Are HAL's Prices Fair

[mcrcruiser]

 It seems to us that HAL has  set their prices fairly high even when the perks are included to entice post Covid 19 pax back to cruise with   them .

 

 What is your take on their new price structure ?

[Sir PMP]

Fair? No..

[mcrcruiser]

1 hour ago, Sir PMP said:

Fair? No..

Do you feel that they are too high in comparison say to Princess cruises to the same destination & days of cruising ?

 

 My concern is not just pricing but safety  because who knows how effective a vaccine will  be  &   would the cruise lines have testing l in place at ports   of departure  .Then what about ports the ship visits . Just so many if's

 

  

[AtlantaCruiser72]

Compared to both Princess and Celebrity (HAL’s nearest competitors) I often find HAL the best priced of the three in many markets.  They definitely are lower than NCL or Royal 95% of the time, though one could Argue HAL are not after their clients in general, nor are they looking to attract HAL’s clientele.  I’ve even seen HAL lower (without perks) than Carnival on numerous sailings.  That said, in markets where HAL have unique itineraries, or little competition, their per diems often increase dramatically.  It’s all relative to what the market will bear. 
 

Prior to COVID I felt ALL the lines were being rather bullish on 2021/22 pricing with significant increases In base fares as compared to 2019/20 (in some cases as much as 30%).  A strong economy was definitely making cruise line execs optimistic.  Going forward I don’t see much discounting in travel over the next 18-24 months as ALL suppliers will be hiking rates to make up for lower occupancies and several months of shutdowns.  Many have significantly increased debt to stay afloat, and we as consumers will be paying for that debt.

[AtlantaCruiser72]

To provide some basic fare analysis - I took a glance at 7 Night Caribbean Sailings for the weekend of 3/6-3/7 2021. All fares are lowest in market, no perks  whenever possible (some require a NRD - non refundable deposit) and include all taxes and fees.  All ships depart either FLL or MIA.  I used lowest available balcony pricing as baseline and used fares that are available to all guests, not including any past guest or travel agency discounts.

 

Royal        7Nt Western         Allure               XB gty        $1897.66       base fare $813pp

Princess  7Nt Eastern          Enchanted       BW             $1898.00       base fare $809pp

HAL          7Nt Eastern          Eurodam          VH              $1936.00      base fare $789pp

Carnival   7Nt Western         Magic               BL gty        $1967.28      base fare $829pp

Celebrity  7Nt Western         Edge                 1B              $2381.86       base fare $1049pp

NCL          7Nt Eastern          Joy                   BF               $3381.60       base fare $1449pp

Note - for NCL Joy - lowest fare was Free@Sea rate with two perks - included internet and shore ex promos as those have no service fees associated.  No Sailaway Balcony rate was available for this sailing.

 

As we can see HAL is sort of in the middle of the pack here.  Taxes for the HAL itinerary (4 ports of call) were more than Princess or Royal (with only 3 ports of call each), which is what led to them being slightly lower than HAL ($358 HAL, $280 Princess and $271.66 Royal).  HAL's base fare before tax was the lowest of the 6 lines at $789pp.

 

This of course is just one sailing in one market and I'm sure I could easily find another where HAL is the highest fare.  There are so many variables, but that said I still feel in most cases HAL very competitive.

[Mary229]

I think we are witnessing a price discovery event in the cruise industry.  There are new costs and uncertainties for the lines. The uncertainties are more than new rules and regulations but how large will the market share be upon resumption.    It will take them a while to find their way to profitability while maintaining market share.   I expect further consolidation.

 

Remember cruises don't just compete with other cruise lines, they also compete with timeshares, RV resorts, land based tours and all inclusives.  How many people purchased an RV or a timeshare.  Those people are likely lost to the cruise industry for at least 5 years while they maximize the value of their new acquisition.  I am sure many new retirees, which have always been a significant core group of cruises, have chosen other options.

 

 I visited my brother's resort campground last week.  He has sold more permanent "timeshare" spots this year than any other in his 40 year business.  Not only are they purchasing lots but they are sinking large sums of money into renovating their timeshare, something they can't take with them.  Those people won't be cruising for a while.  

Edited August 31, 2020 by Mary229

[DaveOKC]

2 hours ago, Mary229 said:

I think we are witnessing a price discovery event in the cruise industry.  There are new costs and uncertainties for the lines. The uncertainties are more than new rules and regulations but how large will the market share be upon resumption.    It will take them a while to find their way to profitability while maintaining market share.   I expect further consolidation.

 

Remember cruises don't just compete with other cruise lines, they also compete with timeshares, RV resorts, land based tours and all inclusives.  How many people purchased an RV or a timeshare.  Those people are likely lost to the cruise industry for at least 5 years while they maximize the value of their new acquisition.  I am sure many new retirees, which have always been a significant core group of cruises, have chosen other options.

 

 I visited my brother's resort campground last week.  He has sold more permanent "timeshare" spots this year than any other in his 40 year business.  Not only are they purchasing lots but they are sinking large sums of money into renovating their timeshare, something they can't take with them.  Those people won't be cruising for a while.  

Good post!  I think that long term demand will suffer from people changing habits to RVs, timeshares, etc.

[iancal]

Absolutely agree.  I suspect that this is one reason why cruise lines are pushing FCCs.  They want to keep customers ‘invested’ in cruising.

 

We always compare cruise prices to alternative land travel options. 

 

Where we live RV sales and recreational property sales are booming.  This, plus the reluctance of some people to fly or cruise when this is over  will no doubt have a negative impact on the industry in the future.

 

Edited August 31, 2020 by iancal

[SilvertoGold]

What I find interesting about HAL's prices: doing a basic look at cruises that interest us I find the Have It All promo often adds different amounts to the pricing (for the same extras) for inside, outside, balcony.  I compare pricing with and without the promo.  One cruise inside with the promo is $300 more than without, OV is $600 more with the promo than without and VH is $900 more with the promo than without.  Great way to make money :)

Edited August 31, 2020 by SilvertoGold

[iancal]

We learned a long time ago that cruise line sale prices are often meaningless.  The only price that matters to us the the bottom line price that we pay, net of all price adjustments, TA discounts, and less the value that we place on any inclusives.

[Ken the cruiser]

54 minutes ago, SilvertoGold said:

What I find interesting about HAL's prices: doing a basic look at cruises that interest us I find the Have It All promo often adds different amounts to the pricing (for the same extras) for inside, outside, balcony.  I compare pricing with and without the promo.  One cruise inside with the promo is $300 more than without, OV is $600 more with the promo than without and VH is $900 more with the promo than without.  Great way to make money 🙂

Are these price differences all associated with the same cruise?

[ontheweb]

1 hour ago, iancal said:

We learned a long time ago that cruise line sale prices are often meaningless.  The only price that matters to us the the bottom line price that we pay, net of all price adjustments, TA discounts, and less the value that we place on any inclusives.

We once found 3 cruises to Alaska that fit our timeframe and ports we wanted to see on the website of a TA we often use. All had different prices, but when we called and got actual price quotes as opposed to the ones showing on the site, the one that was the lowest price was the one with the highest price on the website.

[iancal]

It is very easy.  If someone feels that the prices are not fair than simply don't buy the product. 

[Ken the cruiser]

1 hour ago, SilvertoGold said:

What I find interesting about HAL's prices: doing a basic look at cruises that interest us I find the Have It All promo often adds different amounts to the pricing (for the same extras) for inside, outside, balcony.  I compare pricing with and without the promo.  One cruise inside with the promo is $300 more than without, OV is $600 more with the promo than without and VH is $900 more with the promo than without.  Great way to make money 🙂

I just reread your post and see these variations are in deed from the same cruise. This just reconfirms why we have switched to Celebrity, Oceania, Crystal and Princess, unless HAL offers a very special itinerary. 
 

We used to book vista suites and on occasion paid for an upsell to a NS with HAL, but found we could get better deals on similar category balcony and higher cabins on these other lines. But, to charge different prices for the same perk package based on cabin category is just wrong. 

[iancal]

This is exactly why we are not, and never plan to be, so called 'loyal' to any one cruise line or supplier.   

[Steve Q]

An article in the WSJ last week highlighted some of the issues MSC has experienced with their recent sailing. The article has a paywall so some will not be able to access it. Below, however, is just one quote:

 

“ROME—When one of the world’s biggest cruise lines, MSC Cruises SA, resumed sailing in the Mediterranean earlier this month, it tested all crew members and guests for the new coronavirus before letting them aboard the 5,000-person ship.

To minimize infection risk, the company has set up testing facilities in Italian ports, hired more medical staff and purchased its own machinery to process swab tests on board, should there be a need to test someone while at sea. Those efforts hurt the bottom line: Anti-Covid measures are costing MSC Cruises around €500,000 or $590,000 a week of travel, the company estimates.”

Clearly all cruise lines will be experiencing significant increases in their fixed expenses. In the end it will have to be the cruiser that covers those costs.

 

https://www.wsj.com/articles/cruise-ships-cautiously-resume-sailing-in-europe-after-deadly-outbreaks-11598616000?mod=searchresults&page=1&pos=1

 

 

 

[SilvertoGold]

1 hour ago, Ken the cruiser said:

Are these price differences all associated with the same cruise?

 

As you have noted, yes.

I can see that HAL would charge more for the promo for suites, as they receive wifi, too.  HAL may think the higher level stateroom the pax book, the more they drink :)  

Edited August 31, 2020 by SilvertoGold

[iancal]

We go one step further.  We price our cruises with out of country TA's or vendor country specific web sites.

 

The last big difference was an OZ/NZ cruise.  We saved net 30 plus percent by purchasing a late booking cruise directly from RCI in Australia over the best price that we could get from our US on line TA or from the RCI's North American website.  All it took was a phone call to Sydney.  Same product, same date, same cabin class.

 

Is that fair?  This is why we shop. You do need to be aware of the differences in country booking terms.

Edited August 31, 2020 by iancal

[SilvertoGold]

Excellent post! Good info.

 

"Late booking" has so much to do with it.  No comparison pricewise booking a month or 2 out as opposed to a year or more.  Our mantra is to book after final and are glad we have..

 

Everyone needs to choose their own personal comfort level, however.

[AtlantaCruiser72]

2 hours ago, SilvertoGold said:

What I find interesting about HAL's prices: doing a basic look at cruises that interest us I find the Have It All promo often adds different amounts to the pricing (for the same extras) for inside, outside, balcony.  I compare pricing with and without the promo.  One cruise inside with the promo is $300 more than without, OV is $600 more with the promo than without and VH is $900 more with the promo than without.  Great way to make money :)

have you done the maths to compare the base fare without perks to the fare with perks as a % increase vs $/guest/day analysis?  It may be that HAL are using a % increase that is consistent, and because of the price jump from inside to ocean view to verandah the difference between base and with perks could be substantial with that pricing formulation, especially on sailings where there is a significant price  jump from one meta category to another.
 

for example - if they were adding a 20% premium with perks vs without

inside base fare $1500 with perks $1800 ($300 increase)

outside base fare $3000 with perks $3600 ($600 increase)

verandah base fare $4500 with perks $5400 ($900 increase)
 

just a thought

[Ken the cruiser]

16 minutes ago, SilvertoGold said:

Excellent post! Good info.

 

"Late booking" has so much to do with it.  No comparison pricewise booking a month or 2 out as opposed to a year or more.  Our mantra is to book after final and are glad we have..

 

Everyone needs to choose their own personal comfort level, however.

We’re just the opposite. We plan 4 years out and book a cruise when it first comes out, so we can get the cabin we want at the introductory price. This way we can also capitalize on any cost reductions and/or promotions that come along which make sense for us to refare. But as you mentioned, everyone needs to choose their own comfort level. 

[cruisemom42]

7 hours ago, Mary229 said:

I visited my brother's resort campground last week.  He has sold more permanent "timeshare" spots this year than any other in his 40 year business.  Not only are they purchasing lots but they are sinking large sums of money into renovating their timeshare, something they can't take with them.  Those people won't be cruising for a while.  

 

4 hours ago, DaveOKC said:

Good post!  I think that long term demand will suffer from people changing habits to RVs, timeshares, etc.

 

2 hours ago, iancal said:

Where we live RV sales and recreational property sales are booming.  This, plus the reluctance of some people to fly or cruise when this is over  will no doubt have a negative impact on the industry in the future.

 

 

Are these people buying RVs and time shares the same market as cruisers though?

 

I know neither of those options holds any allure for me as a substitute for cruising and international travel (e.g., specialist tours or independent travel). 

[Ken the cruiser]

11 minutes ago, AtlantaCruiser72 said:

have you done the maths to compare the base fare without perks to the fare with perks as a % increase vs $/guest/day analysis?  It may be that HAL are using a % increase that is consistent, and because of the price jump from inside to ocean view to verandah the difference between base and with perks could be substantial with that pricing formulation, especially on sailings where there is a significant price  jump from one meta category to another.
 

for example - if they were adding a 20% premium with perks vs without

inside base fare $1500 with perks $1800 ($300 increase)

outside base fare $3000 with perks $3600 ($600 increase)

verandah base fare $4500 with perks $5400 ($900 increase)
 

just a thought

Anyway you spin it, that would still be a rip off in that the folks in a veranda would be paying $600 more for the exact same perks as those who booked an inside cabin. 

[mainelycruising]

Answering a question like this depends upon your perspective. We have sailed HAL many times, and I think we would agree that, in terms of being able to enjoy a cruise without spending an arm and a leg at every turn, HAL offers about the best value out there.  You are not 'nickel and dimed' at every corner.  

[iancal]

It comes down to buyer beware, shop wisely, and understand what you are buying compared to other offerings from the same or from different vendors.

 

It is hardly a rip off.  It is called marketing 101.    The prices are public, as is what is included with each offering.  You have a choice.   At the end of the day you can vote with your feet and book with another cruise line.

Edited August 31, 2020 by iancal