTA are simply repeating P&O's claims - that has no legal effect whatever.

[majortom10]

Just now, docco said:

Judges make decisions on the basis of the law - in this case contract law - not on the basis of what the defendant and ABTA might argue.  ABTA are simply repeating P&O's claims - that has no legal effect whatever.

The defendant i.e P&O and ABTA will have lawyers with far more knowledge than you or I will ever have and they know where they stand in a court of law. ABTA are not repeating P&O claims they have come to same agreement which you dont like but are totally independent. I fear that you will be throwing good money down the drain whatever the costs.

[Harry Peterson]

13 minutes ago, majortom10 said:

The defendant i.e P&O and ABTA will have lawyers with far more knowledge than you or I will ever have and they know where they stand in a court of law. ABTA are not repeating P&O claims they have come to same agreement which you dont like but are totally independent. I fear that you will be throwing good money down the drain whatever the costs.

You have your view, and I mine.  We'll just have to agree to differ, won't we. 

 

What amounts to a 'significant alteration' is a matter of mixed fact and law, and just because P&O claim it not to be significant doesn't automatically make it so.  That's what courts are for, and the small claims (as was) procedure makes it very easy and cheap for someone with knowledge of the law to pursue claims like this.

[pete14]

1 hour ago, docco said:

You have your view, and I mine.  We'll just have to agree to differ, won't we. 

 

What amounts to a 'significant alteration' is a matter of mixed fact and law, and just because P&O claim it not to be significant doesn't automatically make it so.  That's what courts are for, and the small claims (as was) procedure makes it very easy and cheap for someone with knowledge of the law to pursue claims like this.

 

Before you consider legal action in small claims court, please look at my posts 161 and 165. For a non legal expert it is certainly not very easy and the cost, although not substantial, is not cheap. Perhaps you should leave it to docco to lead the way although, as he has not indicated his legal credentials and experience, this may be counter productive.

[terrierjohn]

1 hour ago, docco said:

You have your view, and I mine.  We'll just have to agree to differ, won't we. 

 

What amounts to a 'significant alteration' is a matter of mixed fact and law, and just because P&O claim it not to be significant doesn't automatically make it so.  That's what courts are for, and the small claims (as was) procedure makes it very easy and cheap for someone with knowledge of the law to pursue claims like this.

The problem you have Docco is that even if you do win, the amount of compensation for having one port changed and substituted with another, from which you will have a free shuttle to the same destination, will be very small indeed and certainly much less than the costs you will incur and might have to pay yourself if you lose; even despite the loss of convenience of being able to walk on and off the ship.

One final point, presumably the contract law will take into account P&O's T&Cs, which are heavily stacked against you.

However I do agree that this is just one of many instances of P&O management showing their contempt for their passengers, but we all know just what poor customer service they regularly display, it's just that this is a poor case on which to fight them.

[hansol1966]

We are travelling on the Azura 22nd March 4 night mini cruise to Amsterdam  with our disabled son with travelling problems....As advertised this cruise was perfect ..close to Amsterdam central...lovely walk or push to the popular areas for us...Not to be..We are soon to be the guinea pigs for IJmuiden P&O coach transfers...2000+ passengers travelling to Amsterdam with a 2 hour turnaround what will be the waiting time as it is the only port of call...how many coaches at 60 people each..40...well see....old people..disabled people..what if it’s raining...we have decided not to get of the ship with our son as the transport round trip will be to much..Docking centrally was doable..but not 2 hour round trip transfers...

[AmazedByCruising]

20 minutes ago, hansol1966 said:

We are travelling on the Azura 22nd March 4 night mini cruise to Amsterdam  with our disabled son with travelling problems....As advertised this cruise was perfect ..close to Amsterdam central...lovely walk or push to the popular areas for us...Not to be..We are soon to be the guinea pigs for IJmuiden P&O coach transfers...2000+ passengers travelling to Amsterdam with a 2 hour turnaround what will be the waiting time as it is the only port of call...how many coaches at 60 people each..40...well see....old people..disabled people..what if it’s raining...we have decided not to get of the ship with our son as the transport round trip will be to much..Docking centrally was doable..but not 2 hour round trip transfers...

 

IJmuiden would be a sea day without the sea as it has nothing. Anyway, walking from the passenger terminal to Dam Square is about 25 minutes, it's not that close. By car it's a 35 minute trip from IJmuiden to Dam Square. A taxi, while expensive in Holland, would bring you right where you want to be. Would that be an option?

 

[Eglesbrech]

46 minutes ago, hansol1966 said:

We are travelling on the Azura 22nd March 4 night mini cruise to Amsterdam  with our disabled son with travelling problems....As advertised this cruise was perfect ..close to Amsterdam central...lovely walk or push to the popular areas for us...Not to be..We are soon to be the guinea pigs for IJmuiden P&O coach transfers...2000+ passengers travelling to Amsterdam with a 2 hour turnaround what will be the waiting time as it is the only port of call...how many coaches at 60 people each..40...well see....old people..disabled people..what if it’s raining...we have decided not to get of the ship with our son as the transport round trip will be to much..Docking centrally was doable..but not 2 hour round trip transfers...

 

It may be a bit of a long shot but could you try requesting that P&O make a reasonable adjustment under the disability provisions contained within the Equality Act 2010 (indirect disability discrimination -  when an organisation puts a rule or a policy or a way of doing things in place which has a worse impact on someone with a protected characteristic than someone without one). In this case other passengers may not want to have to trail into Amsterdam on a shuttle but they are capable of doing so. From what you are saying your son is not now able to enjoy that aspect of the holiday.

 

If it would suit your sons needs then the adjustment could be for example to provide you with separate transportation rather than having queuing, give you OBC to make up for the loss of enjoyment or even to let you cancel (though this is less likely).

 

They may not accept this as you will be out with the UK but you do however have a contract within the juristIction of English Law. As I say a long shot but perhaps worth one phone call.

[Harry Peterson]

7 hours ago, terrierjohn said:

The problem you have Docco is that even if you do win, the amount of compensation for having one port changed and substituted with another, from which you will have a free shuttle to the same destination, will be very small indeed and certainly much less than the costs you will incur and might have to pay yourself if you lose; even despite the loss of convenience of being able to walk on and off the ship.

One final point, presumably the contract law will take into account P&O's T&Cs, which are heavily stacked against you.

However I do agree that this is just one of many instances of P&O management showing their contempt for their passengers, but we all know just what poor customer service they regularly display, it's just that this is a poor case on which to fight them.

I take your point entirely, and the level of compensation will depend on how big a part Amsterdam itself plays in the overall cruise.  If it were one port day out of eight, for example, the level of inconvenience would be relatively small.  Two days out of four, however, is a different thing entirely.  And it isn't just the change of port - it's the absolutely different situation of being able to walk into the centre of the city, as against having to queue both ways for buses, making it impossible in practical terms, to return to the ship for a rest, for example.

 

The contract is littered with terms and conditions, certainly, as they always are.  For the following reasons, though, my view is that they don't protect P&O in this particular situation:

 

Bear in mind that although P&O will tell you that they have the right to do this under their terms and conditions, that's almost certainly not the case (though ultimately that will be for ABTA, and primarily the courts, to decide.  Take a close look at the T&C and you'll find this at clause 40:

 

40. Whilst P&O Cruises will do its best not to cancel or to make any significant alteration after a booking has been made, it shall nevertheless be entitled at any time prior to departure to cancel the Contract or to change and/or curtail the Package where this reasonably becomes necessary

 

'Significant alteration' means 'major changes to your package' - that's defined at Clause 1.

 

P&O take the line that this isn't a significant alteration (major change to your package) - that will depend on how big a part of the package Amsterdam plays.  The greater the part, the greater the change.

 

Note too that P&O must 'do its best not to cancel or to make any significant alteration after a booking has been made' and that a change can be made only 'where this reasonably becomes necessary'.

 

Very clearly P&O is not doing 'its best' not to make this 'significant alteration' - far from it, in fact: it's actually doing completely the opposite of that, and for these reasons my view is that the County Court will find very clearly against them when/if it goes to court.  The compensation will depend on the particular facts of each affected cruise, and what actually happens on that cruise, but the sums could be substantial.

 

And I haven't even mentioned the Consumer Rights Act 2015, which protects consumers against the use of unfair terms and conditions!

[Ataraxia]

The fact that there are restrictions on the locks to gain access to Amsterdam seems to have gone right over your head - this is a lose lose situation.

[Harry Peterson]

24 minutes ago, Ataraxia said:

The fact that there are restrictions on the locks to gain access to Amsterdam seems to have gone right over your head - this is a lose lose situation.

I've seen nothing to support that suggestion - from P&O or from anywhere else.  Nothing in these recent news reports either:

https://www.cruisecritic.co.uk/news/3770/

 

https://www.cruisecritic.co.uk/news/3824/

[Ataraxia]

Take your blinkers off.

https://www.portofamsterdam.com/en/port-amsterdam/new-large-sea-lock

[Harry Peterson]

6 minutes ago, Ataraxia said:

Take your blinkers off.

https://www.portofamsterdam.com/en/port-amsterdam/new-large-sea-lock

And the evidence that this has anything to do with the P&O port change?  Particularly when other equally large ships from different companies are carrying on as usual?

[rolandvanvelzen]

12 hours ago, AmazedByCruising said:

 

IJmuiden would be a sea day without the sea as it has nothing. Anyway, walking from the passenger terminal to Dam Square is about 25 minutes, it's not that close. By car it's a 35 minute trip from IJmuiden to Dam Square. A taxi, while expensive in Holland, would bring you right where you want to be. Would that be an option?

 

 

For a slightly more nuanced vision of the port of IJmuiden, I would like to share the following information with you.

 

IJmuiden has one of the widest beaches in The Netherlands, which is at walking distance from the cruise terminal. It is a kite surfing hot spot with a lot of nice beach restaurants.

 

Within close distance there is the ancient castle of Brederode (http://www.ruinevanbrederode.nl/?page_id=2998).

 

The beach and dunes area is perfect for hiking and biking.

 

You can make a cruise in the port and between the breakwaters.

 

You can visit SHIP (lock and port information point), where are exhibitions about the existing lock, the construction of the new lock (which will be the biggest lock in the world), and the northsea canal region. https://www.portofamsterdam.com/en/news-item/ship-centre-ijmuiden-sea-lock-now-open-public

 

For everything to do in the vicinity of IJmuiden you can have a look at https://www.vvvijmuidenaanzee.nl/en and http://www.cruiseportijmuiden.com/

 

I have to agree. IJmuiden has nothing 😉

 

Although I completely understand everyone who is disappointed in the change from Amsterdam to IJmuiden, I hope that everyone will enjoy the IJmuiden harbor anyway. The cruise terminal and the port will do their utmost to make your stay in IJmuiden a success.

 

 

Edited March 8, 2019 by rolandvanvelzen

[P-L-B]

24 minutes ago, rolandvanvelzen said:

 

For a slightly more nuanced vision of the port of IJmuiden, I would like to share the following information with you.

 

IJmuiden has one of the widest beaches in The Netherlands, which is at walking distance from the cruise terminal. It is a kite surfing hot spot with a lot of nice beach restaurants.

 

Within close distance there is the ancient castle of Brederode (http://www.ruinevanbrederode.nl/?page_id=2998).

 

The beach and dunes area is perfect for hiking and biking.

 

You can make a cruise in the port and between the breakwaters.

 

You can visit SHIP (lock and port information point), where are exhibitions about the existing lock, the construction of the new lock (which will be the biggest lock in the world), and the northsea canal region. https://www.portofamsterdam.com/en/news-item/ship-centre-ijmuiden-sea-lock-now-open-public

 

For everything to do in the vicinity of IJmuiden you can have a look at https://www.vvvijmuidenaanzee.nl/en and http://www.cruiseportijmuiden.com/

 

I have to agree. IJmuiden has nothing 😉

 

Although I completely understand everyone who is disappointed in the change from Amsterdam to IJmuiden, I hope that everyone will enjoy the IJmuiden harbor anyway. The cruise terminal and the port will do their utmost to make your stay in IJmuiden a success.

 

 

Thanks for your informative and interesting post and enlightening us all on the attractions re IJmuiden.

[happy v]

21 hours ago, hansol1966 said:

We are travelling on the Azura 22nd March 4 night mini cruise to Amsterdam  with our disabled son with travelling problems....As advertised this cruise was perfect ..close to Amsterdam central...lovely walk or push to the popular areas for us...Not to be..We are soon to be the guinea pigs for IJmuiden P&O coach transfers...2000+ passengers travelling to Amsterdam with a 2 hour turnaround what will be the waiting time as it is the only port of call...how many coaches at 60 people each..40...well see....old people..disabled people..what if it’s raining...we have decided not to get of the ship with our son as the transport round trip will be to much..Docking centrally was doable..but not 2 hour round trip transfers...

I didn't want to become involved in this thread but I think you are being misled by negative postings. As we will be going I have checked timings for myself. The bus ride is 30 miles, 30 minutes, in very busy traffic 40 minutes.

I have never had to wait 1 hour for a P&O shuttle. Soon after docking will be the busiest but if the queue is longer than 20 minutes an announcement will be made on the ship and you can wait on board until it clears. Returning to the ship the coaches leave when full or another coach arrives so you don't have to stand around for long

Wheelchair passengers are given priority on the coach.

Please don't be put off I'm sure you will still enjoy your cruise. Just avoid the busiest times.

[Dwalkerdave]

29 minutes ago, happy v said:

I didn't want to become involved in this thread but I think you are being misled by negative postings. As we will be going I have checked timings for myself. The bus ride is 30 miles, 30 minutes, in very busy traffic 40 minutes.

I have never had to wait 1 hour for a P&O shuttle. Soon after docking will be the busiest but if the queue is longer than 20 minutes an announcement will be made on the ship and you can wait on board until it clears. Returning to the ship the coaches leave when full or another coach arrives so you don't have to stand around for long

Wheelchair passengers are given priority on the coach.

Please don't be put off I'm sure you will still enjoy your cruise. Just avoid the busiest times.

30 miles in 39/40 minutes into Amsterdam !!!! Have you ever been ? Not a chance it will be an hour plus especially between 8-10 and 3-5. 

Also how many times will you go back after 20 minute wait advised and lose your place, you coukd be waiting hours, similar to a tender port, sometimes you can wait 2-3 hours at Guernsey.

[hansol1966]

Thankyou for replying to my post happy v ...my default is would all of us (disabled, elderly, walking problems) plus able bodied passengers realise the difference between Ijmuiden docks ..shuttle buses as against the original destination Amsterdam cruise terminal where I have docked twice before....Good access to Central Amsterdam..walking or a short and cheap taxi ride to and fro...1 MILE...as against 20 miles..anytime...a cheap short taxi ride whenever you want  for all passengers as well.

lets vote Ijmuiden docks or Amsterdam cruise terminal...

Edited March 8, 2019 by hansol1966

[DamianG]

I've just received a mini brochure for cruises May 2019 to April 2021 and on page 6 they are still advertising cruises quoting Amsterdam as an overnight stay with no mention of Ijmuiden. We are not affected by any of this and are big fans of P&O but I have to say I find all of this very disingenuous by them / Carnival and I wish all those seeking resolution the best of luck.

[Harry Peterson]

11 minutes ago, DamianG said:

I've just received a mini brochure for cruises May 2019 to April 2021 and on page 6 they are still advertising cruises quoting Amsterdam as an overnight stay with no mention of Ijmuiden. We are not affected by any of this and are big fans of P&O but I have to say I find all of this very disingenuous by them / Carnival and I wish all those seeking resolution the best of luck.

It’s Ijmuiden now, of course. Yet more deceit from this untrustworthy company.