Compulsory offshore excursions due to Covid with P&O

[Bloodaxe]

29 minutes ago, Eddie99 said:

All the arguments here just make me (even) more sceptical that the summer holiday season can go ahead in anything like the manner we are accustomed 

 

I hope I’m wrong; I fear I’m right.  Sorry

 

Fully agree, I believe it will be a very long time before holidays are back to normal particularly cruising. 

[terrierjohn]

1 hour ago, Dermotsgirl said:

The difference is that cruise ship passengers are effectively living in a closed community, and the virus likes a close community as it can spread with ease. Therefore, if everyone goes ashore in Rome and does their own thing, there is a greater chance of people picking up the virus. Then they get back on board, they have the rest of the cruise to spread the virus around the closed community. The risk is even greater now that there are different variants that are spreading, and some of the variants are even more infectious 

 

 

Whilst not disagreeing with your theory, there has to come a time when we learn to live with the virus. When the vaccines have pushed the infection rates low enough for effective track and trace to be able to isolate those who might have contracted the virus, for testing or quarantine.

For the UK population this might be by end of May or early June.

[zap99]

2 hours ago, joeecco said:

They are releasing new, and lower cost excursions to suit the pandemic restrictions and lower budgets 8 weeks before each cruise if yours still has this restriction in place. 
P&O have made the right decision with this, they have to protect the safety of everyone onboard so if they aren’t going to add protocols whilst you’re on board and then let you do as you wish when you go ashore. That would just be silly in this climate. As soon as they can drop this they will, they know people aren’t happy but it’s the only option. 
 

Me personally, I am more than happy with it. 

Although we are quite happy to go on a P&O excursion. That requirement may change fairly soon as we will all be Jabbed.

[Dermotsgirl]

7 minutes ago, terrierjohn said:

Whilst not disagreeing with your theory, there has to come a time when we learn to live with the virus. When the vaccines have pushed the infection rates low enough for effective track and trace to be able to isolate those who might have contracted the virus, for testing or quarantine.

For the UK population this might be by end of May or early June.

The question is, what does 'living with the virus' entail?

 

The situation is changing all the time, as the virus mutates.  We've got the Brazilian variant, the South African variant, the Kent variant, the mutated Kent variant, and now the suggestion that there might be a Bristol variant and a Liverpool variant. (per Matt Hancock in the Commons today.)

 

The more hosts that the virus infects, means the more likely that it is to mutate. The current vaccine is already said to be less effective on the SA variant and the mutated Kent strain - we will be in a world of trouble if the virus mutates into an even more vaccine resistant variant.

 

Unfortunately, I increasingly think there needs to be even more effort in suppressing the virus, otherwise it'll keep mutating

[AndyMichelle]

It is what it is while the pandemic continues, we either accept it or wait until life is back to normal. 

Some will take whatever is on offer, others won't. 

I suspect we all knew cruising would be the last to resume to normal as it was the first to be highlighted. 

Andy 

[tring]

2 hours ago, angeliquer said:

Thank you Wowzz.

I understand the need to change some practices and that cruising will be different than before. However this is a really major change in my eyes and I am just a bit shocked to be honest. I booked the cruise 15 months ago before the the pandemic started, and I just stumbled upon this new T&C. I never received any email or letter advising about this, and this is going to be a deal breaker for me. I have until August to pay the remainder of my cruise so I will wait till then and hope they reconsider this new rule. Otherwise I will be cancelling I am afraid, which is a shame as the whole family had been looking forward to it 😞 

 

The criteria for cruises will be very much the same for all lines as they will be sailing (or not) according to criteria set out by their home port country, after lots of discussions between the Government, CLIA and the cruise lines themselves.  It is well publicised that when cruises do start there will be scenic cruising, then progressing to a few UK ports and beyond that a resumption to more port visits, some in other countries, with "bubbled tours" only.  Given the relatively slow roll out of vaccines in other European countries, visiting those could be some months away, even with the  "bubbled tours".  Even when ships do visit, they will be restricted again by whatever criteria that the country concerned puts in place regards specific ports that you can/cannot visit or conditions under which passengers can/cannot leave the ship.  In the early stages I personally see a lot of potential last minute changes as well, considering how the travel corridors have worked so far.  Hopefully such conditions will be relaxed as the year goes on, though as we all know the UK will quite likely still have some restrictions in place even at the end of the year, according to what has been said in the briefings (masks at times, social distancing).

 

I have close connections with someone who is well up on consumer law and he feels that, whist the changes you refer to would be a major change under a normal situation, they are more of a grey area in this case since the changes will be the requirement of both our Government and the port countries visited, so not under the control of P&O.  Hence you may not be able to cancel and get a refund, and indeed that is the line the cruise companies are taking at present.  However by the time you get to your balance payment date, I suspect there will have been a lot of publicity about this, so will become clearer exactly how you would stand if you wanted a refund, but a transfer should be an easy matter as the cruise lines are already saying they will do transfers. 

 

I can quite see why, as a family, you would not want to have to be restricted to tours only, but these criteria are being planned to protect yourselves, others on the ship and also the local communities.  TBH I can quite see the importance of them compared to ordinary fly holidays, considering how a cruise ship is a closed community and that people move from port to port, potentially spreading germs far and wide, rather than just taking them to one other place.  In hotels people are much more spread out with lots of access to outdoor areas.  The situation we have today with the new variants show that very clearly.

 

Many people do not like the new conditions, me included, but sadly they are going to happen in the short term, just like all the lock down situations we are under at present.  Fingers crossed all will get better sometime in the not too distant future.  

 

   

[grapau27]

1 hour ago, joeecco said:

And that is the hotel’s responsibility to keep everyone safe. And so it’s P&Os responsibility to keep us safe. It really isn’t the same. 

But the hotel won't insist everyone stops in the hotel unless they arrange a bubbled excursion for their guests.

As others have said there will be mingling in the resort's and attractions but only ship guests will be constrained.

After 54 cruises and having been on many excursions I know  it is impossible to keep everyone in a bubble because people wander off,some are walking restricted etc.

[joeecco]

12 minutes ago, grapau27 said:

But the hotel won't insist everyone stops in the hotel unless they arrange a bubbled excursion for their guests.

As others have said there will be mingling in the resort's and attractions but only ship guests will be constrained.

After 54 cruises and having been on many excursions I know  it is impossible to keep everyone in a bubble because people wander off,some are walking restricted etc.

Let’s be honest here. 
the real reason cruise lines are having to enforce excursions only is this;

Who does the media target most, hotels or cruise lines?

 

Cruise lines have far more to ‘prove’ compared to a hotel on land. 

[terrierjohn]

11 minutes ago, Dermotsgirl said:

The question is, what does 'living with the virus' entail?

 

The situation is changing all the time, as the virus mutates.  We've got the Brazilian variant, the South African variant, the Kent variant, the mutated Kent variant, and now the suggestion that there might be a Bristol variant and a Liverpool variant. (per Matt Hancock in the Commons today.)

 

The more hosts that the virus infects, means the more likely that it is to mutate. The current vaccine is already said to be less effective on the SA variant and the mutated Kent strain - we will be in a world of trouble if the virus mutates into an even more vaccine resistant variant.

 

Unfortunately, I increasingly think there needs to be even more effort in suppressing the virus, otherwise it'll keep mutating

I was looking at the effectiveness of the flu vaccine on the NHS website this morning, and from memory it impressively reduces infections, hospitalization, ICU stays etc.  So we have to hope that vaccination will have an even greater impact on covid, since we are vaccinating most of the population and not just the over 60s, which has generally been the case with flu.

As regards mutations this has regularly been handled with modifying the flu vaccine, so presumably covid vaccines can similarly be tweaked.

[joeecco]

21 minutes ago, Dermotsgirl said:

The question is, what does 'living with the virus' entail?

 

The situation is changing all the time, as the virus mutates.  We've got the Brazilian variant, the South African variant, the Kent variant, the mutated Kent variant, and now the suggestion that there might be a Bristol variant and a Liverpool variant. (per Matt Hancock in the Commons today.)

 

The more hosts that the virus infects, means the more likely that it is to mutate. The current vaccine is already said to be less effective on the SA variant and the mutated Kent strain - we will be in a world of trouble if the virus mutates into an even more vaccine resistant variant.

 

Unfortunately, I increasingly think there needs to be even more effort in suppressing the virus, otherwise it'll keep mutating

So at what point do we get back to some sort of normal? We can’t spend the rest of our lives  running off if someone gets a little close. 

[Dermotsgirl]

2 minutes ago, joeecco said:

So at what point do we get back to some sort of normal? We can’t spend the rest of our lives  running off if someone gets a little close. 

I don't think anybody can predict that. 

[terrierjohn]

2 minutes ago, joeecco said:

Let’s be honest here. 
the real reason cruise lines are having to enforce excursions only is this;

Who does the media target most, hotels or cruise lines?

 

Cruise lines have far more to ‘prove’ compared to a hotel on land. 

I know why you say that, but I would like to see the comparison of CDC, or whatever is the UK equivalent, reports of hotel vs cruise line health infringements.

I know which I prefer for my holidays. 

[tring]

29 minutes ago, grapau27 said:

But the hotel won't insist everyone stops in the hotel unless they arrange a bubbled excursion for their guests.

As others have said there will be mingling in the resort's and attractions but only ship guests will be constrained.

After 54 cruises and having been on many excursions I know  it is impossible to keep everyone in a bubble because people wander off,some are walking restricted etc.

 

Sadly I think you are missing something here Graham, in the same way as life in the uk, including hotels, restaurants or anywhere else has changed considerably over the last year, holidays abroad have also changed.  The hotels are having to obey certain restrictions according to the requirements of their country/region and also any package holiday accommodation has to be assessed according to the COVID safety levels.  That means, for instance, that sun beds are being placed further apart and all our social distancing procedures etc. are happening there as well.  We are booked to go to Lanzarote next month (yet to be cancelled) and have been looking into life over there it seems that anywhere in a public place outdoors requires a mask to be worn, even if strolling along a quiet country road or sea front!!

 

I do see a cruise ship as quite a different place with so many indoor spaces that would, even with half the number of passengers, still be relatively crowded.  Also the potential transmission from port to port.  Depending upon required restrictions at the time, I do believe that ship's tours could be kept away from the local population, by restricting the sort of visits offered and/or possibly having certain routes separated off by barriers - they are in place in some restaurants shops in the UK now.  It has already been the case that people leaving a "bubbled tour" were refused access to re-board a cruise ship and made to return home at their own expense.

Edited February 2, 2021 by tring

[joeecco]

1 minute ago, terrierjohn said:

I know why you say that, but I would like to see the comparison of CDC, or whatever is the UK equivalent, reports of hotel vs cruise line health infringements.

I know which I prefer for my holidays. 

Me too. But they don’t seem to draw these comparisons.

 

How many people have said to you ‘oh Cruises are floating petri dishes’ over the years of you cruising when they’ve never actually stepped foot onboard one. The media are poisonous. 
 

We were amazed at how often they were cleaning onboard our first cruise. And when someone was poorly in the corridor, we thought they had been a nuclear bomb dropped at how many staff appeared in complete hazmat suits! 
 

I think this is one thing we can all agree on, every cruise line has taken hygiene incredibly seriously compared to lots of hotels. 

[Dermotsgirl]

3 minutes ago, terrierjohn said:

I was looking at the effectiveness of the flu vaccine on the NHS website this morning, and from memory it impressively reduces infections, hospitalization, ICU stays etc.  So we have to hope that vaccination will have an even greater impact on covid, since we are vaccinating most of the population and not just the over 60s, which has generally been the case with flu.

As regards mutations this has regularly been handled with modifying the flu vaccine, so presumably covid vaccines can similarly be tweaked.

I think the problem is that we are in a global pandemic, and, because the virus has access to so many hosts, it seems to be mutating at a fast rate. Yes, we can tweak the vaccine, but I wonder what happens if the virus mutates so much in a short time - do we go back and give the most vulnerable people who were vaccinated first the tweaked vaccine, or do we carry on with the vaccination programme as planned.  Then, what would happen if the virus mutated again the following month.  

 

Because the virus is changing all the time, it feels as if it's starting to slip out of control again.  The pandemic needs to be brought under control on land, before we can even think about cruising, I'm sad to say. 

[Harry Peterson]

3 hours ago, wowzz said:

No you can't, because, as was discussed at length when the policy was announced, the new restrictions are not considered to be a significant change to the T&Cs. You might not like the policy, but you will face a long and costly battle if you want a refund. 

 

Not necessarily, because it’s not P&O who decide the meaning of the words ‘significant alteration’ but the courts, and P&O have a lot of form for offering full refunds on the basis of non-disclosure agreements if they’re sufficiently convinced that you’re willing and able to take them on via the small claims procedure.  You can succeed, and others will confirm that they have too, but it requires application and some background work.

 

Much more difficult under the current T&C, but for starters how does your Clause 40 compare with the present one, below, Angeliquer?

 

40.                          Whilst P&O Cruises will do its best not to cancel or to make any alteration to a Package after a booking has been made, such changes are sometimes necessary. Most alterations made by P&O Cruises will not be significant and P&O Cruises has the right to make such alterations without paying the Guest compensation. Any alterations made by P&O Cruises to their pre and post departure requirements and procedures for reasons of health and safety (such as any alterations required in response to Coronavirus (COVID-19)) are  unlikely to constitute significant alterations and such alterations do not give the Guest the right to compensation or the right to cancel the Package without charge. P&O Cruises shall nevertheless be entitled at any time prior to departure to cancel the Contract or to change and/or curtail the Package where this reasonably becomes necessary on operational, commercial or other grounds. P&O Cruises will inform the Guest or the Guest’s travel agent of any such cancellation or change of Package as quickly as possible (with, where appropriate, written confirmation as soon as reasonably possible thereafter). If P&O Cruises makes a significant alteration to the Package the Guest will have the choice of either accepting the alteration, accepting an offer of an alternative Package of comparable standard if available (P&O Cruises will refund any price difference if the alternative is of a lower value) or cancelling the Package and receiving a full refund of all monies paid. The Guest recognises and agrees that it will not normally be possible for P&O Cruises to offer an appropriate substitute Package which is available at about the same time as and/or with a similar itinerary to that originally booked, but P&O Cruises will do its best to provide a suitable alternative Package of similar duration and value. The Guest must notify P&O Cruises of his/her decision as soon as reasonably possible and in any event not later than 14 days of being informed of the significant alteration.

 

Harry

Edited February 2, 2021 by Harry Peterson

[latserrof]

22 minutes ago, joeecco said:

Who does the media target most, hotels or cruise lines?

 

 

Let's blame "the media" for all the problems the cruise lines had with the virus.

[terrierjohn]

5 minutes ago, Dermotsgirl said:

I think the problem is that we are in a global pandemic, and, because the virus has access to so many hosts, it seems to be mutating at a fast rate. Yes, we can tweak the vaccine, but I wonder what happens if the virus mutates so much in a short time - do we go back and give the most vulnerable people who were vaccinated first the tweaked vaccine, or do we carry on with the vaccination programme as planned.  Then, what would happen if the virus mutated again the following month.  

 

Because the virus is changing all the time, it feels as if it's starting to slip out of control again.  The pandemic needs to be brought under control on land, before we can even think about cruising, I'm sad to say. 

DG, most of the experts are not alarmed with these mutations, they are to be expected and they all seem to expect that the current vaccines will still provide a reasonable degree of protection. They do seem to accept that an annual vaccination might be needed, but even here as infection rates worldwide subside, these might last more than 12 months, which of course will ease the pressure on the vaccination process.

[joeecco]

1 minute ago, latserrof said:

Let's blame "the media" for all the problems the cruise lines had with the virus.

Sorry, think you read something I didn’t write. 
 

‘Blame’ didn’t appear in my post, only yours. 

Edited February 2, 2021 by joeecco

[molecrochip]

Hello - and welcome.

 

A few points from me to add to this really good discussion.

• Its not for everyone. Sorry, but the aim is for anyone that wants to cruise under these new rules to do so. It's accepted some won't.
• You're not a prisoner as some have suggested. If you really want to leave the ship on your own, you can. But you won't be allowed back on board and you'll have to make your own way home.
• I'm expecting the price of tours to come down with potentially some kind of multi-buy / package offer.
• A number of foreign attractions are looking at visitor bubbles. So for example, 12 people may bubble together during their tour around the Colosseum in Rome. This will significantly reduce entry capacity and pre-arranged tour groups such as cruise ships may have the upper-hand here.
• There is a port-to-port transmission risk. Look at the Hurtigruten restart to see how unpopular multiple port transmission was. 
• The big risk is on-ship transmission. Not because it can't spread in the same way it can in a hotel, but because if you're many hours from shore, and there are a significant number of people really ill, you have a massive problem. You can't just call an Ambulance.
• Pre-approve tours in bubbles assists the ship with operating a track and trace service. The ship will know, a) who you were on tour with; b) who was at your table at dinner; c) whose kids were in the kids club with you. They will know d) who was in the spar at the same time; e) who was playing deck quoits with you. It won't surprise me if you are seated in each of the bars so that they can monitor who is sat where.

So the solution is to ensure that the ship is a sterile area; everyone entering is checked. The pre-approved ship tours will have been designed to be as sterile as possible in their interactions with the port of call therefore again reducing the risk of bringing the virus back on board ship.

 

As for the tracking, it sounds a bit big brother but most of it already happens because the data is capture when you buy something, order a drink, order food.

[tring]

3 minutes ago, Dermotsgirl said:

I think the problem is that we are in a global pandemic, and, because the virus has access to so many hosts, it seems to be mutating at a fast rate. Yes, we can tweak the vaccine, but I wonder what happens if the virus mutates so much in a short time - do we go back and give the most vulnerable people who were vaccinated first the tweaked vaccine, or do we carry on with the vaccination programme as planned.  Then, what would happen if the virus mutated again the following month.  

 

Because the virus is changing all the time, it feels as if it's starting to slip out of control again.  The pandemic needs to be brought under control on land, before we can even think about cruising, I'm sad to say. 

 

I think you are getting a little too concerned about this.  Susan Hopkins did say last night that if the vaccine needs to be tweaked it would likely be a booster that is required.  Yes each mutation is different, but are very minor changes in themselves so it would likely need a good few of them to make a vaccine totally ineffective.  Hence, as Patrick Valance and other experts have said the vaccines will almost certainly still have an effect, but that effect will be reduced over time (perhaps a year) as it is still hoped they would stop the virus being so virulent that it makes people so ill as it can now.

 

My own thought is that given, perhaps a one year vaccination gap, they may be able to change a vaccine more regularly, (e.g. six monthly), so it is used on a rolling basis with perhaps different people getting different vaccines in any calendar year.  Obviously though, what is done remains to be seen - they may not want to take my advice 🙂

 

I do think that life could be quite different for a few years to come, but like last summer, we will learn to live with some of the more problematic restrictions. 

[grapau27]

20 minutes ago, tring said:

 

Sadly I think you are missing something here Graham, in the same way as life in the uk, including hotels, restaurants or anywhere else has changed considerably over the last year, holidays abroad have also changed.  The hotels are having to obey certain restrictions according to the requirements of their country/region and also any package holiday accommodation has to be assessed according to the COVID safety levels.  That means, for instance, that sun beds are being placed further apart and all our social distancing procedures etc. are happening there as well.  We are booked to go to Lanzarote next month (yet to be cancelled) and have been looking into life over there it seems that anywhere in a public place outdoors requires a mask to be worn, even if strolling along a quiet country road or sea front!!

 

I do see a cruise ship as quite a different place with so many indoor spaces that would, even with half the number of passengers, still be relatively crowded.  Also the potential transmission from port to port.  Depending upon required restrictions at the time, I do believe that ship's tours could be kept away from the local population, by restricting the sort of visits offered and/or possibly having certain routes separated off by barriers - they are in place in some restaurants shops in the UK now.  It has already been the case that people leaving a "bubbled tour" were refused access to re-board a cruise ship and made to return home at their own expense.

Good points.

It is easy to go into a pre- covid mindset of the way things were.

All we can do is see what develops and make our own minds up if it is what we want to do.

Hopefully the vaccines will make a big difference when a large number of the world population have been vaccinated.

Graham.

 

[grapau27]

35 minutes ago, Dermotsgirl said:

I don't think anybody can predict that. 

+1.

[wowzz]

31 minutes ago, tring said:

seems that anywhere in a public place outdoors requires a mask to be worn, even if strolling along a quiet country road or sea front!!

That was certainly the case when we were in Lanzarote in November, although if there were no people in sight, we did slip our masks off.

[yorkshirephil]

5 minutes ago, tring said:

 

I think you are getting a little too concerned about this.  Susan Hopkins did say last night that if the vaccine needs to be tweaked it would likely be a booster that is required.  Yes each mutation is different, but are very minor changes in themselves so it would likely need a good few of them to make a vaccine totally ineffective.  Hence, as Patrick Valance and other experts have said the vaccines will almost certainly still have an effect, but that effect will be reduced over time (perhaps a year) as it is still hoped they would stop the virus being so virulent that it makes people so ill as it can now.

 

My own thought is that given, perhaps a one year vaccination gap, they may be able to change a vaccine more regularly, (e.g. six monthly), so it is used on a rolling basis with perhaps different people getting different vaccines in any calendar year.  Obviously though, what is done remains to be seen - they may not want to take my advice 🙂

 

I do think that life could be quite different for a few years to come, but like last summer, we will learn to live with some of the more problematic restrictions. 

That is pretty much how I think it will pan out, one advantage with the covid vaccines are there will be all the financial support required to modify and manufacture updated versions, the infrastructure will be in place which will ease the burden in coming years, we are on a learning curve and I am sure we will beat this, of course there will be hiccups on the way as always.