Norwegian is looking into Covid-19 vaccine requirement

[oteixeira]

4 minutes ago, ziggyuk said:

 

Del Rio said “It will certainly be a requirement for the crew”
I agree that it's hard to think how he will achieve that with the current rules but he stated they are looking at the idea of for customers but stated the crew were a certainty.

Current rules?  He can simply state it as a term of employment.  You can always turn the job down, you don't have to work for NCLH on any of his ships.  

[littlelulu01]

40 minutes ago, oteixeira said:

Current rules?  He can simply state it as a term of employment.  You can always turn the job down, you don't have to work for NCLH on any of his ships.  

Definitely.  It’s more about how does ncl procure the vaccine for a young, healthy crew that are demographically last in line to receive the vaccine.  If ncl has vaccines for crew they can start cruising with vaccinated passengers-  in theory there’s easily enough passengers vaccinated to make ship profitable by April.  Perhaps I’m wrong and crew qualifies as some sort of essential workers so can jump ahead in line?  

[hallux]

14 minutes ago, littlelulu01 said:

It’s more about how does ncl procure the vaccine for a young, healthy crew that are demographically last in line to receive the vaccine

NCL will need to get in line behind MLB - there's talk that there may be a requirement for players to be vaccinated before they start a season.

[oteixeira]

38 minutes ago, littlelulu01 said:

Definitely.  It’s more about how does ncl procure the vaccine for a young, healthy crew that are demographically last in line to receive the vaccine.  If ncl has vaccines for crew they can start cruising with vaccinated passengers-  in theory there’s easily enough passengers vaccinated to make ship profitable by April.  Perhaps I’m wrong and crew qualifies as some sort of essential workers so can jump ahead in line?  

Very good point I did not think of.  Maybe they need to have their own contract with one of the makers, outside of the governments, to get their own, which they can then give out as they deem fit.

[beerman2]

10 hours ago, oteixeira said:

Very good point I did not think of.  Maybe they need to have their own contract with one of the makers, outside of the governments, to get their own, which they can then give out as they deem fit.

Wouldn't that require another expense for the cruiselines, being able to store at a certain temperature and the shelf life?

 

It would be a great idea , the logistics might not work.

Edited December 17, 2020 by beerman2

[ziggyuk]

13 hours ago, oteixeira said:

Current rules?  He can simply state it as a term of employment.  You can always turn the job down, you don't have to work for NCLH on any of his ships.  

 

If you read the post I was responding to you will see.

[oteixeira]

1 hour ago, beerman2 said:

Wouldn't that require another expense for the cruiselines, being able to store at a certain temperature and the shelf life?

 

It would be a great idea , the logistics might not work.

Not all of these vaccines need to be stored in the polar ice cap.  Actually, my understanding is only the Pfizer one does.

[graphicguy]

On 12/16/2020 at 11:55 AM, hamrag said:

 

Nope, not here in the UK!

Really?  This is from their U.S. site....60-91 days before sailing you can get a refund.

 

https://www.ncl.com/no/en/about/cancellation-fee-schedule-mea

 

How is that different from where you book?

 

[CruiseMH]

On 12/14/2020 at 10:24 PM, BirdTravels said:

If you “sign” the contract, it is enforceable. 

Oops,sorry.I didn`t know that NCL contracts are above the law.

 

Could you please give me a source where you got the info from that contracts are valid even if they are against the law?

 

Edited December 17, 2020 by CruiseMH

[ziggyuk]

1 hour ago, graphicguy said:

Really?  This is from their U.S. site....60-91 days before sailing you can get a refund.

 

https://www.ncl.com/no/en/about/cancellation-fee-schedule-mea

 

How is that different from where you book?

 

 

This is correct if you book on the UK site there is no refund, the moment you book the deposit is non refundable. You might get a 14 day cooling off period as it's an internet sale and normal in the UK but not sure about that.

I have re-priced a cruise before but I had to factor in the loss of deposit. In the end it actually turned out to be a cruise that was cancelled so I re-priced and lost my initial deposit for the fun of it which I had not factored in.

Of course got the final deposit back as it was not my cancellation but the re-price deposit was long gone.

[Capitan Obvious]

Referring back to an earlier part of this thread where had issues when it was stated that COVID death numbers are being inflated, it is still going on today.

 

People dying of gunshot wounds are included in COVID death numbers being reported.

 

Read it:

https://denver.cbslocal.com/2020/12/15/grand-county-covid-deaths/

[graphicguy]

Look....I think some are trying to pushback on the requirement for getting the vaccine.  I have no issues with you.  I know the  contract that I've accepted when I booked stipulates that NCL can change the requirements as one of the terms of booking.  Even sailing out of the EU, I still had to accept the contract stating that the cruise lines' requirements can change and I accept those changes based on booking the cruise.

 

If you don't want to get the vaccine and want your fare, deposit, etc back, please let me know how that works for you.  I'd like to hear if and how successful you are/were.

 

To my knowledge, the terms of cancellations with NCL (or any other cruise lines) were pretty specific.  I got a refund for a cruise that was cancelled earlier this year, but NCL said they'd refund it.  I had another cruise booked that only allowed an FCC.  

[graphicguy]

2 hours ago, CruiseMH said:

Oops,sorry.I didn`t know that NCL contracts are above the law.

 

Could you please give me a source where you got the info from that contracts are valid even if they are against the law?

 

Can't understand how the contracts are against the law if you accept the terms once you book your cruise?  If the contract states that you accept that NCL can alter requirements, and you agreed to that by booking the cruise, how is that above the law?

[DwayneG]

If anyone (cruise lines, airlines, concerts) make the vaccine a requirement what will they do about children?  My understanding is that vaccine is only approved for ages 16+.

[nomad098]

1 hour ago, graphicguy said:

Look....I think some are trying to pushback on the requirement for getting the vaccine.  I have no issues with you.  I know the  contract that I've accepted when I booked stipulates that NCL can change the requirements as one of the terms of booking.  Even sailing out of the EU, I still had to accept the contract stating that the cruise lines' requirements can change and I accept those changes based on booking the cruise.

 

If you don't want to get the vaccine and want your fare, deposit, etc back, please let me know how that works for you.  I'd like to hear if and how successful you are/were.

 

To my knowledge, the terms of cancellations with NCL (or any other cruise lines) were pretty specific.  I got a refund for a cruise that was cancelled earlier this year, but NCL said they'd refund it.  I had another cruise booked that only allowed an FCC.  

 

It has nothing to do with the vaccine

 

The contract and terms and conditions are different depending on which market you book in.

 

If I book in the US and live in the UK, US law applies to my booking

If I book in the UK and live in the EU, UK law applies to my booking

If I book in the EU and live in the US, EU law applies to my booking

If I book in the EU and live in the UK, EU law applies to my booking

 

The laws covering contract law is different for different markets. If makes no difference where you sail from it's in which market you book that counts.

 

In the UK & EU if NCL change the terms and conditions of a booking for any reason they must either get my agreement or if I choose not to sail give a full cash refund. No arguments needed it's the law.

 

On a NCL cruise I was moved from an morning excursion to an afternoon one, this was not suitable I went to the excursions desk and asked why, they told me because they had overbooked the morning tour, I explained this was a breach of UK law and I had booked in the UK, the lady politely told me it was an American cruise line and American rules applied, I politely asked to see the manager and told her the same thing, she asked me to leave it with her. Later that day I received a phone call to tell me I was booked on the morning excursion and that a bottle of wine and chocolate covered strawberries would be sent to my stateroom and they were. The next day I saw the excursion manager who apologised profusely and explained she had spoken to the Miami office who made her aware that overbooking is not an excuse under UK law to change a booking, to do so would mean the possibility of criminal action and or a fine under UK law. NCL's terms and conditions said they could but because I booked in the UK the law said they couldn't. If I had booked in the US I would have to accept being bumped to the later tour. 

 

I had a KLM flight from Canada to the UK moved from a Saturday to a Sunday KLM's terms and conditions said they could do this but because I booked in the UK the law states that they need my agreement or I can have a full cash refund. I took the refund.

 

A contract will not stand if it does not meet the legal requirements of a countries laws in where the contract was agreed

 

To make having the covid-19 vaccine a requirement to cruise is a company policy not a legal requirement of a government. If it was a countries legal requirement to enter then NCL and all the other cruise lines would have no issues because the contract states you must have the correct vaccinations to meet a countries laws.

[nomad098]

56 minutes ago, DwayneG said:

If anyone (cruise lines, airlines, concerts) make the vaccine a requirement what will they do about children?  My understanding is that vaccine is only approved for ages 16+.

 

I am not sure about the US but the UK government have made it clear that if businesses choose to implement a vaccination requirement that they may run into problems with employment laws, disability laws and a whole raft of other laws and strongly urge them to consider their choices very carefully and seek legal advice first.

 

In the short to medium term any company that targets a family demographic but insists on a vaccination requirement will probably not survive without exemptions being made. 

 

We are not even sure yet in the UK that healthy under 50's will be offered the vaccine

 

So I guess no one knows for sure what future travel and entertainment requirements will be.

 

[HaveWeMetYet]

Looks like quite a few don't want the vaccine, at least not right away.

 

At one Chicago hospital where the city's first COVID-19 vaccine was administered on Tuesday, 40% of the staff said in a survey earlier this month that they would not take it.

 

In Maine, 40% of staff and 30% of residents at the state's larger nursing homes won't take the jab, according to an "informal discussion" conducted by the Maine Health Care Association.

 

EMTs are also at the front of the line for the vaccine, yet approximately 30% of those who travel with New York firefighters are resistant to getting it, according to Annthony Almojera, a lieutenant paramedic who's vice president of FDNY's EMS Officers Union Local 3631.

[oteixeira]

9 minutes ago, HaveWeMetYet said:

Looks like quite a few don't want the vaccine, at least not right away.

 

At one Chicago hospital where the city's first COVID-19 vaccine was administered on Tuesday, 40% of the staff said in a survey earlier this month that they would not take it.

 

In Maine, 40% of staff and 30% of residents at the state's larger nursing homes won't take the jab, according to an "informal discussion" conducted by the Maine Health Care Association.

 

EMTs are also at the front of the line for the vaccine, yet approximately 30% of those who travel with New York firefighters are resistant to getting it, according to Annthony Almojera, a lieutenant paramedic who's vice president of FDNY's EMS Officers Union Local 3631.

It's there choice, but these examples are not the norm.  There are many many more articles about people lining up and excited to finally have a defense when they are working in their high risk jobs.  

And hey, as a healthy guy who is not a senior, this just means all the earlier I can get my shot.  Let's go, opt out, I'm over here waiting impatiently for my turn.

[nomad098]

1 minute ago, HaveWeMetYet said:

Looks like quite a few don't want the vaccine, at least not right away.

 

At one Chicago hospital where the city's first COVID-19 vaccine was administered on Tuesday, 40% of the staff said in a survey earlier this month that they would not take it.

 

In Maine, 40% of staff and 30% of residents at the state's larger nursing homes won't take the jab, according to an "informal discussion" conducted by the Maine Health Care Association.

 

EMTs are also at the front of the line for the vaccine, yet approximately 30% of those who travel with New York firefighters are resistant to getting it, according to Annthony Almojera, a lieutenant paramedic who's vice president of FDNY's EMS Officers Union Local 3631.

 

Similar situation here in the UK and we have one of the best uptakes of the influenza vaccine in the world around 70%

But around 20% have said they will not take the covid vaccine and around 20% will wait before they have it. 

It was asked on a tv program in the UK should taking the covid vaccine be a requirement for frontline staff to do their job and the answer was could services run with 40% less frontline staff.

 

I know quite a few frontline staff who want the vaccine but are wanting to wait for the other jabs to be available, they do not want the mRNA vaccine. 

 

 

[zdcatc12]

2 hours ago, HaveWeMetYet said:

Looks like quite a few don't want the vaccine, at least not right away.

 

At one Chicago hospital where the city's first COVID-19 vaccine was administered on Tuesday, 40% of the staff said in a survey earlier this month that they would not take it.

 

Yes, I also saw that at Grady Hospital in Atlanta 1/3 of the staff want it, 1/3 are unsure and 1/3 do not want it.

[ziggyuk]

9 hours ago, nomad098 said:

 

Similar situation here in the UK and we have one of the best uptakes of the influenza vaccine in the world around 70%

But around 20% have said they will not take the covid vaccine and around 20% will wait before they have it. 

It was asked on a tv program in the UK should taking the covid vaccine be a requirement for frontline staff to do their job and the answer was could services run with 40% less frontline staff.

 

I know quite a few frontline staff who want the vaccine but are wanting to wait for the other jabs to be available, they do not want the mRNA vaccine. 

 

 

 

That's fine by me, Darwinism at it's finest.

Just a shame to waste a bed & ventilator on them when they made a choice.

[DCGuy64]

13 hours ago, HaveWeMetYet said:

Looks like quite a few don't want the vaccine, at least not right away.

 

At one Chicago hospital where the city's first COVID-19 vaccine was administered on Tuesday, 40% of the staff said in a survey earlier this month that they would not take it.

 

In Maine, 40% of staff and 30% of residents at the state's larger nursing homes won't take the jab, according to an "informal discussion" conducted by the Maine Health Care Association.

 

EMTs are also at the front of the line for the vaccine, yet approximately 30% of those who travel with New York firefighters are resistant to getting it, according to Annthony Almojera, a lieutenant paramedic who's vice president of FDNY's EMS Officers Union Local 3631.

Hmm, I wonder just how accurate or, more importantly, reliable, this information is. For example, raw numbers don't tell you WHY those who said they wouldn't take it, answered that way. I would hazard a guess that at least some of them want to see how people react to the vaccine before deciding. Now, if a year from today, you're still getting 30-40% of healthcare workers refusing to receive the vaccine, that'd be a different story. But frankly, this type of information is meaningless without understanding what motivated the naysayers.

[DCGuy64]

14 hours ago, nomad098 said:

 

It has nothing to do with the vaccine

 

The contract and terms and conditions are different depending on which market you book in.

 

If I book in the US and live in the UK, US law applies to my booking

If I book in the UK and live in the EU, UK law applies to my booking

If I book in the EU and live in the US, EU law applies to my booking

If I book in the EU and live in the UK, EU law applies to my booking

 

The laws covering contract law is different for different markets. If makes no difference where you sail from it's in which market you book that counts.

 

In the UK & EU if NCL change the terms and conditions of a booking for any reason they must either get my agreement or if I choose not to sail give a full cash refund. No arguments needed it's the law.

 

On a NCL cruise I was moved from an morning excursion to an afternoon one, this was not suitable I went to the excursions desk and asked why, they told me because they had overbooked the morning tour, I explained this was a breach of UK law and I had booked in the UK, the lady politely told me it was an American cruise line and American rules applied, I politely asked to see the manager and told her the same thing, she asked me to leave it with her. Later that day I received a phone call to tell me I was booked on the morning excursion and that a bottle of wine and chocolate covered strawberries would be sent to my stateroom and they were. The next day I saw the excursion manager who apologised profusely and explained she had spoken to the Miami office who made her aware that overbooking is not an excuse under UK law to change a booking, to do so would mean the possibility of criminal action and or a fine under UK law. NCL's terms and conditions said they could but because I booked in the UK the law said they couldn't. If I had booked in the US I would have to accept being bumped to the later tour. 

 

I had a KLM flight from Canada to the UK moved from a Saturday to a Sunday KLM's terms and conditions said they could do this but because I booked in the UK the law states that they need my agreement or I can have a full cash refund. I took the refund.

 

A contract will not stand if it does not meet the legal requirements of a countries laws in where the contract was agreed

 

To make having the covid-19 vaccine a requirement to cruise is a company policy not a legal requirement of a government. If it was a countries legal requirement to enter then NCL and all the other cruise lines would have no issues because the contract states you must have the correct vaccinations to meet a countries laws.

I think you're comparing apples to oranges here. And I'm not saying I think you're wrong, but I think you may be failing to see the difference between consumer protection laws and health regulations.

The scenarios you outlined above regarding excursions and flights are largely convenience issues, whereas COVID-19 is a deadly, global pandemic affecting the entire world. If NCL adds a vaccine requirement, that (to me, at least) isn't in the same category as, say, a cruise line substituting a different island on its itinerary, failing to give you OBC, free drinks, etc (in other words, things that are nice to have but aren't in the same class as a potentially lifesaving vaccine). I would be frankly very shocked if someone prevailed in court because he demanded a cash refund after refusing to sail due to a belated vaccine requirement. If the UK doesn't allow tour operators to make reasonable adjustments based on health and safety, I'd be quite surprised. But I will note this: to the extent that UK bookings allow for refunds in cases like you mention, that represents a cost to the cruise line, because it's not able to offer only FCC and must give a cash refund. That cost to the cruise line is probably why UK bookings don't allow refundable deposits. If the cruise line stands to lose, then so do its passengers. Can't have the good without the bad.

Edited December 18, 2020 by DCGuy64
corrected healthy to health

[littlelulu01]

13 hours ago, HaveWeMetYet said:

Looks like quite a few don't want the vaccine, at least not right away.

 

At one Chicago hospital where the city's first COVID-19 vaccine was administered on Tuesday, 40% of the staff said in a survey earlier this month that they would not take it.

 

In Maine, 40% of staff and 30% of residents at the state's larger nursing homes won't take the jab, according to an "informal discussion" conducted by the Maine Health Care Association.

 

EMTs are also at the front of the line for the vaccine, yet approximately 30% of those who travel with New York firefighters are resistant to getting it, according to Annthony Almojera, a lieutenant paramedic who's vice president of FDNY's EMS Officers Union Local 3631.

What people say and then do are often different.  My initial just asking staff if they wanted the vaccine was less than 50% to receive the vaccine in group 1.   After holding some non judgmental open meetings, we now have 68% wanting the vaccine.  Some are still holding out - A few are firmly planted in elaborate conspiracy theory but some are not getting because they’re pregnant or have just recovered from covid. We still have a few days before vaccination clinic and I suspect we’ll be getting a few more to sign up. My hope is for greater than 80% and I don’t think I’m in left field with that target. When I tell someone that is young and healthy they can definitely refuse the vaccine but if they do it might be the end of next year before they have a chance to be vaccinated, they typically think about it and change their mind. We all want to get back to normal life and most of us deep down don’t want to attend the super spreader wedding, cruise vacation .... get COVID and be responsible for someone’s death. Sure there’s a very vocal group of conspiracy theorists but I think most of us tend to believe that these funeral homes, hospitals and doctors are not lying. 

[graphicguy]

@nomad098

 

I think you may want to look at your NCL contract terms you agreed to when you booked/paid your fares.  I can absolutely guarantee you would not get a refund of your fare because you may or may not have been able to keep an excursion time/date.  Further, I can guarantee you won’t be able to get a refund because you had to change your dining reservations.

 

Taking NCL to court because they required (for example) a vaccine, which would be for the good of all the other passengers, even though it wasn’t required when you booked, would be an interesting exercise I think.

 

If you want to cruise, at least in the relatively near future, you’re going to need proof you had the vaccine.  If you refuse, and decide to ask for a refund (even though the contract states you agree by paying the fare, you agree to the terms), let us know how and if that works.  I’d like to know how they handle someone agreeing to a contract that states requirements may change, and you state you don’t care about that contract.

 

Seriously, I’d like to know.

 

The terms I agreed to when I booked in the EU for a EU cruise weren’t dissimilar to the ones I’ve seen booking in the U.S. for a Caribbean cruise.  I don’t know that they required a different cruise contract for me, as they didn’t know I was a U.S. citizen when I booked the cruise.