Federal judge threatens to temporarily block Carnival ships from docking at U.S. port

[Ep010835]

The collateral damage to cruise support businesses would be horrible thereby punishing wage earners who have no investment in CCL’s sins. 

 

A ban would impractical.  

[Cruise Raider]

13 hours ago, c-boy said:

motive ?

 

From what I read, it is my understanding that multiple cruiselines that are under the Carnival umbrella were actually responsible for the dirty deeds.  

 

I don't think the judge will actually carry out the threat of these ships not being able to dock in any US port ... it's just interesting to me that was even a suggestion.  I'm sure more fines will be imposed ... but I have no crystal ball ... guess we'll find out Monday.  I'm not too worried either way ... if my next cruise is canceled, so be it.  I can always choose a different cruiseline.  

[rhblake]

preparing ships in advance of court-ordered audits, falsified records, dumped plastic garbage into the ocean and illegally discharged gray water into Glacier Bay National Park in Alaska.

Does anyone know if Carnival has been found guilty on these charges or are they just charges?

[Shmoo here]

1 hour ago, rhblake said:

preparing ships in advance of court-ordered audits, falsified records, dumped plastic garbage into the ocean and illegally discharged gray water into Glacier Bay National Park in Alaska.

Does anyone know if Carnival has been found guilty on these charges or are they just charges?

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/carnival-princess-cruises-40-million-dollar-fine-seven-felony-charges-ocean-pollution/

 

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-carnival-usa-pollution/carnival-princess-to-pay-record-40-million-for-pollution-cover-up-idUSKBN13Q4YB

[chengkp75]

3 hours ago, rhblake said:

preparing ships in advance of court-ordered audits, falsified records, dumped plastic garbage into the ocean and illegally discharged gray water into Glacier Bay National Park in Alaska.

Does anyone know if Carnival has been found guilty on these charges or are they just charges?

These are findings from the court appointed auditor teams when they visited the ships.  Carnival may have disputed some of the 800+ violations found, but the findings from the auditors are considered to be factual presentations to the court.  Carnival agreed to the terms of their probation, including inspections and reporting by the auditor teams.  They have reached a plea deal with prosecutors, and currently the judge is studying the deal and will make a decision on Monday as to whether she accepts or rejects the deal, and if she rejects it, whether it goes back to negotiation or whether she will make a summary verdict.

[jeromep]

8 hours ago, Shmoo here said:

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/carnival-princess-cruises-40-million-dollar-fine-seven-felony-charges-ocean-pollution/

 

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-carnival-usa-pollution/carnival-princess-to-pay-record-40-million-for-pollution-cover-up-idUSKBN13Q4YB

The CBS News article is from December 2, 2016.

The Reuters article is from December 1, 2016.

 

Just pointing this out for reference purposes.

[jeromep]

10 hours ago, rhblake said:

preparing ships in advance of court-ordered audits, falsified records, dumped plastic garbage into the ocean and illegally discharged gray water into Glacier Bay National Park in Alaska.

Does anyone know if Carnival has been found guilty on these charges or are they just charges?

Anyone who has ever worked in a highly regulated or audited industry knows that prior to an audit there is always work conducted to "prepare" for the audit.  This can be conducted in a number of different ways and a preparation can, and usually is, innocuous, not malicious or fraudulent.

 

To not prepare for an audit is like being in school and being told by a teacher that a test is next week, but you are prohibited from studying for the test.

 

As for falsified records, and dumping and discharge, that may all be factual, but to roll audit preparation into these charges is misleading and egregious.

[chengkp75]

1 hour ago, jeromep said:

Anyone who has ever worked in a highly regulated or audited industry knows that prior to an audit there is always work conducted to "prepare" for the audit.  This can be conducted in a number of different ways and a preparation can, and usually is, innocuous, not malicious or fraudulent.

 

To not prepare for an audit is like being in school and being told by a teacher that a test is next week, but you are prohibited from studying for the test.

 

As for falsified records, and dumping and discharge, that may all be factual, but to roll audit preparation into these charges is misleading and egregious.

That all depends on what the "preparation" instructions are, such as "if you are doing this, then you need to do this to be in compliance with the audit" which is condoning illegal activity and not creating the required culture where "doing this" would not be considered, therefore it would not need to be corrected prior to the audit.  Part of the probation terms is to require a complete restructuring of corporate culture where environmental compliance is second nature in every action taken onboard.  Giving directives on how to comply with an audit, without teaching and coaching on how to do something properly in the first place, is far from what the regulations or the probation agreement require.

[Globehoppers]

On August 26, 2013, the crew of Caribbean Princess deliberately discharged 4,227 gallons of oil-contaminated waste off the southern coast of England.The discharge involved the illegal modification of the vessel's on-board pollution control systems, and was photographed by a newly hired engineer. When the ship subsequently berthed at Southampton, the engineer resigned his position and reported the discharge to the UK Maritime and Coastguard Agency.An investigation was launched by the United States Department of Justice Environment and Natural Resources Division which found that the practice had been taking place on Caribbean Princess and four other Princess ships since 2005. In December 2016, Princess Cruise Lines agreed to plead guilty to 7 felony charges and pay a $40 million penalty. The charges related to illegal discharges off the coasts of Florida, Maine, Massachusetts, New Jersey, New York, Rhode Island, South Carolina, Texas, Virginia, the U.S. Virgin Islands and Puerto Rico. As part of the agreement cruise ships from 8 Carnival companies, including Carnival Cruise Line and Holland America Line, are required to operate for 5 years under a court-supervised environmental compliance plan with independent audits and a court-appointed monitor. According to the US Justice Department, the fine was the "largest-ever criminal penalty involving deliberate vessel pollution.

 

These "Grand Class" ships are poorly built and "shake" more than they should.  I will not sail on them, but do sail on the "Royal Class."  

 

To compensate for the $40million fine, beverage packages have been increased in price by 20 percent.

[chengkp75]

1 hour ago, Globehoppers said:

On August 26, 2013, the crew of Caribbean Princess deliberately discharged 4,227 gallons of oil-contaminated waste off the southern coast of England.The discharge involved the illegal modification of the vessel's on-board pollution control systems, and was photographed by a newly hired engineer. When the ship subsequently berthed at Southampton, the engineer resigned his position and reported the discharge to the UK Maritime and Coastguard Agency.An investigation was launched by the United States Department of Justice Environment and Natural Resources Division which found that the practice had been taking place on Caribbean Princess and four other Princess ships since 2005. In December 2016, Princess Cruise Lines agreed to plead guilty to 7 felony charges and pay a $40 million penalty. The charges related to illegal discharges off the coasts of Florida, Maine, Massachusetts, New Jersey, New York, Rhode Island, South Carolina, Texas, Virginia, the U.S. Virgin Islands and Puerto Rico. As part of the agreement cruise ships from 8 Carnival companies, including Carnival Cruise Line and Holland America Line, are required to operate for 5 years under a court-supervised environmental compliance plan with independent audits and a court-appointed monitor. According to the US Justice Department, the fine was the "largest-ever criminal penalty involving deliberate vessel pollution.

 

These "Grand Class" ships are poorly built and "shake" more than they should.  I will not sail on them, but do sail on the "Royal Class."  

 

To compensate for the $40million fine, beverage packages have been increased in price by 20 percent.

Not sure how you come by the conclusion that the Grand class are "poorly built"?  Are you a naval architect or marine engineer?  All ships "shake" at times, some more than others, and it has nothing to do with being "poorly built".

 

Really?  You think the drink package price increase is because of the fine?  Tell me how much a total cruise (fare and onboard spending) has increased over the last 10 years, and compare that to inflation.

[c-boy]

27 minutes ago, Globehoppers said:

On August 26, 2013, the crew of Caribbean Princess deliberately discharged 4,227 gallons of oil-contaminated waste off the southern coast of England.The discharge involved the illegal modification of the vessel's on-board pollution control systems, and was photographed by a newly hired engineer. When the ship subsequently berthed at Southampton, the engineer resigned his position and reported the discharge to the UK Maritime and Coastguard Agency.An investigation was launched by the United States Department of Justice Environment and Natural Resources Division which found that the practice had been taking place on Caribbean Princess and four other Princess ships since 2005. In December 2016, Princess Cruise Lines agreed to plead guilty to 7 felony charges and pay a $40 million penalty. The charges related to illegal discharges off the coasts of Florida, Maine, Massachusetts, New Jersey, New York, Rhode Island, South Carolina, Texas, Virginia, the U.S. Virgin Islands and Puerto Rico. As part of the agreement cruise ships from 8 Carnival companies, including Carnival Cruise Line and Holland America Line, are required to operate for 5 years under a court-supervised environmental compliance plan with independent audits and a court-appointed monitor. According to the US Justice Department, the fine was the "largest-ever criminal penalty involving deliberate vessel pollution.

 

These "Grand Class" ships are poorly built and "shake" more than they should.  I will not sail on them, but do sail on the "Royal Class."  

 

To compensate for the $40million fine, beverage packages have been increased in price by 20 percent.

  wow!

[ontheweb]

Since we are almost up to Monday, we should find out soon. And I am guessing whatever the judge rules, these boards will be very active.

 

One caveat is there are almost always appeals, so whatever gets decided tomorrow may not be the final outcome.

[billco]

At the rate environmental regulations are being reduced or overturned, it may only be a matter of time before Carnival's transgression will be found in compliance.

https://news.bloombergenvironment.com/environment-and-energy/26-environmental-rules-being-rolled-back-in-the-trump-era

[mrell345]

what i want to see is if the president and directors of Carnival show up tomorrow as ordered by the judge and what happens if they don’t.

[Globehoppers]

23 hours ago, chengkp75 said:

Not sure how you come by the conclusion that the Grand class are "poorly built"?  Are you a naval architect or marine engineer?  All ships "shake" at times, some more than others, and it has nothing to do with being "poorly built".

 

Really?  You think the drink package price increase is because of the fine?  Tell me how much a total cruise (fare and onboard spending) has increased over the last 10 years, and compare that to inflation.

 

Cheng,

 

Have been sailing all men life.  First I recall was a trans-Atlantic in 1949 from NYC to Amsterdam.  At least a dozen crossings on ocean liners then 30 years in the US Navy on a variety of ships to include CVNs, CGNs, LHAs, etc.  For the last 20 years probably too much "cruising" on cruise ships.  Worst ships I've every sailed are the Grand class.  They "shake" in rough weather.  Poor design.  The Royal class doesn't.  Neither do the rest of the menagerie of cruise ships I've sailed.  I once discussed this phenomenon with a senior master of a large cruise ship from a competing company.  He smiled, nodded, but would not say anything.  I will not sail on a Grand class.  

 

Facetious comment re raising drink prices to compensate for the $40million fine.  However, Princess/Carnival will make it up through increased fares and fees.  The worst part of all this is that Princess/Carnival designed the system specifically to pollute.  $40Million does not begin cover this intentional infraction of maritime law and practice.

Edited June 3, 2019 by Globehoppers

[JimmyVWine]

2 hours ago, Globehoppers said:

 However, Princess/Carnival will make it up through increased fares and fees.

That would actually be hard to do. Princess is offering a product that is on par, more or less, with its competitors. If it raises fares noticeably higher than its competition, bookings will suffer. Prices fluctuate with demand and if bookings are slow, prices have to come down, penalties or not. Can’t sail with empty cabins. Look at it from the perspective of airfares. If AA and UA both fly from JFK to Chicago for $400 and UA raises its fare to $475 to pay off a hefty fine, who would choose UA over AA?  Eventually UA will have to lower its fare to match AA. Cruises are a little different, but the concept is pretty much the same. 

[EDDY0827]

Those who think that a federal judge or judges won't make a ruling that is so detrimental to the cruise industry need only to look how court rulings decimated the timber industry in the West, particularly in Northern California over the Spotted Owl. Hundreds of lumber mills large and small were put out of business virtually overnight idling thousands of workers from timberfallers to truck drivers, suppliers, mechanics etc.

[c-boy]

no

[Expat Cruise]

I do not think this case will be settle at the June 3nd hearing. First just last week lawyers for three new people filed under the Crime Victims’ Rights Act (CVRA), which gives victims the right to have input and see all the files, documents and legal information. Since the pollution hap[pen in part in US waters many can make claims under CVRA.

 

Any fine is just going to to o past on the the guests, therefore I believe some form of a ban will be in the final ruling. As has already been stated, the probation violations are already considered to be fact.  It is not a hearing to prove if they happen it is what the result will be becasue of them. 

 

[JimmyVWine]

9 hours ago, EDDY0827 said:

Those who think that a federal judge or judges won't make a ruling that is so detrimental to the cruise industry need only to look how court rulings decimated the timber industry in the West, particularly in Northern California over the Spotted Owl.

On Friday, both the Governor of Alaska and its Attorney General weighed in with a lengthy submission asking the court to show leniency toward Carnival inasmuch as a docking ban would devastate the Alaska economy.  Here is a small excerpt:

 

"At a local level, where the impact of and reliance on the cruise ship industry is even more striking, a ban on Carnival vessels would be devastating. Alaska’s coastal communities are largely remote—with access only by air or sea. The ability of cruise lines to bring visitors to these areas is vital to their economies. For example, in the City of Ketchikan, tourism (and particularly cruise ships) has replaced timber as the leading industry. Of Ketchikan’s 2019 projected sales tax revenue of $12.5 million, approximately $4 million is estimated to be directly or indirectly attributable to tourism. Further, of the 1.2 million cruise ship passengers expected to arrive this year in Ketchikan (a community of just over 8,000 year-round residents), Carnival will account for 56 percent of these visitors. In the City of Skagway, “[t]he travel industry is the most important segment of Skagway’s economy, providing business opportunities, employment and government revenue for the City . . . virtually no other basic economic sectors exist.” Cruise ships almost make up the entirety of the travel industry’s presence in Skagway, composing 1.3 of the approximately 1.4 million seasonal visitors in 2018. Even in the larger City of Juneau—Alaska’s capital—the visitor industry accounts for $13.5 million in municipal tax revenues, $109 million in labor income, and 12 percent of jobs. Cruise ships in turn account for over 90 percent of visitor volume in Juneau. These and many other Alaska communities are invested in the ongoing ability of cruise lines to provide access for visitors. Banning Carnival vessels from Alaska’s ports would result in lasting, potentially unrecoverable damage.

 

To be clear, Alaska agrees that any cruise ship operator must comply with state and federal environmental laws and needs to be held accountable for noncompliance. However, Alaska respectfully requests that the Court consider the potential collateral economic outfall on Alaska and its local communities when deciding what penalties are appropriate in this matter. Alaska is confident that a punishment could be imposed that avoids the unnecessarily harmful impact that would result from banning Carnival vessels from U.S. ports. Thank you for your consideration."

 

On Friday, Florida's Congressman from the 24th District (Dade/Broward) did as well, similarly laying out the enormous economic impact that a ban would bring to FL. (Billions).  Additional letters of support were submitted from the likes of the Chamber of Commerce, the U.S. Travel Industry, and even the American Cancer Society.

Edited June 3, 2019 by JimmyVWine

[bemis12]

4 minutes ago, JimmyVWine said:

On Friday, both the Governor of Alaska and its Attorney General weighed in with a lengthy submission asking the court to show leniency toward Carnival inasmuch as a docking ban would devastate the Alaska economy.  Here is a small excerpt:

 

"At a local level, where the impact of and reliance on the cruise ship industry is even more striking, a ban on Carnival vessels would be devastating. Alaska’s coastal communities are largely remote—with access only by air or sea. The ability of cruise lines to bring visitors to these areas is vital to their economies.

 

 

Thanks for posting that.  This was why a ban could never seriously be considered.  It was an attention-getting shot across the bow.

 

THANK GOD people with some common sense will make the decisions, not people reacting on emotions.

[voljeep]

1 hour ago, bemis12 said:

 

Thanks for posting that.  This was why a ban could never seriously be considered.  It was an attention-getting shot across the bow.

 

THANK GOD people with some common sense will make the decisions, not people reacting on emotions.

dog and pony show ... for the judge to get some Carnival bigwigs into his/her courtroom for a scolding...

 

punishment would be having to stay on a Carnival ship and live/work with the crew for a week ... on each ship

[azbirdmom]

John Heald from Carnival just posted this on his page.  Wondering if this is part of the settlement agreement and if we will be seeing something similar from Princess very soon?

 

Edited to add link to the announcement on the Carnival website:  https://www.carnival.com/about-carnival/carnival-guest-update.aspx 

 

Edited June 3, 2019 by azbirdmom
added link to announcement

[chengkp75]

1 hour ago, azbirdmom said:

John Heald from Carnival just posted this on his page.  Wondering if this is part of the settlement agreement and if we will be seeing something similar from Princess very soon?

 

And nothing there addresses the violations found by the auditors.

[azbirdmom]

1 minute ago, chengkp75 said:

And nothing there addresses the violations found by the auditors.

 

In reading through the list of violations, I saw that several mentioned ground up foil wrappers from butter, coffee stirs, etc. with the food waste.  I was thinking that this was meant to address part of the problem.  I guess we will know more later today.