Norwegian is looking into Covid-19 vaccine requirement

[graphicguy]

The cruise lines have by now rethought their business plans for the next 12-18 months to accommodate fewer passengers cruising.  I believe the industry just wants to get the word out that their ships are "safe" (COVID killing HVAC systems, thorough ship disinfecting, processes and procedures like vaccine requirements and "no touch" temp taking upon entering the ship upon embarkation and shore excursions, buffet restrictions, etc).

 

They may be sailing with fewer passengers, but they'll be generating revenue (which they aren't doing now), even with fewer passengers.  Fewer passengers means less food costs, labor costs, fuel costs, etc.  So, I'm certain there are reams of paper with spread sheets on them showing revised revenue streams with smaller passenger manifests.

 

And yes, some people will not be allowed to book a cruise.  Is it fair?  I dunno.  But, safety is going to gain an even more prominent role in cruising.  So, some will be excluded temporarily.

 

You can bet those who have FCCs will be the first who will try to cruise.  They don't want to lose their money and get nothing in return.  Some will be allowed, some won't (at least temporarily).  But, those first "out of the gate" passengers will be the ones who will offer their assessments that will instill confidence (or derision) that will fuel new cruise bookings.

 

It behooves the cruise companies to be safe, and to provide a good experience if they want to rebuild their business.

[prov2727]

On 12/10/2020 at 7:14 AM, hallux said:

They are exploring the legality of requiring a vaccine to board one of their ships?  IMO - it's a similar argument to a store requiring a mask for entry, it's a privately-owned space, they can set any rules they want.  There shouldn't be any legal question regarding requiring a vaccine to board, but IANAL...

But a mask can be removed once Corona is over. This is a new type of vaccine. This is not the vaccines we have used in the past where you are given a dose of the killed virus. This is a mRNA vaccine that is clinically unproven*. So it is just not the same thing as requiring people to wear masks.

 

* https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/2770485

[CruiseMH]

22 hours ago, graphicguy said:

 

 

I’m thinking it doesn’t matter what country you’re from.  But, to board the ship, you’ll have to bring a statement from a Dr or recognized health agency, with a medical seal, showing the person who has been inoculated, the date of inoculation and the organization who did the inoculation as well as their certifications showing they’re an official health agency who is authorized to provide inoculations for COVID.  Again, this will be country independent.

 

If you can’t provide the above, regardless of the reason,  you can’t cruise. 

The theory looks fine and i generally totally agree with you.

But based on the above there would be at least hundreds if not thousands of different looking statements and certifications. Nobody of the shipping lines staff is able to check if these documents are true or fake. So they have to either rely on the honesty of their guests. Even if the create their own draft which you have to get signed and stamped by the one who has vaccinated you they still have the problem that they cannot check the stamp,signature and organization on this document.

So there is quite a risk of people being on board without being vaccinated.

 

[Capitan Obvious]

2 hours ago, halos said:

Are deaths unrelated to COVID-19 being marked as COVID-19? (abc15.com)

 

Not the point. The issue is that there is no differention betweens deaths actually caused by COVID vs deaths caused by "X" in people who ALSO have COVID. IOW, it is being taken as COVID is the cause, not even considering the other condition(s) which may actually be at fault.

[graphicguy]

1 hour ago, CruiseMH said:

The theory looks fine and i generally totally agree with you.

But based on the above there would be at least hundreds if not thousands of different looking statements and certifications. Nobody of the shipping lines staff is able to check if these documents are true or fake. So they have to either rely on the honesty of their guests. Even if the create their own draft which you have to get signed and stamped by the one who has vaccinated you they still have the problem that they cannot check the stamp,signature and organization on this document.

So there is quite a risk of people being on board without being vaccinated.

 

I believe the form will be standardized and come from NCL.  Whomever administered the vaccine would complete the form, with their credentials, and date of inoculation (and whatever brand/type of vaccine was administered), the patient it was administered to, etc.  They they sign it and add their official medical stamp/seal of approval.

 

That way, all forms would be the same with standardized and sent with your ticket(s) and check in information to bring with you upon embarkation.

Edited December 11, 2020 by graphicguy

[BermudaBound2014]

21 minutes ago, graphicguy said:

I believe the form will be standardized and come from NCL.  Whomever administered the vaccine would complete the form, with their credentials, and date of inoculation (and whatever brand/type of vaccine was administered), the patient it was administered to, etc.  They they sign it and add their official medical stamp/seal of approval.

 

I don't think this will work. Let's say Sally goes and gets a vaccine tomorrow because she is a health care worker, and then decides to book a cruise next April. The place where she was administered the vaccine in December may or may not still be available (they are looking at drive thru vaccination here in Mi).

 

Instead, I believe that everyone will use something along the lines of the "Safe Travel App" being rolled out for travel to Hawaii. Currently, the results of your negative covid test are uploaded to the app in pdf file and a qar code is shown at entry point as proof. This could be a uniform way to show vaccines since I believe we are going to need to show proof of a vaccination to enter anything with a crowd (concerts, sports games, etc...). You get the vaccination, upload the document in pdf file to your phone, and show the qar code to enter. A bummer for anyone without a smart phone, but this is the direction I foresee.  Of course, I could be wrong.

[graphicguy]

2 hours ago, BermudaBound2014 said:

 

I don't think this will work. Let's say Sally goes and gets a vaccine tomorrow because she is a health care worker, and then decides to book a cruise next April. The place where she was administered the vaccine in December may or may not still be available (they are looking at drive thru vaccination here in Mi).

 

Instead, I believe that everyone will use something along the lines of the "Safe Travel App" being rolled out for travel to Hawaii. Currently, the results of your negative covid test are uploaded to the app in pdf file and a qar code is shown at entry point as proof. This could be a uniform way to show vaccines since I believe we are going to need to show proof of a vaccination to enter anything with a crowd (concerts, sports games, etc...). You get the vaccination, upload the document in pdf file to your phone, and show the qar code to enter. A bummer for anyone without a smart phone, but this is the direction I foresee.  Of course, I could be wrong.

I'd have no issue with this.  But, I think interjecting a level of software into the process will be a non-starter.  Having to have a healthcare official, with their own level of software, log into an NCL specific site, that uses another level of different software, glitches will result, and some how are cleared to board, will not be allowed to.  That would be a recipe for disaster.

 

Using a singular form would alleviate that and provide proof of vaccination from a certified healthcare provider would probably be easiest for all involved.

[BermudaBound2014]

32 minutes ago, graphicguy said:

I'd have no issue with this.  But, I think interjecting a level of software into the process will be a non-starter.  Having to have a healthcare official, with their own level of software, log into an NCL specific site, that uses another level of different software, glitches will result, and some how are cleared to board, will not be allowed to.  That would be a recipe for disaster.

 

Using a singular form would alleviate that and provide proof of vaccination from a certified healthcare provider would probably be easiest for all involved.

 

I don't think I'm following you. I am suggesting a singular form (safe travels app) that is uploaded from a certified healthcare provider. Like the old fashioned vaccine passports people needed to carry only this one would be elecronic (in addition to a paper copy for those that don't have smart phones).

 

I 'think' (and correct me if I'm not reading correctly) that the only difference between what I'm suggesting and what you are suggesting is that my singular form (pdf file, QAR code, or hard copy) would be good for entry to ALL public venues. One form proves vaccination and every vendor uses the same software (Hawaii is piloting it right now). I 'think' you are recommending a form specific for NCL while I'm thinking there will be one form for all venues (cruise, airplane, concerts, etc...). Of course, I'm just guessing based on the requirements for me get to Hawaii in a few weeks. Time will tell how this all plays out.

[CruiseMH]

10 minutes ago, BermudaBound2014 said:

 

I am suggesting a singular form (safe travels app) that is uploaded from a certified healthcare provider. Like the old fashioned vaccine passports people needed to carry only this one would be elecronic (in addition to a paper copy for those that don't have smart phones).

 

 

The idea might work for public events in the US but for sure not for a cruise line in Europe.

NCL looks into starting cruising in Europe first in second quarter of 2021. And in this case your suggestion won`t be practicable at all.

 

[BermudaBound2014]

1 minute ago, CruiseMH said:

The idea might work for public events in the US but for sure not for a cruise line in Europe.

NCL looks into starting cruising in Europe first in second quarter of 2021. And in this case your suggestion won`t be practicable at all.

 

 

Actually, as frightening as this sounds, I recently read they are trying to do one app/form for the entire world (not just the USA). Again, time will tell how this all pans out. We are in unprecedented times.

[slavetoabunny]

21 hours ago, IrieBajan54 said:

.

Some of us prefer to be at sea breathing fresh sea air instead of auto fumes while looking at blacktop driving from city to city. Vaccine or bust!

There's the 52' Beneteau for that!

[nomad098]

10 minutes ago, BermudaBound2014 said:

 

Actually, as frightening as this sounds, I recently read they are trying to do one app/form for the entire world (not just the USA). Again, time will tell how this all pans out. We are in unprecedented times.

 

Certainly a lot of hurdles to jump to get one digital app to be accepted world wide, the UK could not even get it's own test and trace app to work well.

 

Issuing a ICVP on receipt of your second dose might be an answer if Governments can be persuaded to support businesses.

 

The WHO do not support digital covid passports whilst trailing their own one, they do support e-vaccination certificates but this has logistical issues outside of high income countries.

 

 

[Buford T Justiice]

Sounds like NCL could roll out a new fee style app* to capture these health requirements

 

* with a fee and gratuity added for your convenience.

 

Something has to pay for the ships and reduced capacities.

[skywonder]

11 hours ago, graphicguy said:

The cruise lines have by now rethought their business plans for the next 12-18 months to accommodate fewer passengers cruising.  I believe the industry just wants to get the word out that their ships are "safe" (COVID killing HVAC systems, thorough ship disinfecting, processes and procedures like vaccine requirements and "no touch" temp taking upon entering the ship upon embarkation and shore excursions, buffet restrictions, etc).

 

They may be sailing with fewer passengers, but they'll be generating revenue (which they aren't doing now), even with fewer passengers.  Fewer passengers means less food costs, labor costs, fuel costs, etc.  So, I'm certain there are reams of paper with spread sheets on them showing revised revenue streams with smaller passenger manifests.

 

And yes, some people will not be allowed to book a cruise.  Is it fair?  I dunno.  But, safety is going to gain an even more prominent role in cruising.  So, some will be excluded temporarily.

 

You can bet those who have FCCs will be the first who will try to cruise.  They don't want to lose their money and get nothing in return.  Some will be allowed, some won't (at least temporarily).  But, those first "out of the gate" passengers will be the ones who will offer their assessments that will instill confidence (or derision) that will fuel new cruise bookings.

 

It behooves the cruise companies to be safe, and to provide a good experience if they want to rebuild their business.

I wonder about the people who have non-refundable FCC and do not want to get the vaccine. Will the cruise lines have to give them their money back, makes me wonder what the solution will be.

[hamrag]

5 hours ago, skywonder said:

I wonder about the people who have non-refundable FCC and do not want to get the vaccine. Will the cruise lines have to give them their money back, makes me wonder what the solution will be.

That is a very fair point, if the cruiselines introduce requirements that passengers are not willing to meet!

[Trimone]

The Mediterranean having a relapse :

 

07:57

Italy could overtake the UK's coronavirus death toll today

Another 761 COVID-19-related deaths were recorded in Italy in Friday, taking the total number of people to have died during the pandemic to 63,387.

That brings Italy close to the UK's coronavirus death toll of 63,606.

Italy was at the centre of the European outbreak in March and April and was one of the first countries on the continent to lock down and keep residents at home.

[sanger727]

On 12/10/2020 at 2:14 PM, nomad098 said:

 

So

no families with kids under 18

no medically unable to have a vaccine and that covers quite a few people

no pregnant women 

no breast feeding women 

no women planning on having kids in the near future

 

That's got to equal between 35% to 45% families alone equal 30% of the market

 

Add to that those that choose not to get vaccinated 15% to 20%

 

so a conservative 50% to 60% of the cruise lines customers unable to cruise.

 

where have you seen that those groups can’t be vaccinated? The only group I’ve seen a recommendation to not get the Covid vaccine is people with a serious history of allergic reactions. Pretty sure that all of the people you mentioned except the medically unable are recommended to get the flu vaccine. Not sure why it wouldn’t be recommended to get the Covid vaccine.

[bigrednole]

I am 100% for this requirement. IF, and that is a big IF, this virus is as bad as the government and media have portrayed it to be, mandatory vaccination is required. I am not talking just for cruising. I am talking about everything. Medical insurance, driver's license, voting, going to school, mortgage, loans, credit cards, everything. Remember, this virus is so devastating that it has shutdown the United States for 9 months now and looking to go even further. It is so bad that 40%+ of small businesses will be gone forever. Because this is the worst thing the world has seen, sarcasm for those Sheldon Coopers, eradicating it through vaccine is a requirement. It is as simple as that. Either we have been lied to and we can just reopen everything or this is as bad as they say and everyone must be vaccinated. There is no middle ground. 

 

I am all for this and booked a NCLH cruise already because of the news. At least I am certain cruises will be going in November.

[nomad098]

21 minutes ago, sanger727 said:

where have you seen that those groups can’t be vaccinated? The only group I’ve seen a recommendation to not get the Covid vaccine is people with a serious history of allergic reactions. Pretty sure that all of the people you mentioned except the medically unable are recommended to get the flu vaccine. Not sure why it wouldn’t be recommended to get the Covid vaccine.

 

I'm not sure what the FDA recommendations are but in the UK it is not recommended for

 

People under 18

Medically unable to have a vaccine or have a history of anaphylaxis 

Pregnant women 

Breast feeding women 

Women planning pregnancy within 2 months of the injection.

 

The UK equivalent of the FDA the MHRA have not recommended these groups for the jab because it has not been tested on them. 

 

Anyone immunosuppressed have not been ruled out, however no testing on this group has been done and medically the scientists are unsure how much protection the vaccine will have as you have to have a functional immune system to get the 95% coverage. 

 

As time goes on groups may be removed or added dependent on results from the initial roll out.

 

It was said by one senior public health official in the UK government that healthy under 50's may not be offered the vaccine dependent on results of the initial roll out. 

 

Drugs but not so much vaccines have been recalled after approval or limited to certain groups dependent on studies.

 

https://www.cdc.gov/vaccinesafety/concerns/recalls.html

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4740994/

https://creakyjoints.org/living-with-arthritis/coronavirus/covid-19-vaccines/covid-19-vaccine-immunocompromised/

 

Influenza jab in the UK is only offered to certain vulnerable groups.

Thalidomide is given as a medication for certain groups, cancer patients being one, but is not offered to women of a child bearing age.

 

The policies will be dependent on where you live in the world

 

[sanger727]

6 minutes ago, nomad098 said:

 

I'm not sure what the FDA recommendations are but in the UK it is not recommended for

 

People under 18

Medically unable to have a vaccine or have a history of anaphylaxis 

Pregnant women 

Breast feeding women 

Women planning pregnancy within 2 months of the injection.

 

The UK equivalent of the FDA the MHRA have not recommended these groups for the jab because it has not been tested on them. 

 

Anyone immunosuppressed have not been ruled out, however no testing on this group has been done and medically the scientists are unsure how much protection the vaccine will have as you have to have a functional immune system to get the 95% coverage. 

 

As time goes on groups may be removed or added dependent on results from the initial roll out.

 

It was said by one senior public health official in the UK government that healthy under 50's may not be offered the vaccine dependent on results of the initial roll out. 

 

Drugs but not so much vaccines have been recalled after approval or limited to certain groups dependent on studies.

 

https://www.cdc.gov/vaccinesafety/concerns/recalls.html

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4740994/

https://creakyjoints.org/living-with-arthritis/coronavirus/covid-19-vaccines/covid-19-vaccine-immunocompromised/

 

Influenza jab in the UK is only offered to certain vulnerable groups.

Thalidomide is given as a medication for certain groups, cancer patients being one, but is not offered to women of a child bearing age.

 

The policies will be dependent on where you live in the world

 

I just checked the fda and they are approving for anyone 16 and over. As far as children, they are doing studies with children now so I would expect those other groups not being able to get it is temporary. I very much suspect that in the US a Covid vaccine will become mandatory for public school children given how much Covid has disrupted the school year. So by the time the vaccine is widely enough available to require it for traveling (prob not till late 2021 or 2022) I don’t see this to still be a hurdle to getting it.

 

https://www.wsj.com/articles/covid-19-vaccine-makers-turn-toward-testing-children-11607688001

[hamrag]

1 hour ago, bigrednole said:

....IF, and that is a big IF, this virus is as bad as the government and media have portrayed it to be....

 

There are no words......🙄

[ace2542]

1 hour ago, hamrag said:

That is a very fair point, if the cruiselines introduce requirements that passengers are not willing to meet!

Then they lose their money don't they?.

[ace2542]

8 minutes ago, sanger727 said:

I just checked the fda and they are approving for anyone 16 and over. As far as children, they are doing studies with children now so I would expect those other groups not being able to get it is temporary. I very much suspect that in the US a Covid vaccine will become mandatory for public school children given how much Covid has disrupted the school year. So by the time the vaccine is widely enough available to require it for traveling (prob not till late 2021 or 2022) I don’t see this to still be a hurdle to getting it.

 

https://www.wsj.com/articles/covid-19-vaccine-makers-turn-toward-testing-children-11607688001

I have heard it said they by June all americans who want it will be in a place to receive it. And that statement was in the media before Trump tried his america first executive order.

[hamrag]

6 minutes ago, ace2542 said:

Then they lose their money don't they?.

It depends, the argument is the cruiseline has changed the original T&C's to add the requirement of a mandatory vaccine, so I still believe it's an interesting take on the cash v's FCC debate.

[ace2542]

1 minute ago, hamrag said:

It depends, the argument is the cruiseline has changed the original T&C's to add the requirement of a mandatory vaccine, so I still believe it's an interesting take on the cash v's FCC debate.

Would change in T&C AFTER deposit or final payment has been made stand up in court I wonder? Because you don't have to take FCC do you?