Grandeur Sold

[Oakman]

I surely hope they paint and rehab the exterior of the Enchantment soon. On the Symphony 2 weeks ago we were docked next to her in Cozumel. Her exterior condition was embarrassing. Covered in huge rust spots and faded paint. I was so upset by her condition, I even wrote Michael Bayley in Miami with my concerns. Just received a "form letter" from Guest Services thanking me for sailing the Symphony. Surely others must have noticed her unfortunate condition.

[kwokpot]

I don't think Enchantment has complementary steam and sauna rooms as does the Grandeur? If so, THAT'S a big letdown!

[ONECRUISER]

34 minutes ago, CruisinCrow said:

Why Grandeur and not Majesty?

Majesty was updated twice within last decade, Grandeur not so much. As originally built Majesty had 95% the rooms with 2 Couchs that had to be made into beds Every Nite.  She also has big Following, though doubt reason

Edited October 16, 2019 by ONECRUISER

[Merion_Mom]

13 minutes ago, ONECRUISER said:

Majesty was updated twice within last decade, Grandeur not so much. As originally built Majesty had 95% the rooms with 2 Couchs that had to be made into beds Every Nite.  She also has big Following, though doubt reason

 

I believe that they are keeping Majesty in the expectation that Cuba will again become a destination.

[Merion_Mom]

47 minutes ago, Oakman said:

I surely hope they paint and rehab the exterior of the Enchantment soon. On the Symphony 2 weeks ago we were docked next to her in Cozumel. Her exterior condition was embarrassing. Covered in huge rust spots and faded paint. I was so upset by her condition, I even wrote Michael Bayley in Miami with my concerns. Just received a "form letter" from Guest Services thanking me for sailing the Symphony. Surely others must have noticed her unfortunate condition.

 

It has been explained elsewhere that both Galveston and Mexican ports prohibit painting while in port.  That's where Enchantment is right now.

[ONECRUISER]

16 minutes ago, Merion_Mom said:

 

I believe that they are keeping Majesty in the expectation that Cuba will again become a destination.

Agree. At least another 13 months before they make that Decision

[rimmit]

14 minutes ago, Merion_Mom said:

 

It has been explained elsewhere that both Galveston and Mexican ports prohibit painting while in port.  That's where Enchantment is right now.

 

1 hour ago, Oakman said:

I surely hope they paint and rehab the exterior of the Enchantment soon. On the Symphony 2 weeks ago we were docked next to her in Cozumel. Her exterior condition was embarrassing. Covered in huge rust spots and faded paint. I was so upset by her condition, I even wrote Michael Bayley in Miami with my concerns. Just received a "form letter" from Guest Services thanking me for sailing the Symphony. Surely others must have noticed her unfortunate condition.

 

The enchantment was in sad condition this Feb. when we sailed on her out of PC, and as far as I know PC and Nassau allow painting.  It was truly an embarrassment.  We were parked next to the Vision which looked SPARKLING.  I was shocked how well she looked as I hadn't seen her since 2008 when we did a Mexican Baja cruise back when RCI went out of LA.  She looked amazing. Freshly painted, beautiful windows.  Looked like a nearly new ship.  The Enchantment windows were miserable, the trampolines in need of replacement, rust EVERYWHERE and just looked terrible.  It was in pretty sad shape and some first time RCI cruisers we met were definitely not impressed. I ripped it apart on the survey.  While the Grandeur is a little rusty herself, I was genuinely concerned for tetanus on some areas of the pool deck on the enchantment.  The interior was in reasonable condition, but the exterior was truly an embarrassment and RCI should be ashamed they would let her get so bad.

[JP82]

Slighltly off topic, but related. Can someone explain Pulmanturs brand proposition/position within the group?

 

Like Celebrity is the premium brand for RCI, RC the Mainstream... Is Pulmantur seen as the lower tier? Or does it not work like that?

[Merion_Mom]

2 minutes ago, JP82 said:

Slighltly off topic, but related. Can someone explain Pulmanturs brand proposition/position within the group?

 

Like Celebrity is the premium brand for RCI, RC the Mainstream... Is Pulmantur seen as the lower tier? Or does it not work like that?

 

It does not work like that.  RC bought a share of Pullmantur, which is a Spain-based company.  I don't know the percentage of control.

[retiredgram]

2 minutes ago, rimmit said:

 

 

The enchantment was in sad condition this Feb. when we sailed on her out of PC, and as far as I know PC and Nassau allow painting.  It was truly an embarrassment.  We were parked next to the Vision which looked SPARKLING.  I was shocked how well she looked as I hadn't seen her since 2008 when we did a Mexican Baja cruise back when RCI went out of LA.  She looked amazing. Freshly painted, beautiful windows.  Looked like a nearly new ship.  The Enchantment windows were miserable, the trampolines in need of replacement, rust EVERYWHERE and just looked terrible.  It was in pretty sad shape and some first time RCI cruisers we met were definitely not impressed. I ripped it apart on the survey.  While the Grandeur is a little rusty herself, I was genuinely concerned for tetanus on some areas of the pool deck on the enchantment.  The interior was in reasonable condition, but the exterior was truly an embarrassment and RCI should be ashamed they would let her get so bad.

While the Grandeur might be an older ship and showing her age, the crew were always painting the exterior and fixing any issues that were showing.  Will be interesting to see what the Enchantment looks like in comparison.

[Tatka]

5 minutes ago, JP82 said:

Slighltly off topic, but related. Can someone explain Pulmanturs brand proposition/position within the group?

 

Like Celebrity is the premium brand for RCI, RC the Mainstream... Is Pulmantur seen as the lower tier? Or does it not work like that?

 

They are something like club cruises. Lower tier, but all inclusive (drinks, gratuities).

I believe they are for Spanish (Spanish speaking?) market.

[ONECRUISER]

2 minutes ago, Merion_Mom said:

 

It does not work like that.  RC bought a share of Pullmantur, which is a Spain-based company.  I don't know the percentage of control.

Agree, think Royal sold part their stake:  

Royal Caribbean Cruises and Madrid-based private equity firm Springwater Capital today announced an agreement to form a joint venture which will see Royal selling a 51 percent stake in Pullmantur and CDF to Springwater, which purchased Pullmantur's tour assets in 2014.

Pullmantur has been regarded as a distraction to Royal Caribbean leadership. The press release said the move was "dedicated to bringing culturally authentic, best-in-class cruise experiences tailored to Spanish and French tourists through the management of the Pullmantur and Croisières de France cruise brands."

Neither Royal Caribbean or Springwater responded to questions from Cruise Industry News last week.

As part of the terms of the agreement, RCL will sell a 51 percent stake in Pullmantur and CDF to Springwater. 

RCL will have a 49 percent stake, and retain full ownership of the ships and planes currently operated by Pullmantur and CDF, which will be leased into the joint venture. RCL will also provide marine operations services to Pullmantur and CDF through a management agreement.

[JP82]

Just now, ONECRUISER said:

Agree, think Royal sold part their stake:  

Royal Caribbean Cruises and Madrid-based private equity firm Springwater Capital today announced an agreement to form a joint venture which will see Royal selling a 51 percent stake in Pullmantur and CDF to Springwater, which purchased Pullmantur's tour assets in 2014.

Pullmantur has been regarded as a distraction to Royal Caribbean leadership. The press release said the move was "dedicated to bringing culturally authentic, best-in-class cruise experiences tailored to Spanish and French tourists through the management of the Pullmantur and Croisières de France cruise brands."

Neither Royal Caribbean or Springwater responded to questions from Cruise Industry News last week.

As part of the terms of the agreement, RCL will sell a 51 percent stake in Pullmantur and CDF to Springwater. 

RCL will have a 49 percent stake, and retain full ownership of the ships and planes currently operated by Pullmantur and CDF, which will be leased into the joint venture. RCL will also provide marine operations services to Pullmantur and CDF through a management agreement.

 

Well the last part says they have a 49 percent stake, so still a sizeable part, and the message sent out does refer to them as part of the family.

[John&LaLa]

4 hours ago, Beachammo said:

 

I understand the concept.

 

Cram as many people on a ship as possible and you make more money.

 

I hope they are done selling and leave Vision/Rhapsody in the fleet for awhile.

 

Hopefully they dont get rid of cabins as fast as they build them

[ONECRUISER]

7 minutes ago, JP82 said:

 

Well the last part says they have a 49 percent stake, so still a sizeable part, and the message sent out does refer to them as part of the family.

Agree, and Ships: RCL will have a 49 percent stake, and retain full ownership of the ships and planes currently operated by Pullmantur and CDF, which will be leased into the joint venture.

[DELTABLUE]

Though not really surprising, the handwriting has been on the wall for some time now, it is still very sad to know that Grandeur will be leaving her Baltimore fans and leave the RCI fleet.  Although my last booking on her has been cancelled, I still have 3 more to look forward to.  Most relieved to learn that we will still have a RCI ship to serve the Greater Baltimore community.  Grandeur's been my home away from home for a long time now and I will dearly miss her and her wonderful crew.   Here's to a great lady and all those who served her so very well!  Cheers.

[Tatka]

17 minutes ago, ONECRUISER said:

Agree, and Ships: RCL will have a 49 percent stake, and retain full ownership of the ships and planes currently operated by Pullmantur and CDF, which will be leased into the joint venture.

 

Is CDF a French part of Pullman tour to which Celebrity Century was sold?

[chengkp75]

4 hours ago, UPNYGuy said:

 

this is also why Carnival has been densifying the Destiny class when refurbishing then into the Sunshine class. It helps them recoup the investment and turn a profit on the older, more midsize ships. 

Actually, I think that Carnival's "rebuilding" plan is not that cost effective.  The real cost of older ships is not on the front of house, it is the technical side.  Ships over 15 years old no longer get the waiver to drydock every 5 years (with an underwater survey at the mid-period), but must actually drydock twice in 5 years.  Also, after the 15 year point, the technical inspections of the hull and machinery become much more intensive (read costly), and typically result in much more costly drydockings (steel renewal in tanks, hull plating, etc).  So, regardless of whether the Carnival ship remains under her old name and gets a hotel facelift, or they pack a big pile of cosmetic upgrades, and change the name, the hull is still old, and still requires the attention of an old ship.  The maintenance costs for ships over time is an exponential relationship, and it really turns the corner, going upwards in cost over a shorter and shorter period at the 15 year mark.

 

Why is Grandeur being sold to Pullmantur?  Cost.  Pullmantur has a different business model, and operates on a different profit margin, and with a different demographic, and can cover the added cost of older ships.

[Lady Hudson]

We sailed Enchantment when she was last in Baltimore a while back.  I liked her, especially the pool deck.  But . . . a reason given for moving EN was the fact that her engines had a hard time keeping up with more than one sea day at a time after the expansion.  3 and 4 day trips were considered better for EN.  So . . . If that was true- what’s changed?  Hope we still see the 9, and 11/12 trips on EN.  Katherine

[Hoopster95]

1 hour ago, CruisinCrow said:

Why Grandeur and not Majesty?

 

1 hour ago, Merion_Mom said:

I believe that they are keeping Majesty in the expectation that Cuba will again become a destination.

 

The above...

plus I believe a huge factor is because Grandeur = 2446 passengers, Majesty = 2,767

At an average of $500 cruise fare per person, that's' $160,000 in extra revenue per 5 day sailing

Say 70 sailings per year = $11,200,000

 

I think the advertised price tag on that "yachts for sale" website that we visited on this forum several times the last couple of years I believe was around $10,000,000 wasn't it? Majesty pays for Grandeur in only one year.

 

 

[Hoopster95]

11 minutes ago, chengkp75 said:

Why is Grandeur being sold to Pullmantur?  Cost.  Pullmantur has a different business model, and operates on a different profit margin, and with a different demographic, and can cover the added cost of older ships.

 

Thank you for joining the discussion Cheng. I predict Voyager Class will outlast Radiance Class in the decade to come. Like Grandeur (Vision Class as a whole) is now facing becoming extinct, do you feel the costs for an older version of Radiance Class... say in 5-8 years when there are 6 Oasis, 6 Quantum and a couple of Icon ships sailing ... will cause Royal to remove Radiance Class from the fleet as well once Vision is gone?

 

 

Edited October 16, 2019 by Hoopster95

[FlowBroTy]

25 minutes ago, Hoopster95 said:

I predict Voyager Class will outlast Radiance Class in the decade to come. 

I Think Radiance Class Will Stick Around For 10 More Years. They Are Made For Long Adventures. With Azipods And A Lot Of Actives They Are Perfect For Long Cruises.

 

[Baron Barracuda]

Our first Royal cruise was aboard Grandeur back in '97.  At the time she seemed glitzy and huge.  Was so impressed took our kids on their first cruise aboard her the following year.  They were hooked.  Didn't sail her again for 20 years, until last year.  Not much had changed.  Love the old comfortable lounges.

 

Just shows that old Royal (and X ) ships never die, they just go to Pullmantur.

[chengkp75]

2 hours ago, Hoopster95 said:

 

Thank you for joining the discussion Cheng. I predict Voyager Class will outlast Radiance Class in the decade to come. Like Grandeur (Vision Class as a whole) is now facing becoming extinct, do you feel the costs for an older version of Radiance Class... say in 5-8 years when there are 6 Oasis, 6 Quantum and a couple of Icon ships sailing ... will cause Royal to remove Radiance Class from the fleet as well once Vision is gone?

 

 

It's a complicated question.  Is there a demographic (passenger mix or port mix) that demands the smaller ships?  Does the cost over time for the older ship outweigh the cost of a newbuild?  How is the overall demand for capacity?  But, yes, RCI seems to keep ships around 20-25 years, so pretty much unless there is a "twitch" in the demand for a special sized ship (like Empress and Majesty), the Radiance class will start to go around 2025 or so.  I'm no expert in cruise marketing, I just know maintenance costs and newbuild costs.

[chengkp75]

1 hour ago, FlowBroTy said:

I Think Radiance Class Will Stick Around For 10 More Years. They Are Made For Long Adventures. With Azipods And A Lot Of Actives They Are Perfect For Long Cruises.

 

Not sure why azipods makes the ship better for longer cruises, but Voyager class have them as well.  Radiance class ships have the gas turbines, which are more expensive to operate than the diesel electric ships, so this is against their continued use.  10 years may be stretching it, it all depends on fuel costs, but they would be the next class to go, IMHO.