We accepted a 125% FCC for the cancellation. Should I be worried about RCL filing bankruptcy before I can use it?

[Nachosdelux]

The Cruise industry (in general) does not employ many Americans, and is definitely not crucial to the economy (like the airlines.)  Odds are against a cruise industry bailout from the US government/taxpayers.  There will be large cruise lines going out of business, and consolidation, just like in the airline industry after 9/11.

[Fouremco]

13 minutes ago, WonderMan3 said:

 

No, our government should not be bailing out companies who choose to operate basically everything out of the U.S. but register everything elsewhere to skirt a lot of laws and regulations.

FOC registry is a practice that has been in play, in one form or another, since the days of the Romans. Following the American Revolutionary War, merchantmen flying the flag of the fledgling United States quickly found it offered little protection against attack by Barbary pirates – many responded by seeking to transfer their registry back to Great Britain. The reasons vary, but the practice continues and is globally recognized. It's also perfectly legal, just like offshore banking. 

 

The cruise industry contributes billions of dollars annually to the US economy and provides many thousands of jobs to Americans. You might want to ask the residents of Fort Lauderdale, Miami or Seattle if they'd prefer the cruise industry to close shop or for the government to provide some form of bailout. 

 

As a Canadian, I've no financial interest in this at all, but as an unbiased observer, I can see the potential benefits of a bailout.

[WonderMan3]

9 minutes ago, Fouremco said:

FOC registry is a practice that has been in play, in one form or another, since the days of the Romans. Following the American Revolutionary War, merchantmen flying the flag of the fledgling United States quickly found it offered little protection against attack by Barbary pirates – many responded by seeking to transfer their registry back to Great Britain. The reasons vary, but the practice continues and is globally recognized. It's also perfectly legal, just like offshore banking. 

 

The cruise industry contributes billions of dollars annually to the US economy and provides many thousands of jobs to Americans. You might want to ask the residents of Fort Lauderdale, Miami or Seattle if they'd prefer the cruise industry to close shop or for the government to provide some form of bailout. 

 

As a Canadian, I've no financial interest in this at all, but as an unbiased observer, I can see the potential benefits of a bailout.

 

As the poster above you mentioned, it is not a necessary industry like the airlines or the auto industry. As they also said, it is likely that if this goes on long enough, one or more cruise lines will go belly up and we will see a consolidation. At the minimum, some of the larger cruise lines may need to trim down their fleet and sell off some ships to help their finances. They need to figure it out without a bailout. I don't see the cruise line industry vanishing so there will still be jobs to be had in the incremental business areas like hotels and restaurants in port areas.

[Fouremco]

8 minutes ago, WonderMan3 said:

 

As the poster above you mentioned, it is not a necessary industry like the airlines or the auto industry. As they also said, it is likely that if this goes on long enough, one or more cruise lines will go belly up and we will see a consolidation. At the minimum, some of the larger cruise lines may need to trim down their fleet and sell off some ships to help their finances. They need to figure it out without a bailout. I don't see the cruise line industry vanishing so there will still be jobs to be had in the incremental business areas like hotels and restaurants in port areas.

I view it as a simple question of return on investment. If a $1B bailout results in continued employment (both direct and indirect) and $1B+ fed back into the economy, it's worth considering. Without all of the data, though, it's hard to determine what the outcome might be either way. I fully respect you opinion, I'm just not sure that I agree with it.

[cruisestitch]

Liberian?????  Clock_8 please explain.

[Fouremco]

1 hour ago, cruisestitch said:

Liberian?????  Clock_8 please explain.

What is there to explain? RCCL is incorporated in Liberia even though it maintains its HQ in Miami.

[JOHN474]

 

If a FCC is your only option.... hope for the best. If you can take all or some in CASH .... it would be wise to take the cash NOW. Of course there is a chance RCI and the other cruise lines, could indeed go bankrupt. Since I got partial FCC on 5 cruises, I am hoping for the best. If you are lucky enough to be able to get cash, TAKE IT NOW. I agree with others.

[frteach]

I am curious to know where one of the posters on this thread got the info that the 125% FCC cannot be applied to a cruise that is already booked for this year or next. I paid for a cruise this year that will probably not be possible, and booked a similar one for next year, and I was assured that if I chose the option of FCC, it could indeed be applied to any cruise I had up to Dec. 31, 2021. RCI is a huge corporation, and I am not worried about bankruptcy. 

[Fouremco]

@frteach, a couple of Celebrity reps have told posters that the FCC can't be applied to existing bookings. Inconsistent information from reps is nothing new, and even less surprising in the current environment of changing policies. 

[NantahalaCruiser]

5 hours ago, Fouremco said:

I view it as a simple question of return on investment. If a $1B bailout results in continued employment (both direct and indirect) and $1B+ fed back into the economy, it's worth considering. Without all of the data, though, it's hard to determine what the outcome might be either way. I fully respect you opinion, I'm just not sure that I agree with it.

I doubt that indirect cruise employment would be improved by a bailout. Even if one or more of the major cruise lines is forced into bankruptcy, with some type of ownership reorganization, I believe most of the ships will still sale under the reorganization regardless of the absence of a bailout.  Thus the US jobs in associated US port facilities would probably be no better off with a bailout as opposed to no bailout.

[JFontaine]

Even if the parent files for bankruptcy protection, I think there’s a good chance that they will reorganize, not liquidate, and emerge as an entity looking very similar. I don’t know who their lenders are, but it seems to me that the lenders will stand their best chance of recovery by letting the cruise line get back into business. And it will be an uphill battle to shed their Petrie dish image and attract cruisers. Therefore I don’t think they will stiff their customers who are holding FCC. They will need to fill their ships quickly, even if just for tips and ancillary income, and holders of FCC will be a target audience. That said, I’m not interested in the 25% credit to have to book under their rules. As my favorite politician here in NY said today, it’s about risk and reward. 
 

By the way, the bailout issue is not about where they are flagged, or domiciled, it’s that they somehow reportedly pay almost no US income tax, despite selling the majority of cruises here, and sailing many from here. 

Edited March 21, 2020 by JFontaine

[az_tchr]

Really simple. If you are worried about losing your money turn the 125% FCC into a refund if it truly bothers you.  Worry is a terrible thing. We all have enough stress today that is beyond our control.

[Georgia_Peaches]

13 hours ago, frteach said:

I am curious to know where one of the posters on this thread got the info that the 125% FCC cannot be applied to a cruise that is already booked

Same.  Not long ago I'm sure I read that it could be applied to a cruise that has already been booked.

[dabear]

RCCL is incorporated and registered in Liberia. Most cruise lines whether commercial or recreational are registered in certain jurisdictions such as Liberia, Malta, Bahamas, etc as they are favorable for libility etc. In addition, it permits crewed vessels to dock in multiple consecutive US ports without intermittent foreign stops.

In addition, lets use CC posts to add relevant & new comments instead of ones that repeat other posters or add nothing. Fouremco, you have been posting an extreme number of posts on all forums, some of which fit into this category. Please use discretion & please don't start argumentative replies. Thanks

[Fouremco]

29 minutes ago, dabear said:

RCCL is incorporated and registered in Liberia. Most cruise lines whether commercial or recreational are registered in certain jurisdictions such as Liberia, Malta, Bahamas, etc as they are favorable for libility etc. In addition, it permits crewed vessels to dock in multiple consecutive US ports without intermittent foreign stops.

In addition, lets use CC posts to add relevant & new comments instead of ones that repeat other posters or add nothing. Fouremco, you have been posting an extreme number of posts on all forums, some of which fit into this category. Please use discretion & please don't start argumentative replies. Thanks

To the extent that I've posted similar information on different threads, it's solely because the same questions are being asked on multiple threads. Granted, the information isn't always new, but it clearly is to the person asking it. 

[CulverCityCruisers]

14 hours ago, Fouremco said:

@frteach, a couple of Celebrity reps have told posters that the FCC can't be applied to existing bookings. Inconsistent information from reps is nothing new, and even less surprising in the current environment of changing policies. 

Inconsistent sounds like our government (US)

[jonthomas]

Please dont do the politics. Many of us think the government is doing an amazing job, under the circumstances  and no one could have done better.

[CulverCityCruisers]

41 minutes ago, Fouremco said:

To the extent that I've posted similar information on different threads, it's solely because the same questions are being asked on multiple threads. Granted, the information isn't always new, but it clearly is to the person asking it. 

here you go:

Liberia

 

Royal Caribbean Cruises Ltd.

(RCCL) is a global cruise holding company incorporated in Liberia and based in Miami, Florida, US. It is the world's second-largest cruise line operator, after Carnival Corporation & plc. As of March 2009, Royal Caribbean Cruises Ltd.

 

Royal Caribbean Cruises - Wikipedia

[wwcruisers]

On 3/20/2020 at 8:23 AM, Denny01 said:

Making financial suggestions And especially listening to them on this type of forum is Not the best idea. I can only say what I’ll do. 
 

if offered a 125% FCC or a full refund I’ll take the FCC. Once the Market starts to show a Real recovery, I’ll buy RCL stock. 
 

no real idea if those two things are smart even For Me to do but that’s my plan. Don’t take any advice from me. I’m just putting out my plans. 
 

den

 

Thanks, Den. Although I just had to cancel a charter jazz cruise (Celebrity Infinity), I'm NOT rushing out to cancel either of the two cruises I had previously booked. Fingers crossed that we don't end up losing the entire Alaska 'season', due to this outbreak.

 

And, -- for anyone wondering whether the cruise industry (as a whole) can survive this crisis, I have a reading assignment for you (if it's still in print): Krisoffer A. Garin's Devils on the Deep Blue Seas (the dreams, schemes, and showdowns that built America's cruise-ship empires). Now, I'm definitely not saying that the cruise industry is 'too big to fail' -- just that it's more resilient than many give it credit for.

[Doubt It]

On the HAL board is a thread where posters are noting the flag of convenience issue and how the cruise lines have benefited from it.

 

Some, myself included, have stated that if, if, there is a bailout of the cruise lines (should not be, they are not essential to the economy), it should come with the caveat they have to be registered in the countries that they operate from (offices, docking etc).

 

While I am not an American, I have sent this caveat recommendation to the attention of President Trump, the Democrats and Republicans. 

 

 

 

 

 

[melish27]

4 hours ago, Georgia_Peaches said:

Same.  Not long ago I'm sure I read that it could be applied to a cruise that has already been booked.

Me too. We've tentatively booked (through our TA) a 2021 replacement for our (soon-to-be-canceled) April 11 sailing, with down payment due April 8; the cost will be a lot more than our current cruise for a deck lower and similar perks (got a good deal this time, and the Infinity will be upgraded by next year), so if we can't apply a 125% FCC to it (again, once they cancel the April 11 sailing), we won't even consider it.

[az_tchr]

21 hours ago, Fouremco said:

I view it as a simple question of return on investment. If a $1B bailout results in continued employment (both direct and indirect) and $1B+ fed back into the economy, it's worth considering. Without all of the data, though, it's hard to determine what the outcome might be either way. I fully respect you opinion, I'm just not sure that I agree with it.

Then should Canada help too?  Several billion in economic benefit to especially Vancouver?  Same for Europe, especially Italy. Do understand Italy really has no $$.

[Fouremco]

55 minutes ago, az_tchr said:

Then should Canada help too?  Several billion in economic benefit to especially Vancouver?  Same for Europe, especially Italy. Do understand Italy really has no $$.

LOL. Absolutely, just as soon as they move their corporate HQ north of the border, add many more Canadian cruise ports and institute Canadian cruising 12 months of the year. I've some great ideas for winter shore excursions that our ski resorts would be very happy with. 🛳⛷

[meechee341]

On 3/20/2020 at 2:11 PM, Loracpin2 said:

There is an old saying.. "a bird in the hand is worth 2 in the bush." If you take the refund,  you are guaranteed to recoup what you paid for the cruise. If you take the FCC, with the need for the cruise lines to recoup their billions of loss, there is no guarantee you would be able to rebook a cruise similar to what you cancelled even with the increase to 125%.  

Excellent point!  I'd rather have my cash in hand than worry about all the stipulations X could put on how and when that FCC could be used.  I got a full refund last week and I'm happy I got my money back.  I can now wait and see what happens with the prices.  I have a suite booked for next year, so I can apply that money to that cruise.  

[Kylie]

Do you think the FCC can be used for a Cruise if we rebooked it for 2022?