Norwegian is looking into Covid-19 vaccine requirement

[nomad098]

5 minutes ago, ace2542 said:

Would change in T&C AFTER deposit or final payment has been made stand up in court I wonder? Because you don't have to take FCC do you?

 

For the UK it's written into contract law and the package holiday regulations, T&C's cannot be changed after agreed without agreements from both parties, the real question is whether vaccinations are a legal governmental requirement as is the case now for some vaccinations or a business requirement of the cruise line.

[CruiseMH]

46 minutes ago, nomad098 said:

 

I'm not sure what the FDA recommendations are but in the UK it is not recommended for

 

People under 18

 

 

 

If no people under 18 should be vaccinated then they have to either close all schools for 5 months or the infections will never go down.

 

[CruiseMH]

3 minutes ago, nomad098 said:

 

 the real question is whether vaccinations are a legal governmental requirement as is the case now for some vaccinations or a business requirement of the cruise line.

I can`t imagine that many governments will introduce a legal requirement for covid vaccination. This would lead to heavy protests and defiant reactions in most countries. Especially in countries where there are elections in  the near future(e.g. germany in September 2021) no government will risk this move.

[nomad098]

6 minutes ago, CruiseMH said:

If no people under 18 should be vaccinated then they have to either close all schools for 5 months or the infections will never go down.

 

 

If the Pfizer and the government scientist are right then deaths from covid-19 should drop by over 99% in vaccinated people 

I would imagine less attention will be placed on infection rates and more on getting vaccination rates up especially if you can still carry and transmit the virus. 

[ace2542]

18 minutes ago, CruiseMH said:

If no people under 18 should be vaccinated then they have to either close all schools for 5 months or the infections will never go down.

 

No what should do but never will is isolate all the schoolkids for 2 weeks in locations like university campus hotels, butlins and center parcs in UK etc etc and then introduce it. Then they all get it and get immunity and the schools can return to normal working in about a month. That would also cut off one route of transmission from child to parent. But they won't do that.

[nomad098]

10 minutes ago, CruiseMH said:

I can`t imagine that many governments will introduce a legal requirement for covid vaccination. This would lead to heavy protests and defiant reactions in most countries. Especially in countries where there are elections in  the near future(e.g. germany in September 2021) no government will risk this move.

 

I agree, but the perception will be different around the world compared to most of Europe and even in places like Germany, France and the UK opinions will be divided.

 

 

 

[nomad098]

2 minutes ago, ace2542 said:

No what should do but never will is isolate all the schoolkids for 2 weeks in locations like university campus hotels, butlins and center parcs in UK etc etc and then introduce it. Then they all get it and get immunity and the schools can return to normal working in about a month. That would also cut off one route of transmission from child to parent. But they won't do that.

 

I also do not think a "lord of the flies" approach would be optimal or practical and to be honest it would give me nightmares when I think back to what I got up to as a youth.😁

[ace2542]

6 minutes ago, nomad098 said:

 

I also do not think a "lord of the flies" approach would be optimal or practical and to be honest it would give me nightmares when I think back to what I got up to as a youth.😁

I think they would have a grand old time. Especially if you paid them to do it.

[roger001]

2 hours ago, hamrag said:

 

There are no words......🙄

And left out of that post was doctors, nurses, hospitals, nursing homes, and the many other folks who have emphasized the seriousness of this virus.  What do they know!   

[sanger727]

2 hours ago, ace2542 said:

I have heard it said they by June all americans who want it will be in a place to receive it. And that statement was in the media before Trump tried his america first executive order.

that’s what they have said but I don’t see how. We are talking around 500-600 million doses since each person needs two. We purchased 100 million from Pfizer but they have already said that it’s going to be after the summer before we can get more. Think we also bought 100 million from moderna. Not sure if they can provide additional doses sooner or not. I don’t see astra zenica’s vaccine being approved anytime soon due to mistakes they made in the trial. 

[nomad098]

I posted this on a RCL thread but I thought it would add to the conversation here

 

Looking at the FDA recommendations it is different to the UK ones.

 

WHAT SHOULD YOU MENTION TO YOUR VACCINATION PROVIDER BEFORE YOU GET THE PFIZER-BIONTECH COVID-19 VACCINE?

Tell the vaccination provider about all of your medical conditions, including if you:

• have any allergies

• have a fever

• have a bleeding disorder or are on a blood thinner

• are immunocompromised or are on a medicine that affects your immune system

• are pregnant or plan to become pregnant

• are breastfeeding

• have received another COVID-19 vaccine

 

WHO SHOULD GET THE PFIZER-BIONTECH COVID-19 VACCINE?

FDA has authorized the emergency use of the Pfizer-BioNTech COVID-19 Vaccine in individuals 16 years of age and older.

 

WHO SHOULD NOT GET THE PFIZER-BIONTECH COVID-19 VACCINE?

You should not get the Pfizer-BioNTech COVID-19 Vaccine if you:

• had a severe allergic reaction after a previous dose of this vaccine

• had a severe allergic reaction to any ingredient of this vaccine

 

It looks like North America are going to be the phase IV (marketing trial) for most of the rest of the world this is not having a go at North America but pointing out that they will be testing the vaccine on previously untested groups. And without any sarcasm and with genuine feeling good luck to them.

 

If more people can be tested safe to have the vaccine than it would make having a vaccine requirement more appealing in the short term but negate the need in the longer term.

https://www.fda.gov/media/144414/download

 

[ace2542]

35 minutes ago, sanger727 said:

astra zenica’s vaccine being approved anytime soon due to mistakes they made in the trial

That will never be approved under any circumstances ever because it is garbage compared to the other 2 and 30% less effective is a big number and they know that vaccines can be made to 95% effective now.  They will approve the Russian one which turns you into a zombie! 😲😮😮 only joking! 🤣 before the Astra Zeneca gets approved. Besides they have doubled moderna order to 200 million in total.

[zdcatc12]

11 hours ago, sanger727 said:

that’s what they have said but I don’t see how. We are talking around 500-600 million doses since each person needs two. We purchased 100 million from Pfizer but they have already said that it’s going to be after the summer before we can get more. Think we also bought 100 million from moderna. Not sure if they can provide additional doses sooner or not. I don’t see astra zenica’s vaccine being approved anytime soon due to mistakes they made in the trial. 

Though I read that in a poll between 40 and 50 percent of Americans either are unsure if they will or they won't get the vaccine. This speeds it up for everyone else.

[graphicguy]

17 hours ago, hamrag said:

It depends, the argument is the cruiseline has changed the original T&C's to add the requirement of a mandatory vaccine, so I still believe it's an interesting take on the cash v's FCC debate.

If someone does not want to get the vaccine, I believe it would fall under the terms (paraphrasing) that if any passenger engages in any activity that puts themselves or other passengers at risk, they will not be allowed to sail.  In short, they would forfeit whatever they paid because they would be putting other passengers at risk by not getting the vaccine.

 

I view this similarly to the polio vaccine.  Once it was required, the disease had disappeared shortly thereafter.  It would be for the good of all.

[sanger727]

10 hours ago, zdcatc12 said:

Though I read that in a poll between 40 and 50 percent of Americans either are unsure if they will or they won't get the vaccine. This speeds it up for everyone else.

true. I still don’t think 200 million doses will be enough though. Apparently the vaccine is only approved for ages 16 and over now. There are roughly 255 million adults in the US. If 50% are undecided; let’s say half of those end up taking it. That is still close to 200 million people which would need 400 million doses. So to get to the point where everyone who wants one can get one, we will still need to secure a substantial number of extra doses

[david_sobe]

I think cruising will resume in 2021.  However it wont be until probably mid 2022 that anything remotely normal will return to cruising.  People that are vaccinated can still spread the virus so everyone will still be wearing masks and social distancing until everyone is vaccinated.
 

[nomad098]

8 hours ago, graphicguy said:

If someone does not want to get the vaccine, I believe it would fall under the terms (paraphrasing) that if any passenger engages in any activity that puts themselves or other passengers at risk, they will not be allowed to sail.  In short, they would forfeit whatever they paid because they would be putting other passengers at risk by not getting the vaccine.

 

I view this similarly to the polio vaccine.  Once it was required, the disease had disappeared shortly thereafter.  It would be for the good of all.

 

You can believe whatever you want it does not make it a reality, proving the risk would be very difficult are you more at risk from someone who has had covid-19 or a vaccinated person, are older people more at risk than younger people even if they have all been vaccinated so many questions to be answered and so little time to answer them before there are no cruise lines.

 

1) No vaccine no cruise you lose a large percentage of your customers.

2) No vaccine no cruise, masks mandatory, social distancing, cruise tours only, a larger percentage of customers.

3) Unvaccinated cruise you lose a percentage of your customers as some who are vaccinated will go some will not.

4) Unvaccinated cruise, masks mandatory, social distancing, cruise tours only, you lose a larger percentage of customers.

 

And probably more options I have not posted

 

What cruise companies need to work out is which of the multitude of options gives them the largest percentage of the market for the largest financial reward versus risk factors.

 

Can cruise companies risk waiting financially until enough people are vaccinated to start up.

 

May be a cruise company can risk starting up when those at risk have a vaccination but those that are not at risk have not been vaccinated.

 

If Governments and cruise lines put to many impediments to cruising vacations people will look at other options it's human nature.

 

A lot of difficult decisions ahead for cruise companies.

 

 

 

 

 

[graphicguy]

I don't have a copy of NCL's Ts and Cs, but the quote below is from Royal Caribbean.  I'm sure NCL's is similar.  In brief, any passenger is subject to the rules of the cruise lines as well as those that govern each geographic jurisdiction.  Moreover, the rules can change and passengers have to comply in order to cruise.

 

There will be some who are excluded from cruising, either because of their inability or lack of want to comply.  I don't doubt the cruise lines have taken that into account.  They won't sail full...probably far from it, as a result.  Those who won't comply probably will have a time frame put on their tercet contract.  If at the end of that time frame, they continue with non-compliance, they'll probably lose their deposit, FCC, or their cruise fare.

 

If you've booked and given the cruise line(s) money, you are subject to their contract, whether you know it or not.  If you don't comply, you lose your money.

 

Most don't read the contract.  But, it's all spelled out there.

 

 

"Carrier’s COVID-19 Policies and Procedures are subject to guidance and directives of established health authorities in the U.S. and other destinations where the Vessel visits, including the CDC and other international, national and local health agencies when the Vessel is within those agencies’ jurisdiction. Passenger acknowledges that these directives may change from time to time and that Carrier’s COVID-19 Policies and Procedures may therefore change. Passenger expressly agrees to comply not only with the COVID-19 Policies and Procedures as they are described herein, but also as they are set forth on Carrier’s website"

Edited December 13, 2020 by graphicguy

[graphicguy]

On 12/11/2020 at 4:17 PM, BermudaBound2014 said:

 

I don't think I'm following you. I am suggesting a singular form (safe travels app) that is uploaded from a certified healthcare provider. Like the old fashioned vaccine passports people needed to carry only this one would be elecronic (in addition to a paper copy for those that don't have smart phones).

 

I 'think' (and correct me if I'm not reading correctly) that the only difference between what I'm suggesting and what you are suggesting is that my singular form (pdf file, QAR code, or hard copy) would be good for entry to ALL public venues. One form proves vaccination and every vendor uses the same software (Hawaii is piloting it right now). I 'think' you are recommending a form specific for NCL while I'm thinking there will be one form for all venues (cruise, airplane, concerts, etc...). Of course, I'm just guessing based on the requirements for me get to Hawaii in a few weeks. Time will tell how this all plays out.

I think we're violently agreeing.

 

The downside with an app, I see the masses checking in at the gate, and someone in the group checking in either a) has a dead phone and can't pull anything up, b) somehow can't find/get the app to show to the gate agent c) says they don't need the app because they are somehow exempt.

 

That will cause all sorts of problems at check in.  That doesn't even address the possibility that any app has the ability to crash any operating system (be it iOS, Mac OS, Windows, Android, etc).  The app would have to function flawlessly with multiple operating systems.  Plus, it has to work with multiple versions of multiple operating systems. Plus, it would have to work flawlessly with multiple cell phone companies' cell systems.  Plus, they would have to work flawlessly with the venue's WiFi (think of 2,000 people all trying to use a WiFi signal in a compressed area and how slow that would be).  Plus, if someone happened to drop their cell phone and broke it, no app available.

 

Aside from that....smooth sailing.

[Charles4515]

14 hours ago, zdcatc12 said:

Though I read that in a poll between 40 and 50 percent of Americans either are unsure if they will or they won't get the vaccine. This speeds it up for everyone else.

Being hesitant to take the vaccine should not be equated to those people not getting vaccinated. It is valid to be hesitant. I am not hesitant because I am well read on the subject..There will need to be a public education campaign to convince people to get vaccinated. When vaccinations start I expect the main problem will be availability. As the vaccines become available the hesitancy will go down. 

[Charles4515]

1 hour ago, nomad098 said:

 

 

 

1) No vaccine no cruise you lose a large percentage of your customers.

2) No vaccine no cruise, masks mandatory, social distancing, cruise tours only, a larger percentage of customers.

3) Unvaccinated cruise you lose a percentage of your customers as some who are vaccinated will go some will not.

4) Unvaccinated cruise, masks mandatory, social distancing, cruise tours only, you lose a larger percentage of customers.

 

They have no customers now. I don't think it will be a difficult decision for cruise lines to require vaccination to restart cruises.

[BermudaBound2014]

41 minutes ago, graphicguy said:

I think we're violently agreeing.

 

The downside with an app, I see the masses checking in at the gate, and someone in the group checking in either a) has a dead phone and can't pull anything up, b) somehow can't find/get the app to show to the gate agent c) says they don't need the app because they are somehow exempt.

 

That will cause all sorts of problems at check in.  That doesn't even address the possibility that any app has the ability to crash any operating system (be it iOS, Mac OS, Windows, Android, etc).  The app would have to function flawlessly with multiple operating systems.  Plus, it has to work with multiple versions of multiple operating systems. Plus, it would have to work flawlessly with multiple cell phone companies' cell systems.  Plus, they would have to work flawlessly with the venue's WiFi (think of 2,000 people all trying to use a WiFi signal in a compressed area and how slow that would be).  Plus, if someone happened to drop their cell phone and broke it, no app available.

 

Aside from that....smooth sailing.

 

No violence here :). I still see this all happening on an app.  I don't deny that the problems you mention exist, but paperless is the future. I haven't printed plane tickets in years. Time will tell of course. 

 

Smooth sailing to you.

[hallux]

1 hour ago, graphicguy said:

Plus, it would have to work flawlessly with multiple cell phone companies' cell systems.  Plus, they would have to work flawlessly with the venue's WiFi (think of 2,000 people all trying to use a WiFi signal in a compressed area and how slow that would be)

No, it doesn't.  The app should verify your status once (your vaccination status won't change once you're vaccinated, unless it's found that you need to vaccinate annually but that can be built in to the apps) and then be able to display said status without an internet connection.  The app should NOT have to communicate back to a server to display this.  If there needs to be a verification of the info it would be the cruise line having access to some database to verify.  If, for example, CLEAR is used then the CLEAR system in use by the cruise line has an internet connection for verifying information and your phone simply has your unique identifier on it.

 

Consider it like Apple Pay or Google Pay - those apps don't need an internet connection to work (well, I don't think Google Pay does anyway, I have no experience with Apple Pay) for making a payment in store.  You need an internet connection initially, to verify your card info through the credit card company and then generate a tokenized "card" in the payment app on the phone.  The tokenized credit card info is stored securely on the phone to be transmitted through NFC (in the case of Google Pay anyway) to the CC terminal but the phone doesn't need to communicate back to the credit card company to verify the card before the transaction is approved, the STORE does that.  In fact - I wouldn't put it past Apple and Google to be working on a way to utilize that same system for vaccine verification (remember, the tokenized data is stored on the phone after verification, not on Google's or Apple's servers).

[Charles4515]

32 minutes ago, hallux said:

No, it doesn't.  The app should verify your status once (your vaccination status won't change once you're vaccinated, unless it's found that you need to vaccinate annually but that can be built in to the apps) and then be able to display said status without an internet connection.  The app should NOT have to communicate back to a server to display this.  If there needs to be a verification of the info it would be the cruise line having access to some database to verify.  If, for example, CLEAR is used then the CLEAR system in use by the cruise line has an internet connection for verifying information and your phone simply has your unique identifier on it.

 

Consider it like Apple Pay or Google Pay - those apps don't need an internet connection to work (well, I don't think Google Pay does anyway, I have no experience with Apple Pay) for making a payment in store.  You need an internet connection initially, to verify your card info through the credit card company and then generate a tokenized "card" in the payment app on the phone.  The tokenized credit card info is stored securely on the phone to be transmitted through NFC (in the case of Google Pay anyway) to the CC terminal but the phone doesn't need to communicate back to the credit card company to verify the card before the transaction is approved, the STORE does that.  In fact - I wouldn't put it past Apple and Google to be working on a way to utilize that same system for vaccine verification (remember, the tokenized data is stored on the phone after verification, not on Google's or Apple's servers).

 

Apple Pay does not require an internet connection. I also have an Express Transit card on my iPhone that opens the Metro gates without an internet connection. I believe though that the apps on iPhones and Android phones will probably have a QR code that is scanned which also would not require an internet connection. 

Edited December 13, 2020 by Charles4515

[Charles4515]

 

 

There are already several apps that verify covid tests. They certainly can be modified to verify vaccination. Below is a link to CommonPass.

 

https://thecommonsproject.org/commonpass

Edited December 13, 2020 by Charles4515