Veendam and Maasdam sold

[albingirl]

Really loved the Atlantic Adventure on the Maasdam (42 days) and the Veendam (49 days), and have sailed, with great happiness on the Rotterdam, as well.  Loved the size and ports of call on the smaller ships and will miss them.  Just had the Amazon trip (32 days) canceled on the Amsterdam in October 2021.  However, I am sure we will find something we like along the way.

[Crazy For Cats]

10 minutes ago, YXU AC*SE said:

 

Already done -- sort of, where possible.    Scott. 

 

source: https://gohal.com/app/uploads/2020/07/MARV-Impacted-Sailing-List-with-Alternatives-7.15.2020.xlsx

 

Thanks for sharing this document.  It tells me what I needed to know.

[Infi]

Like so many others here, we are incredibly saddened by the sale of the Amsterdam, Maasdam, Rotterdam, and Veendam. Received the email message yesterday, as we were booked on the Amsterdam's holiday cruise this year. Feeling grateful today that our last HAL cruise was the Amsterdam's final holiday cruise in December, the last full cruise she actually completed. Disembarkation morning sadness was alleviated slightly knowing we'd be back this December for her next holiday cruise, and on the Rotterdam this summer. As we all know, neither of those came to pass. We treasure the memories made aboard these ships - there will never be ships quite like them again.  

 

We've sailed only the Prinsendam, S-class, and R-Class since 2012, consciously choosing to vote with our feet about what ships and experience we enjoyed the most. This is the end of an era for cruising on HAL, and I'm very curious (and a little nervous) to see how they will proceed going forward. 

 

Edited July 16, 2020 by Infi

[Infi]

On another note, does anyone know how or if the crew was informed about the sale? Spoke with a few current and former crew yesterday, and most weren't aware the sale had been made. If they weren't given a slight heads up and had to find out via a blog post, that's incredibly poor on HAL's part. This is their livelihood and an employer should inform them of any major decisions made.

 

With HAL decreasing their fleet size by 4 ships (essentially 20%!) overnight, not only does this create a lot of holes for future deployments and itineraries, it also eliminates many positions onboard. I'm sure the pandemic will make many reconsider their decision to work on ships, but I think there are many who are waiting for the opportunity to return to work. With so many positions gone (and across all lines, not just HAL), where will they go?

[Mary229]

I have a sneaking suspicion that CCL put out a discrete notice to some CEOs saying make a bid on whatever appeals to you.  There will be no rhyme nor reason to what gets sold, it will be all about which ship gets an offer.  Selling what people want to buy is how you liquidate!

Edited July 16, 2020 by Mary229

[iancal]

My sympathies are with those employees, direct or indirect, who have been or will be impacted. Certainly there will still be positions available on those ships that have simply changed hands.  Not so of course on those that will be scrapped.

 

I believe what we are seeing is a recognition that smaller (and older) ships are no longer compatible or financially viable in the competitive mass market cruise line  environment.  Those smaller ships will probably exist in smaller cruise lines who focus on the market segment.  HAL did not get rid of these ships because they were big money makers.

Edited July 16, 2020 by iancal

[Mary229]

5 minutes ago, iancal said:

My sympathies are with those employees, direct or indirect, who have been or will be impacted. Certainly there will still be positions available on those ships that have simply changed hands.  Not so of course on those that will be scrapped.

 

I believe what we are seeing is a recognition that smaller (and older) ships are no longer compatible or financially viable in the competitive mass market cruise line  environment.  Those smaller ships will probably exist in smaller cruise lines who focus on the market segment.  HAL did not get rid of these ships because they were big money makers.

Their mortgage was paid and all they had were operating expenses.  Sometimes it is not only the price, there can be other trade offs like swapping of berths, inclusion in ports.  Airlines frequently do deals based on gaining or removing gates

Edited July 16, 2020 by Mary229

[Sir PMP]

7 minutes ago, iancal said:

My sympathies are with those employees, direct or indirect, who have been or will be impacted. Certainly there will still be positions available on those ships that have simply changed hands.  Not so of course on those that will be scrapped.

 

I believe what we are seeing is a recognition that smaller (and older) ships are no longer compatible or financially viable in the competitive mass market cruise line  environment.  Those smaller ships will probably exist in smaller cruise lines who focus on the market segment.  HAL did not get rid of these ships because they were big money makers.

We'll see how well they do with the big ships and less ports, there are a lot of small ship lines out there that do very well..

[YXU AC*SE]

Some excerpted commentary from last week's results call which may prove elucidating wrt [HAL's] older / lower capacity ships.   Scott. 

 

source: https://www.fool.com/earnings/call-transcripts/2020/07/10/carnival-corp-plc-ccl-q2-2020-earnings-call-transc.aspx

 

 

Arnold W. Donald -- President and Chief Executive Officer

Our overriding financial objective going forward is to maximize cash generation, at the same time, we're focused on staggering the reintroduction of capacity, which will help to manage yields. Now this is even more relevant since historically we've had only two levers to pull in the down cycle; occupancy and rate. In this environment, we will have a third capacity. Capacity will be the third real-time demand lever we can leverage to produce the best short- and long-term outcomes.

 

Our long-term prospects are especially bright, given we've moderated our overall capacity. We've shed less-efficient vessels and lowered our overall cost base. We've reduced near-term capacity, and going forward we introduce newer, far more efficient vessels over time in line with demand generation. Based on the actions we've taken to date, our fleet will not return to 2020 second quarter capacity level until 2022, at the earliest, and we'll be inherently more efficient with a roughly 10% larger average berth size and reduced average age.

 

David Bernstein -- Chief Financial Office and Chief Accounting Officer

Just kind of frame the overall picture. Generally speaking, the breakeven point in terms of occupancy for cash flow generation at the ship level is probably somewhere in the 30% to 50% range, depending on the size of the ship.

 

So, as Arnold said, if we start a little below 50 as we work our way up, those initial ships are probably at the lower end of that scale, and we will be generating positive cash flow. But I want to try to give you a little bit of an example of the power of the cash flow generation of our business. And -- but I don't have a forecast for 2020, and I can't provide you guidance. Let me try to use the 2019 actuals to kind of help you understand what's the situation we're in?

 

So, if I look at the 2019 actuals, and I say how many ships would we have had to operate to have a cash flow breakeven? The number is about 15 ships. The top-15 ships probably generate about 30%, 31% of our cash flow. And of course, I guess, if I have to account for the fact that we have ships -- the rest of the ships would be in pause status maybe have got to operate 25 of the ships and our fleet to generate a little over 40% of our cash flow in order to cover the pause cause costs for the rest in the fleet, and all of our shoreside SG&A.

 

And we would still be cash flow breakeven. And by the way, if we were only operating 25 ships, I don't think we'd be spending as much as we did in 2019 on SG&A. And when I did these calculations, I just assume the 2019 SG&A was flat. So it gives you a bit of context of the power of cash flow generation in our business.

 

 

 

[rotjeknor]

2 hours ago, Sir PMP said:

I stayed in that room looking out over the bow..

We too !

[rothbury]

The spreadsheet doesn't take into account the larger HAL ships can't sail out of Tampa.  They won't fit under the bridge.  So, as the earlier poster said, "There will be no sailings from Tampa".  I would assume the same is true for New England cruises, too.  They'll still sail St. Lawrence but they won't go as far as the smaller ships could go.

So many questions and no answers.  Our itinerary on the Veendam was scheduled to visit ports the larger ships can't get to.  That is unless they tender for some distance and I don't see that happening.

My advice to anybody cruising the Caribbean in the future is look at the ships schedule to see how many and how large the ships are in any given port at the same time as your ship.  Where you used to see 2 or 3 ships; I wouldn't be surprised to see 4 or 5 now.  All of these ships have to go somewhere.  Remember HMC with 2 ships?  It makes their plans to build a pier more logical now.  Makes you wonder how long this has really been in the planning.   Caribbean ports are already becoming overcrowded.  With Mardi Gras and Ryndam joining the fleet just adds to the crowding.  FCC isn't going to be too much good if you can't find someplace quiet to go.  Just not into ports with 10,000+ people.  Been there, done that.  Okay, I've said my peace.

[rotjeknor]

2 hours ago, VMax1700 said:

Did they 'sell' them or give them away?

"The seller credit will have a 5 years tenor with 3 years of zero amortization and subsequent annual installments of GBP 7.43 million at a 2.5% fixed interest cost, an interest rate which reflects the negotiated parameters of the transaction," Fred. Olsen stated. 

According to Rijnmond , a local news station in Rotterdam , the Rotterdam was sold for 37 million euros.

[VMax1700]

7 minutes ago, rotjeknor said:

According to Rijnmond , a local news station in Rotterdam , the Rotterdam was sold for 37 million euros.

That figure seems correct. But it seems (to me) that Carnival are financing the sale. 3 years of interest only and then 5 years of GBP 7.43 million.  Interest rate 2.5% compared to %%%% rate that Carnival recently borrowed at???

[TiogaCruiser]

Not sure if this thread is where it was posted, but there was a reference to going from 9 to 5 by 2022. So if I understand, that sounds like it might be the end of the remaining Rs and Vistas.

[rotjeknor]

13 minutes ago, VMax1700 said:

That figure seems correct. But it seems (to me) that Carnival are financing the sale. 3 years of interest only and then 5 years of GBP 7.43 million.  Interest rate 2.5% compared to %%%% rate that Carnival recently borrowed at???

Reading the report on the financial situation , CCL is not in immediate need of cash . But with 4 ships less in the fleet , operating costs are lowered so they gain on that end as well . And knowing you have 7,43 million pounds coming in 3 years for 5 years doesn’t seem a very bad deal. But the interest seems low. On the other hand , which bank pays 2,5 % ? At least it isn’t negative interest...

[YXU AC*SE]

19 minutes ago, TiogaCruiser said:

Not sure if this thread is where it was posted, but there was a reference to going from 9 to 5 by 2022. So if I understand, that sounds like it might be the end of the remaining Rs and Vistas.

 

Nine to five was in reference to the number of new hulls to be launched by the end of fiscal year 2022 for all of CCL. It was not a HAL-specific reference (other than the implied inclusion of Ryndam).    Scott. 

[DFD1]

From what I gather, Tampa is out of the picture for HAL for the foreseeable future.  I don't think they were very enthusiastic about Tampa anyway.

[TiogaCruiser]

8 minutes ago, YXU AC*SE said:

 

Nine to five was in reference to the number of new hulls to be launched by the end of fiscal year 2022 for all of CCL. It was not a HAL-specific reference (other than the implied inclusion of Ryndam).    Scott. 

Thank you. I totally read into that without understanding the context

[cbr663]

1 hour ago, iancal said:

....

 

I believe what we are seeing is a recognition that smaller (and older) ships are no longer compatible or financially viable in the competitive mass market cruise line  environment.  Those smaller ships will probably exist in smaller cruise lines who focus on the market segment.  HAL did not get rid of these ships because they were big money makers.

 

Arnold has stated publicly that they are getting rid of less efficient ships.  The older and smaller ships simply do not and did not produce the profits that the newer ships do.  If they did, the ships would still be there.

[DaveOKC]

About 5 years ago I heard from a HAL insider that the smaller ships were not as profitable so no more of them would be built.  It seems that HAL is taking advantage of the virus halting cruises to accelerate the changeover.  Smart move IMO. 

[Cruiser Bruiser]

5 hours ago, BigAl94 said:

I have been told that there is a strong possibilty that Veendam and Maasdam have been sold to Blue Sea Cruises http://blueseas-*****/#top

I would say you are correct. Look familiar? A photo from the website's home page:

 

 

Edited July 16, 2020 by Cruiser Bruiser
Clarity

[cwtravel]

Regarding Tampa, I am confused why the Vista Class or Signature Class ships are too large, especially since Celebrity is/was deploying one of their M- Class ships, which I believe are equal size or slightly larger than the HAL ships, to Tampa?

[rkacruiser]

18 hours ago, StormyWildcat said:

Seven years ago a trip on the Maasdam changed my life forever

 

18 hours ago, StormyWildcat said:

that piece of my heart that belonged to Maasdam will never be the same.

 

Precisely the way I feel about Rotterdam V.  My first cruise was aboard her.  I enjoyed two more over a period of years.  

 

During a VOV cruise not so long ago, I was able to make a visit to the Hotel Rotterdam V in the Netherlands.  As Tony Bennett once sang:  "I left my heart in San Francisco".  A significant part of my heart is on Rotterdam V.  

[rkacruiser]

17 hours ago, CabinBoy2020 said:

ou mention the 1937 Nieuw Amsterdam.  I sailed NY to Southhampton and back again on the ship in 1968 or 1969 (memory is a bit faulty).

 

I never sailed on S.S. Nieuw Amsterdam, but had the opportunity to visit the ship prior to a trans-Atlantic sailing in July, 1971 from Pier 40 in New York City.  Two public rooms stand out in my memory:  the Jungle Bar (I remember it as being dark and cozy) and the First Class Dining Room with a high, fabric (?) covered ceiling with an orchestra balcony (?).  

 

She was a beautiful ship who served her Country well during WW II as well as how many thousands of guests who were fortunate enough to sail on er.  

[richwmn]

35 minutes ago, cwtravel said:

Regarding Tampa, I am confused why the Vista Class or Signature Class ships are too large, especially since Celebrity is/was deploying one of their M- Class ships, which I believe are equal size or slightly larger than the HAL ships, to Tampa?

One of the Vistas, I believe Oosterdam, was in Tampa for a season