Are vaccines the light at the end of the tunnel?

[TeeRick]

Pfizer vaccine might be approved in the USA in kids 5-11 years by end of summer.  It is widely anticipated that kids 12-15 will be approved later this week.  So the risk of cruising with unvaccinated kids could be less and less.

 

https://www.cnbc.com/2021/04/30/biontech-expects-covid-vaccine-data-on-kids-ages-5-to-11-as-early-as-end-of-summer.html

[Ken the cruiser]

1 hour ago, TeeRick said:

Ken the article mentions the ports of Miami, Port Canaveral and Galveston all vaccinating crew and workers.  What about Fort Lauderdale?  Have you seen anything on this key port? 

Since the Equinox just arrived at PortMiami with the Edge still is on its way there and since it's only 32 miles between the two ports, my unofficial guess is that workers at the Ft Lauderdale port, whom haven't already gotten their shots as well as crew on ships scheduled to potentially sail on either simulated or Phase 4 restricted cruises out of Ft Lauderdale in July, will be allowed to get their vaccines at PortMiami. But, of course, this is just a guess.

 

CELEBRITY EQUINOX Current Location (cruisemapper.com)

 

Celebrity Edge Itinerary, Current Position, Ship Review | CruiseMapper

 

distance between Port everglades and portmiami - Bing

 

 

[charliesdad63]

On 5/1/2021 at 9:41 AM, Homosassa said:

While some cruise lines may try to cruise without requiring vaccinations as stated by the CDC because their target market demographic includes those who can't or won't be vaccinated, the restrictions that will be in place for the on board experience will impact the cruise.

 

 

 

 

What happens when guests from cruise lines that are not requiring the shots (Carnival, Holland Am) interact with guests of all the other cruise lines ? Are guests of different lines going to be mingling in restaurants, bars, shops? Could be a way of introducing the virus to the other ships. I know the odds are long but it could happen.

Edited May 3, 2021 by charliesdad63

[TeeRick]

2 minutes ago, charliesdad63 said:

What happens when guests from cruise lines that are not requiring the shots (Carnival, Holland Am) interact with guests of all the other cruise lines ? Are guests of different lines going to be mingling in restaurants, bars, shops? Could be a way of introducing the virus to the other ships. I know the odds are long but it could happen.

This is about the same risk as a fully vaccinated person going into a restaurant, bar or shop in your home area.   How do you know who you are mingling with at where you live on a daily basis?  Nobody has a scarlet V tattooed on their forehead.  If you are vaccinated and on shore and abide by the rules as recently updated by the CDC, there should be no problem for you.  If others choose not to be vaccinated even with abundant vaccine available in the US, then they are at risk.  Not you.

[Jeremiah1212]

1 hour ago, Ken the cruiser said:

Since the Equinox just arrived at PortMiami with the Edge still is on its way there and since it's only 32 miles between the two ports, my unofficial guess is that workers at the Ft Lauderdale port, whom haven't already gotten their shots as well as crew on ships scheduled to potentially sail on either simulated or Phase 4 restricted cruises out of Ft Lauderdale in July, will be allowed to get their vaccines at PortMiami. But, of course, this is just a guess.

 

CELEBRITY EQUINOX Current Location (cruisemapper.com)

 

Celebrity Edge Itinerary, Current Position, Ship Review | CruiseMapper

 

distance between Port everglades and portmiami - Bing

 

 

 

Michael Bayley posted on Facebook this Saturday that Equinox and Liberty will be at MIA today (5/3) for vaccinations. Equinox is still scheduled (??) to do Caribbean cruises from Fort Lauderdale in July. Liberty is scheduled from Galveston in July. I suspect they would encourage port employees to get vaccinated elsewhere if they can and save those vaccines for ship crew. 

 

Equinox is in port and Liberty should be arriving soon. 

[jgmorgan]

Relevant language from Florida Senate Bill 2006 (2021):

 

(1) A business entity, as defined in s. 768.38 to include any business operating in this state, may not require patrons or customers to provide any documentation certifying COVID-19 1124 vaccination or post-infection recovery to gain access to, entry upon, or service from the business operations in this state. This subsection does not otherwise restrict businesses from instituting screening protocols consistent with authoritative or controlling government-issued guidance to protect public health.

[ChutChut]

36 minutes ago, jgmorgan said:

Relevant language from Florida Senate Bill 2006 (2021):

 

(1) A business entity, as defined in s. 768.38 to include any business operating in this state, may not require patrons or customers to provide any documentation certifying COVID-19 1124 vaccination or post-infection recovery to gain access to, entry upon, or service from the business operations in this state. This subsection does not otherwise restrict businesses from instituting screening protocols consistent with authoritative or controlling government-issued guidance to protect public health.

But what does "operating in this state" mean? I mean lines like Princess, Disney, etc. have corporate offices in Florida, etc., so would that satisfy the "operating in" language? I'm also reading this to mean any business may institute other methods of screening such as masks, social distancing, etc. but no cert. of vaccination status.

[ChutChut]

3 hours ago, TeeRick said:

This is about the same risk as a fully vaccinated person going into a restaurant, bar or shop in your home area.   How do you know who you are mingling with at where you live on a daily basis?  Nobody has a scarlet V tattooed on their forehead.  If you are vaccinated and on shore and abide by the rules as recently updated by the CDC, there should be no problem for you.  If others choose not to be vaccinated even with abundant vaccine available in the US, then they are at risk.  Not you.

Not necessarily true. Even the vaccinated have some risk of infection and bringing it back on the ship to infect others. Many who cruise are immuno-compromised and, even with a vaccination, may have more severe reaction. No vaccine is 100%. There are young, healthy people who have virtually no risk of getting it. There are elderly vaccinated people with comorbidities who still are at a higher risk of getting it and getting a worse reaction. There always is risk.

[TeeRick]

1 minute ago, ChutChut said:

Not necessarily true. Even the vaccinated have some risk of infection and bringing it back on the ship to infect others. Many who cruise are immuno-compromised and, even with a vaccination, may have more severe reaction. No vaccine is 100%. There are young, healthy people who have virtually no risk of getting it. There are elderly vaccinated people with comorbidities who still are at a higher risk of getting it and getting a worse reaction. There always is risk.

Ok ChutChut.  I guess I need to learn more about vaccines.

[D C]

15 minutes ago, ChutChut said:

Not necessarily true. Even the vaccinated have some risk of infection and bringing it back on the ship to infect others. Many who cruise are immuno-compromised and, even with a vaccination, may have more severe reaction. No vaccine is 100%. There are young, healthy people who have virtually no risk of getting it. There are elderly vaccinated people with comorbidities who still are at a higher risk of getting it and getting a worse reaction. There always is risk.

What exactly is the risk we're talking about?  Risk of simply contracting covid after being vaccinated, or the risk of also becoming hospitalized or dead from covid after being vaccinated?

 

And what is an acceptable level of risk for those?  You're right, no risk is ever zero, so there must be some level at which the risk vs reward tips in favour of the reward and not the risk. 

[D C]

5 hours ago, Ken the cruiser said:

Since the Equinox just arrived at PortMiami with the Edge still is on its way there and since it's only 32 miles between the two ports, my unofficial guess is that workers at the Ft Lauderdale port, whom haven't already gotten their shots as well as crew on ships scheduled to potentially sail on either simulated or Phase 4 restricted cruises out of Ft Lauderdale in July, will be allowed to get their vaccines at PortMiami. But, of course, this is just a guess.

 

CELEBRITY EQUINOX Current Location (cruisemapper.com)

 

Celebrity Edge Itinerary, Current Position, Ship Review | CruiseMapper

 

distance between Port everglades and portmiami - Bing

 

 

Do we have any idea how many crew are onboard any of the ships right now?  Weren't they down to <100 in order to keep the ships alive and not cold? 

[Ken the cruiser]

6 minutes ago, D C said:

Do we have any idea how many crew are onboard any of the ships right now?  Weren't they down to <100 in order to keep the ships alive and not cold? 

No idea, but I would imagine you're probably correct as the CDC guidance that came out last Thursday along with Florida and other states all of the sudden allowing crew to get vaccinated, caught all of the cruise lines a little off guard, of which I'm sure none are complaining.

 

All I know is that the Edge has been hanging out around Antigua for the past few weeks and is now heading back towards Miami. The Equinox is now heading back to out to sea after being docked this morning at PortMiami for a period of time, maybe long enough to get their existing crew vaccinated. 

[ChutChut]

18 minutes ago, D C said:

What exactly is the risk we're talking about?  Risk of simply contracting covid after being vaccinated, or the risk of also becoming hospitalized or dead from covid after being vaccinated?

 

And what is an acceptable level of risk for those?  You're right, no risk is ever zero, so there must be some level at which the risk vs reward tips in favour of the reward and not the risk. 

I don't have an answer for what risk is acceptable. I know my own personal risk level but mileage varies. I mean the risk of contracting after vaccination and the more serious risk of those, while vaccinated, who have comorbidities that could exacerbate  the severity. 

[Suzanne123]

1 hour ago, ChutChut said:

But what does "operating in this state" mean? I mean lines like Princess, Disney, etc. have corporate offices in Florida, etc., so would that satisfy the "operating in" language? I'm also reading this to mean any business may institute other methods of screening such as masks, social distancing, etc. but no cert. of vaccination status.

Just thinking.  Our Lindblad cruise is requiring both vaccination and negative Covid test prior to boarding:

“Proof of Vaccination Card Upload

---

We will accept any FDA-recommended vaccine: Pfizer, Moderna, or Johnson & Johnson (Janssen). Guests will need to allow at least two weeks between the second vaccine dose (or only vaccine dose, if receiving the Johnson & Johnson vaccine) and the expedition departure date in order to allow the vaccine to be fully effective. For non-U.S. guests, we will accept any WHO-recommended vaccine. Blurry, incomplete, or poorly lit submissions will not be accepted.

Proof of vaccination can be uploaded at any time for future departure dates.”

 

Could cruise lines require proof of vaccination when you put down a deposit and refuse to complete the booking if you don’t comply?  

[Ken the cruiser]

30 minutes ago, ChutChut said:

I don't have an answer for what risk is acceptable. I know my own personal risk level but mileage varies. I mean the risk of contracting after vaccination and the more serious risk of those, while vaccinated, who have comorbidities that could exacerbate  the severity. 

Then those folks with comorbidities should really think hard about going on a cruise this summer. I know we have no concerns about cruising this summer as we're in our late 60s, in good health and will hopefully be leaving on July 24th on the Edge out of Ft Lauderdale. The reason we have no concerns is (1) we've both been vaccinated, (2) knowing my DW we'll probably be wearing masks in all indoor public areas, (3) we will definitely social distance from folks, (4) spend a lot of sea time on our balcony and (5) always dine at a table for 2. We'll pre-book cruise line excursions until we spend all of our OBC and wear masks and sit in the back of the bus while on those excursions. So, what are we missing as to why should be concerned about going on a cruise?

Edited May 3, 2021 by Ken the cruiser

[Ken the cruiser]

2 minutes ago, Suzanne123 said:

Just thinking.  Our Lindblad cruise is requiring both vaccination and negative Covid test prior to boarding:

“Proof of Vaccination Card Upload

---

We will accept any FDA-recommended vaccine: Pfizer, Moderna, or Johnson & Johnson (Janssen). Guests will need to allow at least two weeks between the second vaccine dose (or only vaccine dose, if receiving the Johnson & Johnson vaccine) and the expedition departure date in order to allow the vaccine to be fully effective. For non-U.S. guests, we will accept any WHO-recommended vaccine. Blurry, incomplete, or poorly lit submissions will not be accepted.

Proof of vaccination can be uploaded at any time for future departure dates.”

 

Could cruise lines require proof of vaccination when you put down a deposit and refuse to complete the booking if you don’t comply?  

That would be great! Hopefully Celebrity will come up with an app for that real soon to allow us to upload that information into our online accounts.

[hcat]

6 hours ago, TeeRick said:

Pfizer vaccine might be approved in the USA in kids 5-11 years by end of summer.  It is widely anticipated that kids 12-15 will be approved later this week.  So the risk of cruising with unvaccinated kids could be less and less.

 

https://www.cnbc.com/2021/04/30/biontech-expects-covid-vaccine-data-on-kids-ages-5-to-11-as-early-as-end-of-summer.html

Do you think there will be a rush  to vaccinate young  children?  

Unless schools require it,  or there are serious outbreaks, it might be quite awhile for that to take hold or  maybe after awhile studies will show it is completely  safe for youngsters.  Lots of college age students seem to be lining up,.schools are requiring it...hope no long range issues crop up down the road.

 

Even for grown ups, I read that  some mammograms are showing  up false pos  after the shots. No apparent danger but scary!

 

 

 

[Homosassa]

1 hour ago, TeeRick said:

Ok ChutChut.  I guess I need to learn more about vaccines.

LOL -And I need to learn how to read regulations and laws.

[Homosassa]

2 hours ago, jgmorgan said:

Relevant language from Florida Senate Bill 2006 (2021):

 

(1) A business entity, as defined in s. 768.38 to include any business operating in this state, may not require patrons or customers to provide any documentation certifying COVID-19 1124 vaccination or post-infection recovery to gain access to, entry upon, or service from the business operations in this state. This subsection does not otherwise restrict businesses from instituting screening protocols consistent with authoritative or controlling government-issued guidance to protect public health.

 

As I repeatedly have posted, you must read and understand every word.

 

Read the last sentence.

 

The CDC is issuing guidance to the cruise industry.  The CDC is federal and supersedes state law. The CDC guidance recommends vaccination of the crew and passengers.  If a cruise line has an agreement with the CDC to follow and implement the guidance, then vaccinations are required and the cruise line will implement screening protocols to make sure crew and passengers are in compliance (proof of vaccination).

 

[Ken the cruiser]

2 hours ago, Ken the cruiser said:

No idea, but I would imagine you're probably correct as the CDC guidance that came out last Thursday along with Florida and other states all of the sudden allowing crew to get vaccinated, caught all of the cruise lines a little off guard, of which I'm sure none are complaining.

 

All I know is that the Edge has been hanging out around Antigua for the past few weeks and is now heading back towards Miami. The Equinox is now heading back to out to sea after being docked this morning at PortMiami for a period of time, maybe long enough to get their existing crew vaccinated. 

Looks like the Equinox crew got their vaccinations this morning at PortMiami before heading back out to sea.

 

Crew Members Begin to Get Vaccinated as Cruise Industry Prepares Return (cruisehive.com)

Edited May 3, 2021 by Ken the cruiser

[morechances]

3 hours ago, Homosassa said:

 

As I repeatedly have posted, you must read and understand every word.

 

Read the last sentence.

 

The CDC is issuing guidance to the cruise industry.  The CDC is federal and supersedes state law. The CDC guidance recommends vaccination of the crew and passengers.  If a cruise line has an agreement with the CDC to follow and implement the guidance, then vaccinations are required and the cruise line will implement screening protocols to make sure crew and passengers are in compliance (proof of vaccination).

 

And none of that matters or means anything if the country that the ship is traveling to requires the passport or proof of vaccination.

Just because some US governor makes a rule, it does not mean that any other countries, or, any other state needs to obey it.

Simply put, if a cruise ship can not ask for proof, they will not be allowed to enter other waters.

So either they get the proof, or move to a more reasonable and sane state.

[D C]

4 hours ago, hcat said:

Do you think there will be a rush  to vaccinate young  children?  

Unless schools require it,  or there are serious outbreaks, it might be quite awhile for that to take hold or  maybe after awhile studies will show it is completely  safe for youngsters.  Lots of college age students seem to be lining up,.schools are requiring it...hope no long range issues crop up down the road.

 

Even for grown ups, I read that  some mammograms are showing  up false pos  after the shots. No apparent danger but scary!

 

 

 

If there is a push to vaccinate kids, it will merely show how irrational people are with new risks.  They have minimal risk of illness and death and don't present a huge risk to adults (who can be vaccinated anyhow). 

 

Those doses are best used by shipping them to other countries in need. 

[markeb]

27 minutes ago, D C said:

If there is a push to vaccinate kids, it will merely show how irrational people are with new risks.  They have minimal risk of illness and death and don't present a huge risk to adults (who can be vaccinated anyhow). 

 

Those doses are best used by shipping them to other countries in need. 

More likely, they will become the predominant disease group. That’s basically math: as the older population that was most at risk before vaccination becomes immune, younger risk groups will predominate. Absolute numbers may stay low, but if kids become the largest unvaccinated population, they’ll make up the majority of hospitalizations and deaths. That’s already happened with other age groups. And the 30-55, for instance, is just bigger. Arguably, you might as get ahead of that effect by vaccinating kids. 

 

 

[Charles4515]

3 hours ago, markeb said:

More likely, they will become the predominant disease group. That’s basically math: as the older population that was most at risk before vaccination becomes immune, younger risk groups will predominate. Absolute numbers may stay low, but if kids become the largest unvaccinated population, they’ll make up the majority of hospitalizations and deaths. That’s already happened with other age groups. And the 30-55, for instance, is just bigger. Arguably, you might as get ahead of that effect by vaccinating kids. 

 

 

The virus needs to feed so it is going to go after the unvaccinated, Kids need to be vaccinated. 
 

 

[4774Papa]

16 hours ago, ChutChut said:

Not necessarily true. Even the vaccinated have some risk of infection and bringing it back on the ship to infect others. Many who cruise are immuno-compromised and, even with a vaccination, may have more severe reaction. No vaccine is 100%. There are young, healthy people who have virtually no risk of getting it. There are elderly vaccinated people with comorbidities who still are at a higher risk of getting it and getting a worse reaction. There always is risk.

ChutChut,

What is the risk of dying from COVID19 for a healthy vaccinated person?

https://guardian.ng/opinion/risks-of-covid-19-infection-after-vaccination/