Are vaccines the light at the end of the tunnel?

[Homosassa]

3 hours ago, Ken the cruiser said:

 

Thanks for the detailed explanation. We can all now get back to being excited about possibly going on a cruise as early as mid July if all goes well! 😎

 

 

Yes to cruising in July. I am booked on an MSC cruise leaving Miami the last week of July.

 

Side note: somewhere else on cruise critic, a poster gave a link to a Miami port statement that Miami port agreements with the cruise lines are expected to be summitted to the CDC by the end of next week.

 

 

3 hours ago, Ken the cruiser said:

Just to follow up so I'm clear with what you are suggesting.

 

Since the CDC updated their CSO guidance Thursday evening via a letter to the cruise lines with regards, in part, to bypassing simulated cruises if they can prove 95% of passengers and 98% of crew have been fully vaccinated, this new law when signed by the governor will not apply to the applicable cruise lines. Do I have that correct?

 

Yes, correct. An agreement with the CDC will override any Florida state laws. However, as I explained, both the Executive Order and proposed law has a loophole written into them which allows the enforcement of any federal or state mandate. 

[Ken the cruiser]

6 minutes ago, Homosassa said:

Side note: somewhere else on cruise critic, a poster gave a link to a Miami port statement that Miami port agreements with the cruise lines are expected to be summitted to the CDC by the end of next week.

It was referenced in post #5020 in this thread. Hopefully, that will be more good news to look forward to next week!

[K.T.B.]

22 hours ago, DSJ28 said:

I wonder how the 95% of passengers vaccinated is calculated.  Is it 95% of the maximum capacity?  Or 98% of actual capacity?  
 

What happens if more than 5% of the passengers on a particular voyage aren't vaccinated? Do enter a lottery at the port to see who gets onboard? 

 

 

 

 

Here's the thing though, on most ships, 5% of the passengers is about 100 people approximately.  Sounds to me they're taking the kids under 16 into account.  I might be wrong, it's just how it looks to me.

[Ken the cruiser]

More good news released today regarding crew members getting vaccinated.

 

Port Canaveral is the first U.S. port to sponsor COVID-19 vaccine distribution to port workers and vessel crew members in response to a Florida Public Health Advisory approved by Florida Governor Ron DeSantis and Surgeon General Scott A. Rivkees, MD issued on April 29 expanding vaccine eligibility to include individuals who are in the state for the purpose of providing good or services for the benefit of residents and visitors of the State of Florida.

 

https://www.cruiseindustrynews.com/cruise-news/24907-port-canaveral-first-u-s-port-to-support-covid-19-vaccinations-for-seafarers.html

Edited May 1, 2021 by Ken the cruiser

[cangelmd]

39 minutes ago, Ken the cruiser said:

More good news released today regarding crew members getting vaccinated.

 

Port Canaveral is the first U.S. port to sponsor COVID-19 vaccine distribution to port workers and vessel crew members in response to a Florida Public Health Advisory approved by Florida Governor Ron DeSantis and Surgeon General Scott A. Rivkees, MD issued on April 29 expanding vaccine eligibility to include individuals who are in the state for the purpose of providing good or services for the benefit of residents and visitors of the State of Florida.

 

https://www.cruiseindustrynews.com/cruise-news/24907-port-canaveral-first-u-s-port-to-support-covid-19-vaccinations-for-seafarers.html

Ken, there was an article on Al.com today about cruising. Our mayor was quoted as saying that all the full and part time port employees that came into contact with cruise passengers had already been vaccinated. That suggests to me that the port agreements  may be in place or close.

The agreements for quarantine facilities and for medical facilities in case of the worst is the part that might be difficult for a small port like ours - even with only one ship to worry about.

I don’t, however, think that much of the medical space will be needed if they figure out how to enforce the vaccine mandate.

[D C]

46 minutes ago, Ken the cruiser said:

More good news released today regarding crew members getting vaccinated.

 

Port Canaveral is the first U.S. port to sponsor COVID-19 vaccine distribution to port workers and vessel crew members in response to a Florida Public Health Advisory approved by Florida Governor Ron DeSantis and Surgeon General Scott A. Rivkees, MD issued on April 29 expanding vaccine eligibility to include individuals who are in the state for the purpose of providing good or services for the benefit of residents and visitors of the State of Florida.

 

https://www.cruiseindustrynews.com/cruise-news/24907-port-canaveral-first-u-s-port-to-support-covid-19-vaccinations-for-seafarers.html

That's a nice step in the right direction. 

Now... where do the majority of shipboard employees embark? I don't know. 

[Ken the cruiser]

10 minutes ago, cangelmd said:

Ken, there was an article on Al.com today about cruising. Our mayor was quoted as saying that all the full and part time port employees that came into contact with cruise passengers had already been vaccinated. That suggests to me that the port agreements  may be in place or close.

The agreements for quarantine facilities and for medical facilities in case of the worst is the part that might be difficult for a small port like ours - even with only one ship to worry about.

I don’t, however, think that much of the medical space will be needed if they figure out how to enforce the vaccine mandate.

I believe this might be the article. I thought this comment said a lot as my guess is there are too many families with children that like to cruise with Carnival for them to be able to get 95% of their passengers to be vaccinated for their initial restricted Phase 4 start-up cruises to be allowed to bypass the simulated cruises. But time will tell.

 

A Carnival Cruise Line spokesman said Friday that they are continuing to review the letter before providing further comment.

 

https://www.al.com/news/2021/04/95-passenger-vaccinations-required-before-cruise-restart-cdc-says-mobile-mayor-encouraged.html

[Ken the cruiser]

31 minutes ago, D C said:

That's a nice step in the right direction. 

Now... where do the majority of shipboard employees embark? I don't know. 

Just a guess, but the Edge is hanging out in St Johns, Antigua and the Equinox is near the Bahamas. My guess is they'll be flying many of their needed shipboard employees into those two locations from wherever they can find them, and then making their respective moves towards Ft Lauderdale, or maybe Port Canaveral first, when the time is right. But, as I said, that's just a guess.

 

Edited May 1, 2021 by Ken the cruiser

[ChutChut]

5 hours ago, Homosassa said:

 

Yes to cruising in July. I am booked on an MSC cruise leaving Miami the last week of July.

 

Side note: somewhere else on cruise critic, a poster gave a link to a Miami port statement that Miami port agreements with the cruise lines are expected to be summitted to the CDC by the end of next week.

 

 

Yes, correct. An agreement with the CDC will override any Florida state laws. However, as I explained, both the Executive Order and proposed law has a loophole written into them which allows the enforcement of any federal or state mandate. 

First, this is a complex legal issue. Much more involved than your comment re: the CDC. Fed, state, and local law all act in concert with respect to cruise line operations in Florida. Your statement with respect to a "loophole" is not quite that. The EO/law reflects no business can require any customer to provide certification of a covid vaccine, etc. However, it doesn't prevent businesses from instituting "screening protocols" in accordance with state AND fed law. That means a business (as long as it complies with state and fed law) may require a customer to take, for example, a covid test prior to entering the business or wear a mask, etc. However, it's clear no certification of vaccine is permitted. Now, it's in Florida's best interest to get the cruise industry up and running. I suspect something with be worked out b/t feds and state to allow operations to ramp up soon.

[TeeRick]

Here is a paper just published by the American Heart Association jointly with the American Stroke Association.  It gives population data of COVID-infection itself being a much higher risk (as much as 10x) of getting CVST than the vaccine-induced cases.  

 

Diagnosis and management of cerebral venous sinus thrombosis with vaccine-induced immune thrombotic thrombocytopenia

 

https://www.ahajournals.org/doi/pdf/10.1161/STROKEAHA.121.035564

[mimbecky]

15 hours ago, K.T.B. said:

 

Here's the thing though, on most ships, 5% of the passengers is about 100 people approximately.  Sounds to me they're taking the kids under 16 into account.  I might be wrong, it's just how it looks to me.

Just an FYI, Pfizer is hoping to have its vaccine EU approved for 12yrs  and up in June

Pfizer Requests Authorization to Use Vaccine in Young Teens - The New York Times (nytimes.com)

 

[Homosassa]

10 hours ago, ChutChut said:

First, this is a complex legal issue. Much more involved than your comment re: the CDC. Fed, state, and local law all act in concert with respect to cruise line operations in Florida. Your statement with respect to a "loophole" is not quite that. The EO/law reflects no business can require any customer to provide certification of a covid vaccine, etc. However, it doesn't prevent businesses from instituting "screening protocols" in accordance with state AND fed law. That means a business (as long as it complies with state and fed law) may require a customer to take, for example, a covid test prior to entering the business or wear a mask, etc. However, it's clear no certification of vaccine is permitted. Now, it's in Florida's best interest to get the cruise industry up and running. I suspect something with be worked out b/t feds and state to allow operations to ramp up soon.

Once again, as I have said in numerous posts,  read every word in the Executive Order and the entire proposed law (not just the Covid 19 section). Look at the definitions of the various terms, look at the exceptions given, and learn what is meant by public health measures and complying with said measures. Find and read every law or regulation that is referenced for the authority of the regulation or contains conforming amendments to bring it into agreement .

 

Those measures, including vaccinations for port workers and crew are already underway in Florida. While obtaining one may be voluntary, those workers who refuse the vaccination will have to accept any consequences of their refusals.

 

While some cruise lines may try to cruise without requiring vaccinations as stated by the CDC because their target market demographic includes those who can't or won't be vaccinated, the restrictions that will be in place for the on board experience will impact the cruise.

 

 

 

 

Edited May 1, 2021 by Homosassa

[TeeRick]

1 minute ago, mimbecky said:

Just an FYI, Pfizer is hoping to have its vaccine EU approved for 12yrs  and up in June

Pfizer Requests Authorization to Use Vaccine in Young Teens - The New York Times (nytimes.com)

 

It will likely get approved in that group.  But will parents get their kids vaccinated?  That will be interesting.

[TeeRick]

2 minutes ago, Homosassa said:

Once again, as I have said in numerous posts,  read every word in the Executive Order and the entire proposed law (not just the Covid 19 section). Look at the definitions of the various terms, look at the exceptions given, and learn what is meant by public health measures and complying with said measures.

 

Those measures, including vaccinations for port workers and crew are already underway in Florida. While obtaining one may be voluntary, those workers who refuse the vaccination will have to accept any consequences of their refusals.

 

While some cruise lines may try to cruise without requiring vaccinations as stated by the CDC because their target market demographic includes those who can't or won't be vaccinated, the restrictions that will be in place for the on board experience will impact the cruise.

 

 

 

 

I thank you for your opinion on this.  Reading these executive orders makes my brain hurt.  I'd rather read a scientific article.  Simpler to understand.  The bottom line is that political posturing aside, the state of FL will not act as an impediment to tourism and cruising.

[kearney]

16 hours ago, Ken the cruiser said:

Just a guess, but the Edge is hanging out in St Johns, Antigua and the Equinox is near the Bahamas. My guess is they'll be flying many of their needed shipboard employees into those two locations from wherever they can find them, and then making their respective moves towards Ft Lauderdale, or maybe Port Canaveral first, when the time is right. But, as I said, that's just a guess.

 

You know, I was thinking that perhaps they would bring vaccines onto the ships currently in the area... eg Bahamas, VI etc and then as they fly crew in from around the country... most likely to a large airport like Miami... that they would take those crew either up to Port Canaveral or to other closer locations for vaccination..before boarding ships. They will likely need the full 2 week post jab period to clean and prepare ships for passengers...anyway. While basic maintenance would have been done... the cabins and public areas will likely need a good scrub and dusting.... carpet cleaning etc. Guess the cruise lines need to take the logistical skills usually used for ordering food...to figure out the best way to get crews vaccinated and a place for them for the two weeks..until vaccine takes effect... best place..and cheapest..would be onboard.  

 

I wonder if ships will be limited to 7 day max... I assume they will keep that in effect until Oct/Nov... We are scheduled on an 11 day in Nov..so I hope that will still be a go.

[kearney]

4 hours ago, Homosassa said:

Once again, as I have said in numerous posts,  read every word in the Executive Order and the entire proposed law (not just the Covid 19 section). Look at the definitions of the various terms, look at the exceptions given, and learn what is meant by public health measures and complying with said measures. Find and read every law or regulation that is referenced for the authority of the regulation or contains conforming amendments to bring it into agreement .

 

Those measures, including vaccinations for port workers and crew are already underway in Florida. While obtaining one may be voluntary, those workers who refuse the vaccination will have to accept any consequences of their refusals.

 

While some cruise lines may try to cruise without requiring vaccinations as stated by the CDC because their target market demographic includes those who can't or won't be vaccinated, the restrictions that will be in place for the on board experience will impact the cruise.

 

 

 

 

Given what is happening in India... I suspect that any crew that makes it to Florida will accept the vaccine. I know that one if not all of the cruise lines have delayed bringing crew members from India... but if you come from a country with limited health facilities.. your concerns today about covid might be higher than concern for side effects... just a guess. Just watching the tragedy in India... it is a reminder of how terrible this virus can be...   At first my plan was to wait with vaccine to see if side effects developed as it rolled out...but in January.. when I had the opportunity I decided to go ahead... glad I did... second shot resulted in a bit of a fever..and DH developed a rash that took a month to clear up..but  still glad I did it.

[harkinmr]

49 minutes ago, kearney said:

Given what is happening in India... I suspect that any crew that makes it to Florida will accept the vaccine. I know that one if not all of the cruise lines have delayed bringing crew members from India.

The US announced a ban on all non-US citizen travel from India today.  No Indian crew will be coming through US airports or seaports to work on cruise ships. It's likely that all the cruise lines will end up not taking any crew from that country just as Royal Caribbean has done.

Edited May 1, 2021 by harkinmr

[LGW59]

2 minutes ago, harkinmr said:

The US announced a ban on all non-US citizen travel from India today.  No Indian crew will be coming through US airports or seaports to work on cruise ships. It's likely that all the cruise lines will end up not taking any crew from that country just as Royal Caribbean has done.

Such a truly tragic situation for those lovely people, their government has totally failed them!  

[harkinmr]

7 minutes ago, LGW59 said:

Such a truly tragic situation for those lovely people, their government has totally failed them!  

It must be extremely hard to manage a pandemic in a country of 1.4 billion, where something like 70 million people live in abject poverty in slum conditions.  You are right, it is just tragic.

[Ken the cruiser]

3 hours ago, kearney said:

You know, I was thinking that perhaps they would bring vaccines onto the ships currently in the area... eg Bahamas, VI etc and then as they fly crew in from around the country... most likely to a large airport like Miami... that they would take those crew either up to Port Canaveral or to other closer locations for vaccination..before boarding ships. They will likely need the full 2 week post jab period to clean and prepare ships for passengers...anyway. While basic maintenance would have been done... the cabins and public areas will likely need a good scrub and dusting.... carpet cleaning etc. Guess the cruise lines need to take the logistical skills usually used for ordering food...to figure out the best way to get crews vaccinated and a place for them for the two weeks..until vaccine takes effect... best place..and cheapest..would be onboard.  

 

I wonder if ships will be limited to 7 day max... I assume they will keep that in effect until Oct/Nov... We are scheduled on an 11 day in Nov..so I hope that will still be a go.

That makes a lot of sense too, especially since Florida enhanced their statewide guidance on Thursday regarding who can now get vaccinated.

 

The start of vaccination efforts at Port Canaveral follows Thursday's Florida public health advisory approved by Florida Gov. Ron DeSantis and Surgeon General Dr. Scott Rivkees. That advisory expanded vaccine eligibility in Florida to include individuals who are in the state for purpose of providing good or services for the benefit of residents and visitors of Florida.

 

Maybe the Miami, Tampa and Ft Lauderdale port authorities will follow Port Canaveral's lead and setup vaccination sites for both their port workers and those crew members sitting on ships near their respective ports. Next week should be an interesting week with hopefully all kinds of good news moving things forward to the start of cruising out of US ports around mid July. 🤞

 

Port Canaveral becomes first U.S. port to start vaccinating cruise crews (floridatoday.com)

 

[LGW59]

18 minutes ago, Ken the cruiser said:

That makes a lot of sense too, especially since Florida enhanced their statewide guidance on Thursday regarding who can now get vaccinated.

 

The start of vaccination efforts at Port Canaveral follows Thursday's Florida public health advisory approved by Florida Gov. Ron DeSantis and Surgeon General Dr. Scott Rivkees. That advisory expanded vaccine eligibility in Florida to include individuals who are in the state for purpose of providing good or services for the benefit of residents and visitors of Florida.

 

Maybe the Miami, Tampa and Ft Lauderdale port authorities will follow Port Canaveral's lead and setup vaccination sites for both their port workers and those crew members sitting on ships near their respective ports. Next week should be an interesting week with hopefully all kinds of good news moving things forward to the start of cruising out of US ports around mid July. 🤞

 

Port Canaveral becomes first U.S. port to start vaccinating cruise crews (floridatoday.com)

 

I was a naysayer but I am def starting to believe that cruising will be back to almost "normal" in late 2021.  It will look different for sure, less capacity etc, but it is going to resume from US ports.

Edited May 1, 2021 by LGW59

[Ken the cruiser]

Just now, LGW59 said:

I was a naysayer but I am def starting to believe that cruising will be back to almost "normal" in late 2021.  It will look different for sure, less capacity etc, but it is going to resume.

I hear you. When the CDC did their compromise thing on Thursday and all the positive comments coming from the cruise line CEOs that followed, for the DW and myself it was like the feeling we got after our first shot! Who knew cruising could become so addictive!! 😎

[larrywizzit]

I’m a bit confused on one issue and forgive me if this has been addressed already in this rather long thread.

 

Didn't the governor of Florida refuse to allow businesses operating there to require proof of vaccination? Yes I know that cruise ships are flagged in other countries but Florida Port Authorities are local to the State.  

[Ken the cruiser]

5 minutes ago, larrywizzit said:

I’m a bit confused on one issue and forgive me if this has been addressed already in this rather long thread.

 

Didn't the governor of Florida refuse to allow businesses operating there to require proof of vaccination? Yes I know that cruise ships are flagged in other countries but Florida Port Authorities are local to the State.  

There have been quite a few opinion posts on this issue, but may I suggest you go to the previous page and start reading from post #5043. @Homosassaprovides some very good insight regarding the Florida Governor's EO as well as the applicability of potential law passed a few days ago as they relate to cruising starting back up in Florida and the requirement to be vaccinated. 

[TeeRick]

18 hours ago, kearney said:

You know, I was thinking that perhaps they would bring vaccines onto the ships currently in the area... eg Bahamas, VI etc and then as they fly crew in from around the country... most likely to a large airport like Miami... that they would take those crew either up to Port Canaveral or to other closer locations for vaccination..before boarding ships. They will likely need the full 2 week post jab period to clean and prepare ships for passengers...anyway. While basic maintenance would have been done... the cabins and public areas will likely need a good scrub and dusting.... carpet cleaning etc. Guess the cruise lines need to take the logistical skills usually used for ordering food...to figure out the best way to get crews vaccinated and a place for them for the two weeks..until vaccine takes effect... best place..and cheapest..would be onboard.  

 

I wonder if ships will be limited to 7 day max... I assume they will keep that in effect until Oct/Nov... We are scheduled on an 11 day in Nov..so I hope that will still be a go.

I think now that cruise lines will be involved in arranging vaccines for their crew and staff and also port workers.  The cruise lines should also put pressure or even a requirement that the local tours that they arrange have local tour operators having a vaccine too.  I would hope that the Caribbean islands that have agreed to home port ships or have ship visits will make it a priority to get their citizens vaccinated.  There is also timing.  J&J vaccine takes 6 weeks from the shot.  The Pfizer vaccine takes 8 weeks from the first shot.  The Moderna vaccine takes 10 weeks from the first shot.  These times are the definition of "fully vaccinated" from the USA CDC perspective.  So crew members on ships like Millennium sailing in early June need to be vaccinated by now (May) for even the J&J vaccine.