Compulsory offshore excursions due to Covid with P&O

[molecrochip]

Re: clause 40, I don't believe that tours are included in the Package. I believe that Package is limited to voyage, destinations, travel class and method.

 

Re: "floating petri dishes" its a sad fact that transmission on cruise ships is more similar to a elderly care home than it is in a hotel. This is all due to the method of transmission via close contact, buffet tongs etc.  In a hotel people go out of the building; on a cruise ship people are captive (together with the virus).

 

That said, the media blame it on the air conditioning and this is just not really accurate as the air conditioning is no different to modern hotels and modern offices.

Edited February 2, 2021 by molecrochip

[tring]

25 minutes ago, Harry Peterson said:

 

Not necessarily, because it’s not P&O who decide the meaning of the words ‘significant alteration’ but the courts, and P&O have a lot of form for offering full refunds on the basis of non-disclosure agreements if they’re sufficiently convinced that you’re willing and able to take them on via the small claims procedure.  You can succeed, and others will confirm that they have too, but it requires application and some background work.

 

Much more difficult under the current T&C, but for starters how does your Clause 40 compare with the present one, below, Angeliquer?

 

40.                          Whilst P&O Cruises will do its best not to cancel or to make any alteration to a Package after a booking has been made, such changes are sometimes necessary. Most alterations made by P&O Cruises will not be significant and P&O Cruises has the right to make such alterations without paying the Guest compensation. Any alterations made by P&O Cruises to their pre and post departure requirements and procedures for reasons of health and safety (such as any alterations required in response to Coronavirus (COVID-19)) are  unlikely to constitute significant alterations and such alterations do not give the Guest the right to compensation or the right to cancel the Package without charge. P&O Cruises shall nevertheless be entitled at any time prior to departure to cancel the Contract or to change and/or curtail the Package where this reasonably becomes necessary on operational, commercial or other grounds. P&O Cruises will inform the Guest or the Guest’s travel agent of any such cancellation or change of Package as quickly as possible (with, where appropriate, written confirmation as soon as reasonably possible thereafter). If P&O Cruises makes a significant alteration to the Package the Guest will have the choice of either accepting the alteration, accepting an offer of an alternative Package of comparable standard if available (P&O Cruises will refund any price difference if the alternative is of a lower value) or cancelling the Package and receiving a full refund of all monies paid. The Guest recognises and agrees that it will not normally be possible for P&O Cruises to offer an appropriate substitute Package which is available at about the same time as and/or with a similar itinerary to that originally booked, but P&O Cruises will do its best to provide a suitable alternative Package of similar duration and value. The Guest must notify P&O Cruises of his/her decision as soon as reasonably possible and in any event not later than 14 days of being informed of the significant alteration.

 

Harry

 

Please read my post in #31.

 

In this instance it will not be P&O who are enforcing the changes, but they will be made according to criteria required by both our Government and any requirements for the port in question.  Hence legally it is a grey area according to someone with many years experience in a professional role in consumer work - especially the legal work.  It will be interesting to see what does happen with that going forward, but it is certainly not a clear cut situation.

 

Though as you say it could be worth contacting a cruise line or even an insurance company, if particularly unhappy about the situation, or for some reason cannot transfer to a later cruise (perhaps because of health reasons).  I do feel the situation will become clearer as time progresses, but how long that takes remains to be seen.

Edited February 2, 2021 by tring

[Windsurfboy]

3 hours ago, wowzz said:

No you can't, because, as was discussed at length when the policy was announced, the new restrictions are not considered to be a significant change to the T&Cs. You might not like the policy, but you will face a long and costly battle if you want a refund. 

 

I am not booked  till 2022 , but if needed I  think a hundred pounds to go to small claims court well worth the money. Even if P&O  were sure theyd win doubt if they'd like the publicity.

[wowzz]

1 minute ago, Windsurfboy said:

 

I am not booked  till 2022 , but if needed I  think a hundred pounds to go to small claims court well worth the money. Even if P&O  were sure theyd win doubt if they'd like the publicity.

Actually, you could argue that P&O would say that their policy showed how well they were protecting their customers, and that the publicity would be more in their favour. 

You would come over as someone intent on spreading Covid, with no thought for your fellow passengers ( Just how you could be portrayed, not my personal opinion)

[Harry Peterson]

9 minutes ago, molecrochip said:

Re: clause 40, I don't believe that tours are included in the Package. I believe that Package is limited to voyage, destinations, travel class and method.

Clause 40 applies to the contract entered into for the purchase of the holiday package.  A refund can be claimed if P&O make a significant alteration to the Package.

 

Under what I suspect was the wording of Clause 40 when this Package was purchased, it’s very difficult to see these newly imposed restrictions as anything other than a significant alteration, and I’m pretty confident that the courts would reach the same conclusion.

 

And I’m very confident that P&O would be keen to avoid such cases going to court, because of the precedent it would set.

[Windsurfboy]

4 minutes ago, wowzz said:

Actually, you could argue that P&O would say that their policy showed how well they were protecting their customers, and that the publicity would be more in their favour. 

You would come over as someone intent on spreading Covid, with no thought for your fellow passengers ( Just how you could be portrayed, not my personal opinion)

 

How could not wanting to go and asking for money back be spreading covid.

 

I'm sure the media would look at it as P&O trying to extract more money from passengers to do what they could do before for nothing

[Windsurfboy]

I agree with Harry, a rare statement!

[Harry Peterson]

7 minutes ago, wowzz said:

Actually, you could argue that P&O would say that their policy showed how well they were protecting their customers, and that the publicity would be more in their favour. 

You would come over as someone intent on spreading Covid, with no thought for your fellow passengers ( Just how you could be portrayed, not my personal opinion)

Not at all. You would be portrayed simply as a customer who paid for a particular product which was significantly changed into something very different.

 

Actually, you wouldn’t be portrayed at all, because P&O would settle with a NDA.

[tring]

1 hour ago, joeecco said:

So at what point do we get back to some sort of normal? We can’t spend the rest of our lives  running off if someone gets a little close. 

 

I think that "some sort of normal" is the crucial point.  As I see it we will gradually return towards the "sort of normal" that we used to understand.  Certainly I would love that whole progress to happen and for it to do so as quickly as possible, but realistically even the scientists, e.g. Patrick Valance  has consistently said this is not going away and we must learn to live with it.  Hopefully any "new normal" will not be too dissimilar from our previous lives and we can learn to live with it relatively quickly.

 

Must admit we do like the bigger separation between restaurant tables, and the generally quieter atmosphere that seems to be around, so can have it's advantages as well.

 

 

[molecrochip]

P&O aren't going to start giving refunds for adopting public health measures that are in place across wider society. Its worth remembering that P&O retain the right to stop you boarding their ship at any time. All they are doing is re-enforcing that they will use this right if you are not on one of their excursions. That is not a significant change.

 

At the time P&O announce their restart, at the time they confirm exactly what changes are in effect on their ships, if you are not interested then you can move your cruise to a future date. It's not in P&O's interest to force people to go on ships. They pent up demand also means they can likely resell your place.

 

Whilst P&O have listed numerous changes on their website, if mask wearing has been abandoned by April and they restart in April, then its unlikely they will implement that restriction.

 

As for CLIA, this does not bind cruise companies to follow their guidance - its just easier to do so at present. Cruise companies will ultimately restart with whatever restrictions in place they feel necessary for the safety of their passengers, crew and the communities that they visit.

[molecrochip]

As per the booking Ts and Cs:

 

“Travel Services” means the Cruise and any flights to and from the UK and any pre-cruise and/or post-cruise package which is sold at the same time as the Cruise which forms the package travel contract (hereinafter referred to as the “Package”), but not shore experiences or shuttle services;

 

So, insisting that you can only rejoin the ship if you've been on a P&O tour is not part of the package because you can stay on the ship and your package is not altered.

Edited February 2, 2021 by molecrochip

[majortom10]

1 minute ago, molecrochip said:

P&O aren't going to start giving refunds for adopting public health measures that are in place across wider society. Its worth remembering that P&O retain the right to stop you boarding their ship at any time. All they are doing is re-enforcing that they will use this right if you are not on one of their excursions. That is not a significant change.

 

At the time P&O announce their restart, at the time they confirm exactly what changes are in effect on their ships, if you are not interested then you can move your cruise to a future date. It's not in P&O's interest to force people to go on ships. They pent up demand also means they can likely resell your place.

 

Whilst P&O have listed numerous changes on their website, if mask wearing has been abandoned by April and they restart in April, then its unlikely they will implement that restriction.

 

As for CLIA, this does not bind cruise companies to follow their guidance - its just easier to do so at present. Cruise companies will ultimately restart with whatever restrictions in place they feel necessary for the safety of their passengers, crew and the communities that they visit.

Well if that is the case and will be there position then I am afraid many people, including myself, will be very upset and can see many more not ever sailing with P&O again and a minority will take legal action giving P&O more bad publicity. My next cruise on Arcadia in August which was booked in Sept/Oct 2019 way before Covid if P&O cancel then I will want a cash refund of my deposit and not FCC. If they dont cancel and refuse to return my cash deposit and expect me to either stay on the ship for 19nts or book their "bubbled" excursions then I will be definitely taking legal action.

[majortom10]

Having already got 3 cruises booked for 2022 I would not be interested at all in receiving a FCC or moving my booking to 2022.

[Harry Peterson]

8 minutes ago, molecrochip said:

P&O aren't going to start giving refunds for adopting public health measures that are in place across wider society. Its worth remembering that P&O retain the right to stop you boarding their ship at any time. All they are doing is re-enforcing that they will use this right if you are not on one of their excursions. That is not a significant change.

 

The point raised by the OP, though, was this:

 

"However the one that is sticking out for me is that they will not allow passengers to get off the cruise ship in ports unless they are booked on one of P&O approved excursions!!! "

 

It's impossible to view that as anything other than a 'significant alteration' to the holiday that was booked, and as such, depending on the wording at the time the OP booked, P&O will have little option but to refund - whether they like it or not.

 

You do, I think, have an interest to declare here?

[zap99]

35 minutes ago, wowzz said:

Actually, you could argue that P&O would say that their policy showed how well they were protecting their customers, and that the publicity would be more in their favour. 

You would come over as someone intent on spreading Covid, with no thought for your fellow passengers ( Just how you could be portrayed, not my personal opinion)

You will recall a few months ago, during the FCC debacle how many said they were never going to sail with P&O ever again. That seems to have been forgotten. Now it is what restrictions on board that would, or would not be acceptable, but not necessarily ' I will never sail with them again '. I wonder how bothered they would be by a bit of negative publicity. It seems to me folks memories are not that long.🤔

[majortom10]

There are still people occasionally popping up on P&Os Facebook page still complaining that they have not yet received their refunds from cruises cancelled by P&O. They have got to be very careful especially after the bad publicity over these last 12 months that they through their actions  get more with regards to their return to cruising

[zap99]

1 minute ago, majortom10 said:

There are still people occasionally popping up on P&Os Facebook page still complaining that they have not yet received their refunds from cruises cancelled by P&O. They have got to be very careful especially after the bad publicity over these last 12 months that they through their actions  get more with regards to their return to cruising

I think many major cruise lines get similar amounts of poor publicity. Not a scientific survey on my part, just a gut feeling from looking at other cc boards.

[bee-ess]

A major factor to us is if the cost of a Covid regulations cruise and then being unable to go ashore independently is still worth the cost.

 

We booked ourSept 2021 cruise in Oct 2019 when it was worth the price we paid. Now to us we would not pay the same amount for what is being offered let alone the ever increasing prices. I hope we know what the conditions/rules will be before we have to pay the final Balance which at the moment is 90 days prior.

Edited February 2, 2021 by bee-ess

[majortom10]

1 minute ago, zap99 said:

You will recall a few months ago, during the FCC debacle how many said they were never going to sail with P&O ever again. That seems to have been forgotten. Now it is what restrictions on board that would, or would not be acceptable, but not necessarily ' I will never sail with them again '. I wonder how bothered they would be by a bit of negative publicity. It seems to me folks memories are not that long.🤔

I have not booked a P&O cruise since Sept/Oct 2019 when I booked Britannia May 2021 and Arcadia 2021. I have moved my Britannia cruise to a Baltic in May 2022 and not interested in moving my August cruise on Arcadia to 2022 or the offer of a FCC. I said some time back that personally hope that P&O neither cancel or as rumoured at the time sell Arcadia but was heavily criticised by many on here.

[joeecco]

The boycott brigade are out again 😂

 

If this is the only thing people have to get annoyed about in there life right now, I’d say it’s a nice life 😂 

[joeecco]

34 minutes ago, majortom10 said:

Well if that is the case and will be there position then I am afraid many people, including myself, will be very upset and can see many more not ever sailing with P&O again and a minority will take legal action giving P&O more bad publicity. My next cruise on Arcadia in August which was booked in Sept/Oct 2019 way before Covid if P&O cancel then I will want a cash refund of my deposit and not FCC. If they dont cancel and refuse to return my cash deposit and expect me to either stay on the ship for 19nts or book their "bubbled" excursions then I will be definitely taking legal action.

I’m sorry but every cruise line will be the same, especially the larger Corps. So it’s not ‘never cruise with P&O again’ it would be ‘never cruise again’. 
 

i look forward to being back in a ship, whether I can explore the shores alone or on a guided trip, I think life is worth appreciating even more so after the last 12 months. 

[ace2542]

6 hours ago, angeliquer said:

I just saw on P&O's website that they are making few changes on their cruises due to the pandemic which I guess is fair enough.

However the one that is sticking out for me is that they will not allow passengers to get off the cruise ship in ports unless they are booked on one of P&O approved excursions!!! 

 

What I like most about cruises is being able to get off the ship and explore and get lost in the cities on my own. Not only will I not be able to do what I want on the cruise but they will charge me a premium to have to go on excursions which I have no interest in!

 

My cruise is booked for November 2021 and if this new rule is still applicable I will be cancelling.

 

See below the link to P&O website: 

https://www.pocruises.com/cruise-with-confidence?otprrf=direct

 

I have also copied and pasted a couple of their FAQ from their website

 

Why can't I explore independently? Why can't I leave the ship without booking a shore experience?

In line with the approved health protocols all shore experiences will be on organised excursions only using vetted operators who will be subject to regular testing and ongoing guidance.

Our shore experience operators will be subject to new screening and guidance/ temperature checks/and or health screening may be carried out prior to boarding the ship after time on shore.

As guests can only go on shore on an organised excursion, does this mean the tour is included in the cost of our holiday or is it an additional charge?

We are currently working on a new programme that will be available including options at a lower price and available to purchase via My P&O Cruises eight weeks prior to departure.  The new programme and additional options will ensure that we have options available for all guests to travel ashore.

What if you get refused permission to re-board?. What happens to your luggage? Will they pack it up for you and bring it to you? Or will they just destroy it?

[jeanlyon]

'who knows, not planning on giving that a try!!

[Harry Peterson]

1 hour ago, bee-ess said:

A major factor to us is if the cost of a Covid regulations cruise and then being unable to go ashore independently is still worth the cost.

 

We booked ourSept 2021 cruise in Oct 2019 when it was worth the price we paid. Now to us we would not pay the same amount for what is being offered let alone the ever increasing prices. I hope we know what the conditions/rules will be before we have to pay the final Balance which at the moment is 90 days prior.

Just by way of reassurance, the terms and conditions applying when you booked will still apply.

 

Any variations from that may or may not amount to a significant alteration, depending on what the variations are. If they are significant, a very important word, you are entitled to a full refund if you choose.

[Adammara]

In January 2017 we booked a cruise for that late autumn on Cunards Queen Elizabeth (the same T&C apply) , it was going to be a treat and we booked the cheapest Princess Suite at at cost of around £6000. As the year went on we saw the price fall and fall, eventually ending up as 53% of the price we paid. Naturally, I asked to cancel the cruise and be refunded as I considered this a 'substantial' change to our booking, and was ready to fight them. They offered us a substantial upgrade to a Queens Suite, retaining our OBC and free drinks package our TA gave us.  Without doubt the best cruise ever for us!

 

Having been on 44 cruises and done all the tours that interest us, we loved the independent trip ashore,  even if it was only to get off the ship for a while for a drink ashore sometimes. Looks like we won't be cruising anytime soon now!