Allure - Our room was raided and tossed!

[springfire]

4 minutes ago, mayleeman said:

Broad and even specific questions are totally legitimate. Not only do they provide simple background information, they also can give the agents a chance to assess whether people are acting unduly nervous or evasive, or even if the answers seem oddly rehearsed (agents are aware most people will likely be nervous).  Sometimes people who have something to hide start talking themselves into all types of trouble. And not all documents are legit, so casual questions can reveal discrepancies.

Remember as a US citizen, you are only required to only answer the basic customs questions, you do not have to answer any other questions.   If you are a non US citizen you must answer all questions or Customs could deny you entry into the US.

[LoveTheSoul]

On 3/30/2019 at 10:58 AM, sparks1093 said:

If you did nothing wrong than you have no reason at all to feel humiliated.

One thing to be randomly searched, another for them to bring a search dog in and have you stand in your robe underguard in the hallway. Yes, I understand how they would have felt humiliated.

[sparks1093]

Just now, LoveTheSoul said:

One thing to be randomly searched, another for them to bring a search dog in and have you stand in your robe underguard in the hallway. Yes, I understand how they would have felt humiliated.

I might have felt humiliated if I were made to stand in the hallway in my underwear but in a bathrobe, nope, I wouldn't feel humiliated at all (I do understand that the OP did and feel sorry that he did, but he had no need to, which is all I was saying).

[ScottVV]

On ‎3‎/‎30‎/‎2019 at 11:23 PM, BND said:

I know how it works. I'll leave it at that.

 

Me too..  NISPOM all the way - love it or not....

[Big_G]

1 hour ago, Trickie Dickie said:

They asked questions like where we live, careers and our relationship to each other. Things like that.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

Even though I’m former law enforcement I understand your frustration but also believe they were just doing their job. Having said that, sometimes a little courtesy from both sides goes a long way in these stressful situations. Sounds like you handled it well.

[Aquahound]

53 minutes ago, springfire said:

Remember as a US citizen, you are only required to only answer the basic customs questions, you do not have to answer any other questions.   If you are a non US citizen you must answer all questions or Customs could deny you entry into the US.

 

While it is true that US citizens cannot be denied entry, what exactly are basic Customs questions?  How would a US citizen know what to answer and what not?  I'd be willing to bet the average person does not know you don't have a right to privacy on your phone or computers during a Customs inspection.  I'd be willing to bet the average person does not know that the slightest act of suspicion, like not answering questions for example, could lead to a cavity search and it would be totally legal.  

 

The point to which I'm getting is it is terrible advice to tell US citizens to only answer what they think are basic questions. That is, unless they particularly enjoy cavity searches and potential criminal obstruction charges.  

Edited April 1, 2019 by Aquahound

[dreadpirate3]

OP, I'm so sorry you went through this.

 

Other posters, I've only been on 6 cruises, and have seen CBP officers with a dog on 3 of those on the ship during debarkation. I've seen officers with dogs in every port, so this is hardly something new.

[ShillyShally]

3 minutes ago, Aquahound said:

 

While it is true that US citizens cannot be denied entry, what exactly are basic Customs questions?  How would a US citizen know what to answer and what not?  I'd be willing to bet the average person does not know you don't have a right to privacy on your phone or computers during a Customs inspection.  I'd be willing to bet the average person does not know that the slightest act of suspicion, like not answering questions for example, could lead to a cavity search and it would be totally legal.  

 

The point to which I'm getting is it is terrible advice to tell US citizens to only answer what they think are basic questions. That is, unless they particularly enjoy cavity searches and potential criminal obstruction charges.  

Exactly - while one may not need to answer all questions, not answering simple questions just because you don't have to may just increase the time and pressure spent on your experience.  Law enforcement is not out to make one's life more difficult, but they have jobs to do and if we make them more difficult they are apt to respond in kind.  

[Pratique]

19 minutes ago, Aquahound said:

 I'd be willing to bet the average person does not know that the slightest act of suspicion, like not answering questions for example, could lead to a cavity search and it would be totally legal. 

They still need reasonable suspicion. United States v. Montoya De Hernandez, 473 U.S. 531 (1985)

 

"The detention of a traveler at the border, beyond the scope of a routine customs search and inspection, is justified at its inception if customs agents, considering all the facts surrounding the traveler and her trip, reasonably suspect that the traveler is smuggling contraband in her alimentary canal; here, the facts, and their rational inferences, known to the customs officials clearly supported a reasonable suspicion that respondent was an alimentary canal smuggler."

 

https://caselaw.findlaw.com/us-supreme-court/473/531.html

[HBE4]

1 hour ago, Big_G said:

 

Even though I’m former law enforcement I understand your frustration but also believe they were just doing their job. Having said that, sometimes a little courtesy from both sides goes a long way in these stressful situations. Sounds like you handled it well.

 

100% agreed. Nobody likes to be made to feel like a criminal, especially when on vacation.  It is unnerving.

 

Going back to the 1st post, the OP did say the officers were respectful and that now he had a great story to tell.  Not sure why some others are being dramatic.

Edited April 1, 2019 by HBE4

[sparks1093]

26 minutes ago, Aquahound said:

 

While it is true that US citizens cannot be denied entry, what exactly are basic Customs questions?  How would a US citizen know what to answer and what not?  I'd be willing to bet the average person does not know you don't have a right to privacy on your phone or computers during a Customs inspection.  I'd be willing to bet the average person does not know that the slightest act of suspicion, like not answering questions for example, could lead to a cavity search and it would be totally legal.  

 

The point to which I'm getting is it is terrible advice to tell US citizens to only answer what they think are basic questions. That is, unless they particularly enjoy cavity searches and potential criminal obstruction charges.  

I had to pick my future former daughter in law (long, long story) in Montreal. She had flown from there to Turkey to meet with her fiance (did I mention long story?). We were coming through the check point and when the CBP officer asked me where I was coming from I told her, the airport where I picked her up (pointing to ffdil). She leaned down so she could see the passenger seat and asked, "where did you arrive in Montreal from". She said Turkey. CBP officer, "Why did you go to Turkey?" to which she answered "Personal reasons." I could see the CBP officer's body language change and I knew what was coming. FFDIL spent 50 minutes or so in secondary inspection answering many more questions. They did stop short of the cavity search though.

[Aquahound]

6 minutes ago, Pratique said:

They still need reasonable suspicion. United States v. Montoya De Hernandez, 473 U.S. 531 (1985)

 

 

Reasonable Suspicion is a very low burden of proof.  Uncooperative persons coupled with a long established history of guilty parties evading questions meets the standard.  

[Pratique]

Just now, Aquahound said:

 

Reasonable Suspicion is a very low burden of proof.  Uncooperative persons coupled with a long established history of guilty parties evading questions meets the standard.  

Read the case and the facts surrounding her detention. It was much more than not answering questions.

[chengkp75]

6 minutes ago, Pratique said:

They still need reasonable suspicion. United States v. Montoya De Hernandez, 473 U.S. 531 (1985)

 

"The detention of a traveler at the border, beyond the scope of a routine customs search and inspection, is justified at its inception if customs agents, considering all the facts surrounding the traveler and her trip, reasonably suspect that the traveler is smuggling contraband in her alimentary canal; here, the facts, and their rational inferences, known to the customs officials clearly supported a reasonable suspicion that respondent was an alimentary canal smuggler."

 

https://caselaw.findlaw.com/us-supreme-court/473/531.html

Now, again, what is your definition (and what is CBP's definition) of detention.  The person detained in the case you cited was detained 16 hours before they sought a court order.  That is different from 45 minutes while the agents are actively searching or questioning, don't you think?  Note that in the findings, it is mentioned that the agents asked "general questions concerning herself" (perhaps residence, occupation, sound familiar) and these questions were not held to violate her 4th amendment rights, just the detention.

[springfire]

1 minute ago, Aquahound said:

 

While it is true that US citizens cannot be denied entry, what exactly are basic Customs questions?  How would a US citizen know what to answer and what not?  I'd be willing to bet the average person does not know you don't have a right to privacy on your phone or computers during a Customs inspection.  I'd be willing willing to bet the average person does not know that the slightest act of suspicion, like not answering questions for example, could lead to a cavity search and it would be totally legal.  

 

The point to which I'm getting is it is terrible advice to tell US citizens to only answer what they think are basic questions. That is, unless they particularly enjoy cavity searches and potential criminal obstruction charges.  

It is never terrible advice to let US citizens know what their rights are.  It is important that we all know our rights and use them when needed.   Once you have confirmed with documents that you are a US citizen you do not need answer any more questions from customs.  While they can search you and your luggage, you are not required to give them passwords to your phone or computer.   They can not keep those items unless they have reasonable suspicion that you have done something wrong.   You can request an attorney if you feel the need.   If they want to do a strip search they need reasonable suspicion and needs to be done in a private area.   Now I have always been able to speak with custom agents and I will speak with them as long as I am treated right.   I am not here to tell people not to speak with Customs, I just think it's important to know what your rights are.  All Custom Agents will not treat you the same.  As I have worked on ships, airports and at several ports, I am quite familiar with customs.

 

Any Custom Agent who tells me to answer their questions or they will give me a cavity search and potential criminal obstruction charge is when you must request their supervisor and an attorney.   Those sound like intimidation tactics from dirty law enforcement. 

[LoveTheSoul]

2 hours ago, Trickie Dickie said:

They asked questions like where we live, careers and our relationship to each other. Things like that.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Years ago, I was traveling with an ex-boyfriend (a Marine) when crossing the border from New York to Canada (going to see Niagara Falls), we were stopped and asked questions such as this. Where we were from, our occupation, why we were travelling to Canada. I'm sure it was random, as when we crossed back to the US, we weren't even stopped.  Either random, or heavily guarded Canadian borders and less guarded in the US. 😐

Edited April 1, 2019 by LoveTheSoul

[mayleeman]

Keeping someone nearby while their room or baggage are searched is not a detention in the meaning of the "resonable suspicion" cases. It is the only sensible thing for agents to do for their safety and everyone nearby. If you try to leave, however, you absolutely will trigger immediate reasonable suspicion that you are trying to distance yourself from something either illegal or unsafe. 

 

Citizens definitely should know their rights, but they should not confuse inconvenience with the abuses of a police state.

[Pratique]

27 minutes ago, chengkp75 said:

Now, again, what is your definition (and what is CBP's definition) of detention.  The person detained in the case you cited was detained 16 hours before they sought a court order.  That is different from 45 minutes while the agents are actively searching or questioning, don't you think?  Note that in the findings, it is mentioned that the agents asked "general questions concerning herself" (perhaps residence, occupation, sound familiar) and these questions were not held to violate her 4th amendment rights, just the detention.

First of all, I'm not comparing the OP's situation to this case. Completely different circumstances. Second, this quote from the Court is useful: "The detention of a traveler at the border, beyond the scope of a routine customs search and inspection...." I think people are confusing routine detention with further detention? In the cited case the woman was sent to secondary screening based on routine questions about where she was coming from, what she was carrying, where she was going and why, and her recent travel patterns. Her further detention effectively began after they did the patdown and search because at that point they had no intention of letting her continue without further screening, although they gave her the option to return to Columbia on the next flight (she was not a U.S. citizen).

 

This is the statutory basis:

19 USC 482(a).

 

It's conceivable that someone could be detained for evading questions alone, but generally the courts have established that there needs to be more than just that, such as other information that raises suspicion.

[El Abuelo]

33 minutes ago, springfire said:

It is never terrible advice to let US citizens know what their rights are.  It is important that we all know our rights and use them when needed.   Once you have confirmed with documents that you are a US citizen you do not need answer any more questions from customs.  While they can search you and your luggage, you are not required to give them passwords to your phone or computer.   They can not keep those items unless they have reasonable suspicion that you have done something wrong.   You can request an attorney if you feel the need.   If they want to do a strip search they need reasonable suspicion and needs to be done in a private area.   Now I have always been able to speak with custom agents and I will speak with them as long as I am treated right.   I am not here to tell people not to speak with Customs, I just think it's important to know what your rights are.  All Custom Agents will not treat you the same.  As I have worked on ships, airports and at several ports, I am quite familiar with customs.

 

Any Custom Agent who tells me to answer their questions or they will give me a cavity search and potential criminal obstruction charge is when you must request their supervisor and an attorney.   Those sound like intimidation tactics from dirty law enforcement. 

Sorry, but CBP can inspect the contents of your electronic devices, and retain them for subsequent inspection if you do not cooperate. 

 

They can also ask all the questions they want and search your person. No need for reasonable suspicion when you are in the customs zone.

Edited April 1, 2019 by El Abuelo

[nelblu]

24 minutes ago, LoveTheSoul said:

Years ago, I was traveling with an ex-boyfriend (a Marine) when crossing the border from New York to Canada (going to see Niagara Falls), we were stopped and asked questions such as this. Where we were from, our occupation, why we were travelling to Canada. I'm sure it was random, as when we crossed back to the US, we weren't even stopped.  Either random, or heavily guarded Canadian borders and heavily guarded in the US. 

When I traveled on business to Toronto, I was always asked 3 basic questions: Where I lived, how long was my stay and was it business or pleasure.  Sometime there was a secondary portion such as purpose and or my professional background.

[Aquahound]

41 minutes ago, springfire said:

Once you have confirmed with documents that you are a US citizen you do not need answer any more questions from customs. 

 

Entities like the ACLU tend to give advice like this.  While they might have good intentions, it still is not sound advice. When they ask if you purchased anything abroad, or when they ask if you're bringing tobacco or alcohol into the country, or when they ask how many are traveling in your party, go ahead and remain silent and see what happens.  I hope you don't need to catch a plane soon.

Edited April 1, 2019 by Aquahound

[springfire]

1 minute ago, El Abuelo said:

Sorry, but CBP can inspect the contents of your electronic devices, and retain them for subsequent inspection if you do not cooperate. 

 

They can also ask all the questions they want.

Correct but you don't have to give them your password to your computer or answer questions about yourself.  Don't get me wrong, I am not suggesting you do this but it is within your rights.

[El Abuelo]

8 minutes ago, springfire said:

Correct but you don't have to give them your password to your computer or answer questions about yourself.  Don't get me wrong, I am not suggesting you do this but it is within your rights.

The court has not ruled on this (electronic devices) so it is not settled law. Meanwhile, if they request the pw and you refuse, they can and will take your devices.

 

When you’re in the customs area your rights are limited. While you cannot be forced to answer every question asked, refusing to cooperate is not a smart move. All the advice in this thread to not respond to the personal questions is not good advice. 

 

 

Edited April 1, 2019 by El Abuelo

[Charles4515]

Sorry, but CBP can inspect the contents of your electronic devices, and retain them for subsequent inspection if you do not cooperate. 

 

They can also ask all the questions they want.

 

You don’t have to give them the password. They can however retain the device and send it for inspection and attempt to unlock it. You would have to decide whether it is worth it not to unlock it. Most people are going to decide it is not worth the hassle of denying the password or not answering questions. A journalist might but they probably go prepared. Erase the phone before customs.

 

 

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[springfire]

1 minute ago, Aquahound said:

 

Entities like the ACLU tend to give advice like this.  While they might have good intentions, it still is not sound advice. When they ask if you purchased anything abroad, or when they ask if you're bring tobacco or alcohol into the country, or when they ask how many are traveling in your party, go ahead and remain silent and see what happens.  I hope you don't need to catch a plane soon.

Those are basic custom questions that we are all asked, at customs,  cruisers understand those basic questions.