So called “Service Dogs” on board ships

[wizard-of-roz]

8 hours ago, lindaler said:

When I read this topic when it first came out in the spring I was ready to cancel my cruise but to all who hope to be able to cruise with a service dog I want to say that there is help. It's sort of buried under disabilities and I am sure Roz or someone can post the link. Those guys walked me through all the steps needed to get a USDA 7001 and how many copies of all the forms I would need.  They were there when I spent 45 days training my dog to use a little box while on board. Life would be so much easier if I didn't need my service dog but I do and thanks to her we had a great time cruising and will do it again in Feb.  

I'm so glad that you found our thread and that it lead you to cruising with your dog.  It's in Disabled Cruising - "Cruising With a Service Dog - Everything You Ever Wanted To Know."

 

I'm so proud of you and how brave you were in the training and going forward with your cruise.

[shudie]

I am a psychotherapist in numerous therapy Facebook groups where this topic comes up at least once a week, "my client wants me to write an emotional support animal letter, what do I do?" etc. I will be sure to highlight some of the above mentioned points in the main groups and when this topic comes up. There is a profound difference between 'service dogs' which are trained and 'emotional support' which are rarely trained. 

[wizard-of-roz]

18 minutes ago, shudie said:

I am a psychotherapist in numerous therapy Facebook groups where this topic comes up at least once a week, "my client wants me to write an emotional support animal letter, what do I do?" etc. I will be sure to highlight some of the above mentioned points in the main groups and when this topic comes up. There is a profound difference between 'service dogs' which are trained and 'emotional support' which are rarely trained. 

shudie, I totally and with a full heart understand how and why someone would want their "feel good" dog to be by their side.  With that understanding one has to be aware of the public around us who are subjected to our Service Animals.  Without the proper training some dogs can and will react to certain stimuli in a negative way.  This can be very dangerous and even life threatening in some instances.  I couldn't live with myself in the knowledge that the dog traveling with me would be capable of injuring anyone within my reach.

 

I can't tell you how many times a small child has gotten loose from their parents and run up to Horton's face and hugged him before any one of us could stop them.  Horton just stares at them and immediately sits or lays down, so that he becomes smaller to the child.  How wonderful is that!  Horton is the size of a Minature Horse.  If he were not fully trained he could kill a small child within minutes.

 

WITHOUT FULL TRAINING NO DOG SHOULD BE ALLOWED IN A PUBLIC VENUE, ESPECIALLY IN CONFINED AREAS LIKE CRUISE SHIPS AND AIRPLANES.

 

Please inform your patients of this and insist that their dog be fully trained before you can write any notes for them.  Thank you for your understanding and guidance to assist those in need.

[rpclmc]

On 5/15/2019 at 2:11 PM, 3rdGenCunarder said:

 

I think there was a court decision that did extend ADA rules to ships. I'm not certain, but given that service dogs are allowed on cruises, the cruise lines seem to be following ADA rules--certainly they do in terms of accessible cabins.

If a cruise originates or ends in the U.S., it has to follow U.S. laws.  Even if it it registered in a different country.  This is why Caribbean, Mexican and transatlantic cruises follow the can't drink alcohol unless 21+.  Also why they follow, are required to follow, the ADA.

 

 

 

[rpclmc]

On 5/17/2019 at 2:38 PM, slidergirl said:

 

Do you stay at hotels?  Do you ask the Front Desk Agent to verify that no dog, service or other, has been in the room you are assigned?  If you do not, I highly suggest you start doing that if your allergy is so severe.  The level of cleaning a room occupied by a dog can vary widely, from just doing that they do to any room to taking it off market one day for deep cleaning.

What do you do when you fly?  Turnaround is so fast on aircraft that there is no way to do a special cleaning to an space where a dog was during a flight.  Do you ask the Gate Agent to verify that no dog was in the vicinity of your seat?    

 

Or, due to your allergies, you have made a choice to not stay in hotels or fly?  Honestly, not snarky.  

 

Hotels, planes and cruise lines all know when there has been a dog there and what room/location.  Cruise lines deep clean the room a service occupied, hotels and planes do not.  If one has allergies to dogs, I would be more worried about the hotel rooms and planes.

 

Plus service dogs (the real ones) are VERY clean.  Yes, they have dander and still shed (unless hairless).  I have a service dog and a friend that is allergic to dogs; she has no problems with my dog.  That doesn't mean no one would have allergic reactions around my dog.  I know I respect a person's allergies or fear to my dog as much as I expect respect for my need to use a service dog for my disability; I will do my best to move to another location if someone informs me they are allergic or afraid - if I am the one that entered the space after that person.  If that person entered after me, I would expect them to respect that I was there first and find a location away from me if my dog bothers.

 

 

[rpclmc]

On 5/17/2019 at 7:34 PM, TAD2005 said:

Service dogs are acceptable and welcome everywhere.  

But like anything these days, people will always try to scam the system.    People look at the daily costs to board their little Fluffy for a long cruise, and they realize that for $25 on the internet they can get all the stuff needed to fake a "comfort animal".  The cruise lines don't want to get involved in any political correctness law suits, so they look the other way, hoping that there is not too much animal feces under the MDR tables.   No one knows how to handle this problem without offending someone, so it's a free-for-all.  Finally the airlines have cracked down on the chickens, pigs, snakes, goats, and whatever.   I hope the cruise lines stop letting their lawyers control the issue and use some common sense.  Most "comfort animals" on cruises are simply people trying to avoid paying for a boarding kennel.   There are some legitimate needs for comfort animals, but the animals are not trained to be in that environment, like real service animals are.

From experience, I have a fully trained service dog.  It costs more than $25 for them to get on a cruise.  All the vaccinations, some ports require extra testing (getting into Hawaii, Grand Turk, a couple others may cost upwards of $500), all the supplies needed it can get VERY expensive.  

 

They people that are getting fake service dogs on board a cruise ship are spending as much or more money than hiring a dog sitter or kenneling them at home.  They are to be bringing them because they don't want to leave them behind.

 

It is not easy to travel with a service dog.  It takes a lot of preparation.  For those of us with the real ones who have disabilities - it is not easy to have a disability, we are used to everything taking preparation.  A service dog allows us to try to enjoy activities, travels that otherwise may be impossible to do without assistance.

[rpclmc]

On 10/5/2019 at 1:07 PM, lindaler said:

When I read this topic when it first came out in the spring I was ready to cancel my cruise but to all who hope to be able to cruise with a service dog I want to say that there is help. It's sort of buried under disabilities and I am sure Roz or someone can post the link. Those guys walked me through all the steps needed to get a USDA 7001 and how many copies of all the forms I would need.  They were there when I spent 45 days training my dog to use a little box while on board. Life would be so much easier if I didn't need my service dog but I do and thanks to her we had a great time cruising and will do it again in Feb.  

I don't think I would have been brave enough without the tremendous help from Roz and all the others on that great thread.  My trainer kept asking when I was going to take Halo on cruises and I told her he wasn't ready.  She told me he was so ready, it was me that wasn't ready.  If I hadn't found that thread I don't think I could have done it and done it so well.

 

Halo will be joining me on many other cruises.

[wizard-of-roz]

3 hours ago, rpclmc said:

If a cruise originates or ends in the U.S., it has to follow U.S. laws.  Even if it it registered in a different country.  This is why Caribbean, Mexican and transatlantic cruises follow the can't drink alcohol unless 21+.  Also why they follow, are required to follow, the ADA.

 

 

 

Now, here is where the "law" can get a bit cloudy.  Some entities, although located within the jurisdiction and control of the DOJ are private facilities, run by private companies or Orgs.  Such as church's and other religious org's.   Cruise lines, although they may come into and leave from an American port are actually licensed out of a foreign port.  In order that they attract American's in the ports that they dock, they accommodate folks with; handicapped cabins,  public bathrooms, doors, etc., etc.  Is it just a convenience thing or do they have to, by law.  It's not clear.

 

Now, do they have to allow a Service Dog onboard or are they simply catering to the American public?

 

Can you imagine what would happen with the news in your community if a church denied Service Dogs entrance.....well, the same thing would happen with a Cruise Ship that denied Service Dogs.  Lots and lots of folks would revolt and there would be some mighty bad press and loss of revenue.  There are more animal activists these days than ever before. 

 

Dogs are more popular than ever and people would make the cruise ship industry miserable if they started treating legitimate Service Dogs and their handlers in a negative way.  And, the cruiselines are more than well aware of this!

 

Because a ship leaves out of L.A. or Florida doesn't necessarily mean it is handicapped accessible.

Edited October 7, 2019 by wizard-of-roz

[chengkp75]

6 hours ago, rpclmc said:

If a cruise originates or ends in the U.S., it has to follow U.S. laws.  Even if it it registered in a different country.  This is why Caribbean, Mexican and transatlantic cruises follow the can't drink alcohol unless 21+.  Also why they follow, are required to follow, the ADA.

 

 

 

This is not quite correct.  SCOTUS, in Spector v. NCL, ruled that foreign flag cruise ships had to meet accessibility, to "the greatest extent practicable", which they stated as meaning that modifications required to meet the ADA that would require major redesign of the ship's accommodation are not mandated.  Also, the ship's "internal policies and practices" do not need to meet the ADA, unless Congress were to revise the Act to mention cruise ships specifically.  To date, Congress has not bothered to do this.

2 hours ago, wizard-of-roz said:

Now, here is where the "law" can get a bit cloudy.  Some entities, although located within the jurisdiction and control of the DOJ are private facilities, run by private companies or Orgs.  Such as church's and other religious org's.   Cruise lines, although they may come into and leave from an American port are actually licensed out of a foreign port.  In order that they attract American's in the ports that they dock, they accommodate folks with; handicapped cabins,  public bathrooms, doors, etc., etc.  Is it just a convenience thing or do they have to, by law.  It's not clear.

 

Now, do they have to allow a Service Dog onboard or are they simply catering to the American public?

 

Can you imagine what would happen with the news in your community if a church denied Service Dogs entrance.....well, the same thing would happen with a Cruise Ship that denied Service Dogs.  Lots and lots of folks would revolt and there would be some mighty bad press and loss of revenue.  There are more animal activists these days than ever before. 

 

Dogs are more popular than ever and people would make the cruise ship industry miserable if they started treating legitimate Service Dogs and their handlers in a negative way.  And, the cruiselines are more than well aware of this!

 

Because a ship leaves out of L.A. or Florida doesn't necessarily mean it is handicapped accessible.

Roz, I typically bow to your experiences of traveling with a service dog, but here I will somewhat disagree with you.  The cruise lines are obligated to allow service animals because of the ADA, because they provide public accommodation in the US (i.e. while it is in a US port).  This is not a decision of the cruise line to cater to US sensibilities, it is the law.  As noted above, there are areas of the ADA that do not apply, and SCOTUS allows that SOLAS will always trump ADA when it comes to design of accessibility.

 

However, as I always say when these discussions of service animals comes up, the cruise lines' "internal policies and practices" can apply to how a service dog behaves, and even to limiting access (for example only allowing service dogs in one area of the MDR).  CLIA could, and in my opinion, should come up with a Canine Code of Conduct, which could be more restrictive than what the DOJ spells out for good behavior (and yet still be within what a trained service animal would do), but this is where the cruise lines don't want bad PR and will cater to the US public, allowing virtually any animal and any behavior onboard.

 

You are correct that just because a ship homeports in the US, it may not be accessible.  Older ships will have made the "as practicable" modifications, but there will still be areas that are not accessible (a Princess upper deck lounge comes to mind), but newer ships will need to be designed for accessibility within the overriding scope of SOLAS.

[Underwatr]

5 hours ago, rpclmc said:

This is why Caribbean, Mexican and transatlantic cruises follow the can't drink alcohol unless 21+.

It's secondary to your point but that comment isn't true. It varies by line, with some allowing over 18 when in international  water, over 21 when in US waters on the same cruise. Example: QM2 New York to the Caribbean is 21 or 18 depending on where the ship is at that moment.

[STI]

I just returned from a 19 day  cruise  with a highly trained mobility dog. Without her I couldn't have handled the walking steps wind ship movement. I wouldn't have been able to go. There were two other dogs on board. One was a guide dog for someone who was obviously blind.  It behaved perfectly  using most of the same commands as my dog. The other was out of control  and off leash with no harness in public places. The person with the dog said he was blind but I am a nurse and I doubt it. We got into a conversation and he said his dog was trained in a European country. What he described  was either false. Or unbelievable to me. It's time we licensed service dogs after a standard test. Then ships ect would have a way to refuse fake animals.

[Hlitner]

19 minutes ago, STI said:

I just returned from a 19 day  cruise  with a highly trained mobility dog. Without her I couldn't have handled the walking steps wind ship movement. I wouldn't have been able to go. There were two other dogs on board. One was a guide dog for someone who was obviously blind.  It behaved perfectly  using most of the same commands as my dog. The other was out of control  and off leash with no harness in public places. The person with the dog said he was blind but I am a nurse and I doubt it. We got into a conversation and he said his dog was trained in a European country. What he described  was either false. Or unbelievable to me. It's time we licensed service dogs after a standard test. Then ships ect would have a way to refuse fake animals.

The irony of your suggestion is that it would likely be opposed by most (or all) of the lobby groups representing disabled folks.  There are many sections of the ADA that have caused unintended consequences, but the history of lobby groups in the USA is that they never give ground....even if it is in their own best interests.  Congress (and lobby groups) are well aware of the problems related to so-called Emotional Support Animals...and as is typical of most real issues in Washington...they have chosen to ignore the problem.

 

Hank

[rpclmc]

5 hours ago, wizard-of-roz said:

Now, here is where the "law" can get a bit cloudy.  Some entities, although located within the jurisdiction and control of the DOJ are private facilities, run by private companies or Orgs.  Such as church's and other religious org's.   Cruise lines, although they may come into and leave from an American port are actually licensed out of a foreign port.  In order that they attract American's in the ports that they dock, they accommodate folks with; handicapped cabins,  public bathrooms, doors, etc., etc.  Is it just a convenience thing or do they have to, by law.  It's not clear.

 

Now, do they have to allow a Service Dog onboard or are they simply catering to the American public?

 

Can you imagine what would happen with the news in your community if a church denied Service Dogs entrance.....well, the same thing would happen with a Cruise Ship that denied Service Dogs.  Lots and lots of folks would revolt and there would be some mighty bad press and loss of revenue.  There are more animal activists these days than ever before. 

 

Dogs are more popular than ever and people would make the cruise ship industry miserable if they started treating legitimate Service Dogs and their handlers in a negative way.  And, the cruiselines are more than well aware of this!

 

Because a ship leaves out of L.A. or Florida doesn't necessarily mean it is handicapped accessible.

If I remember right, I think I asked my trainer to ask her ADA specialist if it was law.  I think the answer was.  It must be.  I would think, based on what they could make, that if they didn't have to follow U.S. law, they would let 18-21 year olds drink.  Under 21 can't even drink on the private islands in the Bahamas.  Why not?

 

I have a service dog trainer in Idaho and one in Florida, they have both been refused entrance with fully trained service dogs at churches.  And those churches, although I think the trainers should have contacted media, have lost some members due to that, but not many because it wasn't made public.

 

Linda and Halo

[Quartzsite Cruiser]

1 hour ago, STI said:

I just returned from a 19 day  cruise  with a highly trained mobility dog. Without her I couldn't have handled the walking steps wind ship movement. I wouldn't have been able to go. There were two other dogs on board. One was a guide dog for someone who was obviously blind.  It behaved perfectly  using most of the same commands as my dog. The other was out of control  and off leash with no harness in public places. The person with the dog said he was blind but I am a nurse and I doubt it. We got into a conversation and he said his dog was trained in a European country. What he described  was either false. Or unbelievable to me. It's time we licensed service dogs after a standard test. Then ships ect would have a way to refuse fake animals.

We were on the same cruise and had the pleasure of meeting you and Bridget briefly one morning in the elevator.  As I mentioned to you then, she was well behaved all the times I saw her.  It was obvious that she was highly trained.

 

i think I met the gentleman you referenced with the out of control dog.  Most of the time when I saw them, the woman traveling with him had the dog on a leash   I guess I was fortunate to miss them when the dog was out of control.  The one time I talked to the man, he told me he was blind and had me fill out a form for him.  I think he could see some, but was legally blind.  It is too bad his dog gave service dogs a bad name.

Maybe we will be lucky enough to sail with you and Bridget on another cruise.

 

[rpclmc]

3 hours ago, Underwatr said:

It's secondary to your point but that comment isn't true. It varies by line, with some allowing over 18 when in international  water, over 21 when in US waters on the same cruise. Example: QM2 New York to the Caribbean is 21 or 18 depending on where the ship is at that moment.

I made this comparison again, before I read this.  I pretty much only cruise Carnival now and didn't know that some allowed it once out of U.S. waters.

 

Linda and Halo

 

[slidergirl]

12 hours ago, rpclmc said:

Hotels, planes and cruise lines all know when there has been a dog there and what room/location.  Cruise lines deep clean the room a service occupied, hotels and planes do not.  If one has allergies to dogs, I would be more worried about the hotel rooms and planes.

 

Plus service dogs (the real ones) are VERY clean.  Yes, they have dander and still shed (unless hairless).  I have a service dog and a friend that is allergic to dogs; she has no problems with my dog.  That doesn't mean no one would have allergic reactions around my dog.  I know I respect a person's allergies or fear to my dog as much as I expect respect for my need to use a service dog for my disability; I will do my best to move to another location if someone informs me they are allergic or afraid - if I am the one that entered the space after that person.  If that person entered after me, I would expect them to respect that I was there first and find a location away from me if my dog bothers.

 

 

A hotel does not necessarily know that a dog has been smuggled in and which room it is in.  Trust me on that one.  Every hotel I have worked in, pet friendly or service animal only, deep cleans a room if they know an animal was in there.  

I'm a service animal advocate.  I'm not sure why you are going after me.  The ADA says allergies to not trump service animal need.  

[wizard-of-roz]

7 hours ago, chengkp75 said:

This is not quite correct.  SCOTUS, in Spector v. NCL, ruled that foreign flag cruise ships had to meet accessibility, to "the greatest extent practicable", which they stated as meaning that modifications required to meet the ADA that would require major redesign of the ship's accommodation are not mandated.  Also, the ship's "internal policies and practices" do not need to meet the ADA, unless Congress were to revise the Act to mention cruise ships specifically.  To date, Congress has not bothered to do this.

Roz, I typically bow to your experiences of traveling with a service dog, but here I will somewhat disagree with you.  The cruise lines are obligated to allow service animals because of the ADA, because they provide public accommodation in the US (i.e. while it is in a US port).  This is not a decision of the cruise line to cater to US sensibilities, it is the law.  As noted above, there are areas of the ADA that do not apply, and SCOTUS allows that SOLAS will always trump ADA when it comes to design of accessibility.

 

However, as I always say when these discussions of service animals comes up, the cruise lines' "internal policies and practices" can apply to how a service dog behaves, and even to limiting access (for example only allowing service dogs in one area of the MDR).  CLIA could, and in my opinion, should come up with a Canine Code of Conduct, which could be more restrictive than what the DOJ spells out for good behavior (and yet still be within what a trained service animal would do), but this is where the cruise lines don't want bad PR and will cater to the US public, allowing virtually any animal and any behavior onboard.

 

You are correct that just because a ship homeports in the US, it may not be accessible.  Older ships will have made the "as practicable" modifications, but there will still be areas that are not accessible (a Princess upper deck lounge comes to mind), but newer ships will need to be designed for accessibility within the overriding scope of SOLAS.

And, I shall bow to your knowledge and affirmations.  With respect and with all this bowing........I plead with ALL who are traveling [no matter the mode of transportation] with a Service Dog or Minature Horse......PLEASE, be respectful and aware of those around you......be kind, gentle and teaching towards ALL!!!!

[rpclmc]

16 hours ago, slidergirl said:

A hotel does not necessarily know that a dog has been smuggled in and which room it is in.  Trust me on that one.  Every hotel I have worked in, pet friendly or service animal only, deep cleans a room if they know an animal was in there.  

I'm a service animal advocate.  I'm not sure why you are going after me.  The ADA says allergies to not trump service animal need.  

I am so sorry if you thought I was going after you, I didn't mean it that way.  Just expressing my knowledge.  Your knowledge on what hotels do is more than mine.  And I agree, you wouldn't know if one was smuggled in, I didn't even think about that.

 

As to what the ADA says about allergies not trumping service animals, that is great and I know it says that.  I just hope that everyone on both sides - allergies, service dog owners, just respect each other and do what is necessary for the other to exist and as comfortably as possible.  Each is a legitimate concern.

 

Linda and Halo

 

[DeeniEncinitas]

1 hour ago, rpclmc said:

I am so sorry if you thought I was going after you, I didn't mean it that way.  Just expressing my knowledge.  Your knowledge on what hotels do is more than mine.  And I agree, you wouldn't know if one was smuggled in, I didn't even think about that.

 

As to what the ADA says about allergies not trumping service animals, that is great and I know it says that.  I just hope that everyone on both sides - allergies, service dog owners, just respect each other and do what is necessary for the other to exist and as comfortably as possible.  Each is a legitimate concern.

 

Linda and Halo

 

Linda, 

Just love Halo. My baby grand puppy Paisley is so precious and is retired as a service doggy! Just wanted to say how much real service animals are so wonderful!

Denise 😊

 

[Dunelm]

I agree with the concern about so-called comfort dogs.  Service dogs are wonderful, not so "comfort dogs."   Last year, on a Southwest flight, two comfort dogs were directly behind us.  We did not put up a stink, but the dog certainly did--it pooed.  Perhaps all those who need their comfort dogs with them should 1) not fly or 2) be given a stuffed animal to cuddle or 3) their "blankie" or pacifier.  Yes, I am a skeptic.

[terrydtx]

45 minutes ago, Dunelm said:

I agree with the concern about so-called comfort dogs.  Service dogs are wonderful, not so "comfort dogs."   Last year, on a Southwest flight, two comfort dogs were directly behind us.  We did not put up a stink, but the dog certainly did--it pooed.  Perhaps all those who need their comfort dogs with them should 1) not fly or 2) be given a stuffed animal to cuddle or 3) their "blankie" or pacifier.  Yes, I am a skeptic.

I agree about comfort dogs which I think are just a bunch of BS so people can have their dogs with them anywhere they go. Recently one of these so called "Comfort" dogs pooped in my grocery store right in front of the meat counter. Many customers including myself complained to the manager but we were told they couldn't deny people from having them in the store. If a comfort dog is a real comfort dog and properly trained it would not have pooped in the store. I also called my city health department about non service dogs in a grocery store and was told nothing they could do about them. I am too a skeptic.

[chengkp75]

1 hour ago, terrydtx said:

I agree about comfort dogs which I think are just a bunch of BS so people can have their dogs with them anywhere they go. Recently one of these so called "Comfort" dogs pooped in my grocery store right in front of the meat counter. Many customers including myself complained to the manager but we were told they couldn't deny people from having them in the store. If a comfort dog is a real comfort dog and properly trained it would not have pooped in the store. I also called my city health department about non service dogs in a grocery store and was told nothing they could do about them. I am too a skeptic.

Tell your city that what they say is simply not true.  ESA's only have protection in housing, and for now on airplanes, not in public venues.

[wizard-of-roz]

12 minutes ago, terrydtx said:

I agree about comfort dogs which I think are just a bunch of BS so people can have their dogs with them anywhere they go. Recently one of these so called "Comfort" dogs pooped in my grocery store right in front of the meat counter. Many customers including myself complained to the manager but we were told they couldn't deny people from having them in the store. If a comfort dog is a real comfort dog and properly trained it would not have pooped in the store. I also called my city health department about non service dogs in a grocery store and was told nothing they could do about them. I am too a skeptic.

It's not the dog that should be asked to leave the store, it's the handler.  Every appropriate handler of a Service Dog knows that the dog should be offered a "relief" before they enter a public venue.  I would have approached the handler and admonished them for mistreatment of an animal. 

 

There are definitely laws against mistreating animals.  The manager of the store had every right to warn the handler that not allowing her animal to relieve itself before entering was cruel and she needs to leave before authorities are called!

 

Feel Good dogs do NOT have public access.  This is a line that most management is afraid to cross......until the animal or handler acts badly, then they should move with confidence in asking the handler to leave.

 

Edited October 9, 2019 by wizard-of-roz

[3rdGenCunarder]

I was at my public library today. They have a sign saying something like "service dogs only as defined by the Americans With Disabilities Act" (yes, in boldface) so I wonder if they've had some problems. I don't recall seeing that sign before. I guess they're willing to face people and ask what the dog's service tasks are. That's a legit question, and " comfort" isn't an ADA answer.

 

Edited October 10, 2019 by 3rdGenCunarder

[Underwatr]

Straight from the horse's mouth (except that horses are no longer considered eligible to be service animals, but I digress):

 

Service Animals - ada.gov