The Final Shot

[jetsfan58]

By now we are all well aware of the vaccines and the lineup awaiting to get them. It appears that it is taking a longer than originally anticipated time to get the first wave of 65+ and the medical community vaccinated. Mother nature stepped in this week (with wicked cold and single digit temperatures) and slowed down the transport of the needed medicine. Now we are being told that even a third shot/dose may be needed? Can we please just get everyone at least one shot to get the total US vaccinated please? At the current rate of vaccination, in conjunction with all of the additional daily distractions, we may not Cruise until 2022? 

 

I want to open a honest and transparent discussion regarding the Cruise lines and their obligation to "wait" until all Cruisers are vaccinated prior to onboarding? Will this type of possible "mandate" add additional negativity to the already questioning Cruise faithful?     

[BoozinCroozin]

What is their plan for those that cannot be vaccinated and are completely healthy to travel? I am talking about everyone under the age of 16. There is no vaccine for them and the earliest will be is sometime in 2022 at the earliest. Should families with children be banned from cruising? The answer is no. They will face massive backlash and most likely a Class Action lawsuit for age discrimination. Then you have the others that have religious reasons not to be vaccinated.

 

I am 100% in agreement that anyone that is eligible to receive the vaccine be vaccinated. By the end of June there should be enough to vaccinate 250M people in the US. Take out the under 16 age group and you have maybe 90% of the US vaccinated.

[Tippyton]

16 minutes ago, BoozinCroozin said:

What is their plan for those that cannot be vaccinated and are completely healthy to travel? I am talking about everyone under the age of 16. There is no vaccine for them and the earliest will be is sometime in 2022 at the earliest. Should families with children be banned from cruising? The answer is no. They will face massive backlash and most likely a Class Action lawsuit for age discrimination. Then you have the others that have religious reasons not to be vaccinated.

 

I am 100% in agreement that anyone that is eligible to receive the vaccine be vaccinated. By the end of June there should be enough to vaccinate 250M people in the US. Take out the under 16 age group and you have maybe 90% of the US vaccinated.

Don't forget the ?? percent (20-30?) that have had Covid already....

[BoozinCroozin]

10 minutes ago, Tippyton said:

Don't forget the ?? percent (20-30?) that have had Covid already....

Me included in that number.

[tigereye]

Please  remember that those who have already had the Virus still need 1 vaccine. Is it better to leave out everyone from cruising or just those who have not had the vaccine? No opinion, just asking.

[crewsweeper]

Not everyone wants a vaccine.  Lots of fearmongering on social media.  Just like the fear of the spread of COVID itself. Part of the that is related to the virus's unknowns in the early stages of the pandemic.

 

World wide there have been 111 million+ cases since the beginning.  That's only of the world population.  Over 85 million have recovered.  23 million are active of which less than 100,000 are severe. 2.5 million have died but that only 3% of the total cases.   The majority of deaths have been people over 75 and many of those have had pre-morbid conditions, like pneumonia and other respiratory ailments or diseases that impact the immunity system.  Few under 50 have died.  Yet  the lockdowns and media push is that the virus spreads rapidly and to everybody.

 

Don't flame me, all those who have suffered and all who have died makes me very sad. But I hope down the road, the powers that be handle the virus as a medical risk management issue like the flu and develop means of better protection and lessening of symptoms.  Masks are fine as far as they go, but once wet from breathing they lose their effectiveness.  Pack a few cases of N-95 masks instead of sodas on the next cruise..  Handwashing helps on a lot of other respiratory ailments.  Flu cases have dropped considerably for example.  On cruises hand sanitation and cleaning of common public areas can go a long way to stopping cases of NORO.

.  

[bitemyfly]

I’m not sure if any company is going to wait till everyone is vaccinated before starting to cruise, I believe it will evolve over time.

I can’t think of a legitimate cruise line that will risk starting cruising and becoming a spreader let alone a super spreader of the virus. 
coupling that with countries not waiting to risk allowing them in a spreading the virus.

I believe the free market will respond to both government and public concerns and the ones that do start cruising first.

how or what they implement and when they respond who knows, perhaps at first it starts with vaccinated only, all I do know is it’s in many people arms  and the numbers of vaccinated is growing daily .. 

[clo]

2 hours ago, BoozinCroozin said:

I am talking about everyone under the age of 16. There is no vaccine for them and the earliest will be is sometime in 2022 at the earliest. Should families with children be banned from cruising? The answer is no. They will face massive backlash and most likely a Class Action lawsuit for age discrimination.

Does age discrimination apply to children? I didn't know that.

[BoozinCroozin]

2 minutes ago, clo said:

Does age discrimination apply to children? I didn't know that.

In the US it will. Cruising is not like buying alcohol.

[ninjacat123]

9 minutes ago, BoozinCroozin said:

In the US it will. Cruising is not like buying alcohol.

My daughter works as a life guard at our local Y.  She couldn't become certified to be able to work that job until she was 15.  Could she have filed an age discrimination complaint if she wanted to be certified and work at 14?  Just curious...

[evandbob]

As time goes on and more research is completed and data analyzed, a COVID dose level for minors should be found.

 

Triage of the pandemic means dealing with the most important, dire, or life threatening situations first, and then moving on to find dosages for  less threatened populations.  Kids will not be forgotten, but will get protection when their turn in the vaccine lottery comes around.

[jetsfan58]

Carnival family and friends great responses. I really appreciate your candid vernacular. There are really no right or wrong answers but I do hope that the Carnival executives are listening to us. We all have to pray and hope that this Virus is subsided very soon. In my opinion, the only individuals that should be concerned about the vaccines are pregnant and/or expecting women and individuals with many pre-existing conditions. I really feel that more work has to be done in these two demographics.   

 

I am not excluding children of any age as they are human, American citizens and therefore prone to becoming a victim of this virus. Carnival and the entire Cruise Industry has a really difficult task of evaluating profitability vs. safety? Their ultimate decision will tell us a lot about the character of the companies and the industry.

  

[cruisemom42]

Much of what has been posted here is patently untrue.

 

FACT:  Cruises are 100% voluntary. There is no "need" or "requirement" for everyone (or in fact for anyone) to HAVE THE RIGHT to take a cruise.

 

FACT:  Lawyers have already opined -- including in an article published on Cruise Critic back in December -- that it is likely to be proved legal for cruise lines to require passengers to be vaccinated:

 

"From a legal standpoint, there is nothing at this point that would suggest that if you wanted to impose a pre-cruise vaccination requirement that either a government will stop you from doing it or that's there is a likelihood for civil liability," said Ronald Schirtzer, a partner at Weinberg, Wheeler, Hudgins, Gunn & Dial.

 

https://www.cruisecritic.com/articles.cfm?ID=5784

 

Even the editor of CC has been quoted as saying that while the mainstream lines may not want to limit their potential passenger pool by requiring vaccinations, it may be forced on them by becoming a requirement of certain ports.

 

FACT:  It has already been reported that testing of the vaccine in decreasing age cohorts is already underway:  right now for those down to age 12, followed by those to age 9 and so on. Fauci went on record as saying that by the time the 2021 fall school year starts, vaccines may be approved for all school-age children:

 

https://apnews.com/article/lifestyle-anthony-fauci-coronavirus-pandemic-infectious-diseases-coronavirus-vaccine-47af1ca6b75a2cedaac7923b7b084404

 

FACT:  Most protections around age discrimination are created solely to deal with employment practices. It has already been proven numerous times that certain groups of people can be excluded if it can be shown that including them raises serious risks to the health and safety of others -- passengers or crew -- or to themselves. Not only that, but there are already example on the books of several types of "age" or "health" limitations -- such as babies younger than a certain age on some ships and a few who ban children under the age of 18 -- such as Viking Ocean -- or even anyone younger than 50! (Saga, a UK line).

 

[BoozinCroozin]

59 minutes ago, ninjacat123 said:

My daughter works as a life guard at our local Y.  She couldn't become certified to be able to work that job until she was 15.  Could she have filed an age discrimination complaint if she wanted to be certified and work at 14?  Just curious...

We are not talking about a job and insurance requirements for that job. We are talking about a cruise that is advertised as a FAMILY vacation for adults and kids. And in all factual data, kids are far safer than anyone in Group 1A for vaccination even after they Group 1A are vaccinated. 

Edited February 19, 2021 by BoozinCroozin

[All That Jazz]

There is a common misapprehension that all "discrimination" is illegal. Certainly I would not expect a swimming pool to hire a 10 year old life guard. This is an example of reasonable and legal age discrimination. Viking Ocean Cruises from its inception did not permit children to cruise. Perfectly legal age discrimination.

 

Even prior to the covid crisis, cruisers had to verify their health status by signing a questionnaire prior to boarding. Someone with obvious flu symptoms would be denied boarding, no waivers. In this exceptional time, cruise lines do have the right and ability to "discriminate" against cruisers (and crew) of any age who cannot provide proof of vaccination. No waivers, no favors. A new corporate policy of protecting the health of cruisers and crew by insisting on proof of covid vaccination overrides any protestations of "but whatabout, but whatabout", let's SUE!

 

Crystal's newly announced policy:

"....according to the latest scientific data and expert guidance, we have made the decision that guests must be fully inoculated with a COVID-19 vaccine (with both doses if recommended by the manufacturer) at least 14 days prior to boarding any Crystal ship and will be asked to provide proof of vaccination before embarkation. " ......"Unfortunately, at this time we are unable to accommodate anyone, no matter what age, who has not been vaccinated. " 

 

In a year or two or three, this pandemic will die out and we will all return to whining about chair hogging and tipping.

[BoozinCroozin]

So, in the US, you only have to show "proof" not verification. Because your medical records are protected by HIPAA laws, an industry like the cruise lines cannot question what you are willing to provide as proof. All I need is get a forged card from China (that are easily available all over the place now), have my child's name on it, and all is good. Got it! So either the face the massive backlash and potential litigation if they place the requirements on or they accept anything as proof no matter what age (in the US).

[jetsfan58]

39 minutes ago, BoozinCroozin said:

We are not talking about a job and insurance requirements for that job. We are talking about a cruise that is advertised as a FAMILY vacation for adults and kids. And in all factual data, kids are far safer than anyone in Group 1A for vaccination even after they Group 1A are vaccinated. 

While kids may be suspected to be somewhat safer they are still contracting the virus. Until they are proven to be 100% void of catching the virus then our focus needs to remain on getting each US Citizen (infant to senior) vaccinated asap. I am not in the medical profession but I am in the right minded adult population. 

 

I would applaud the Industry if they said with the exceptions that I mentioned earlier "No Vaccine No Cruise".  Why try and draw a line in the sand where it doesn't belong.  

[lenquixote66]

5 hours ago, jetsfan58 said:

By now we are all well aware of the vaccines and the lineup awaiting to get them. It appears that it is taking a longer than originally anticipated time to get the first wave of 65+ and the medical community vaccinated. Mother nature stepped in this week (with wicked cold and single digit temperatures) and slowed down the transport of the needed medicine. Now we are being told that even a third shot/dose may be needed? Can we please just get everyone at least one shot to get the total US vaccinated please? At the current rate of vaccination, in conjunction with all of the additional daily distractions, we may not Cruise until 2022? 

 

I want to open a honest and transparent discussion regarding the Cruise lines and their obligation to "wait" until all Cruisers are vaccinated prior to onboarding? Will this type of possible "mandate" add additional negativity to the already questioning Cruise faithful?     

Which will occur first,cruising will resume or the Jets will win another Super Bowl ?

[clo]

3 hours ago, BoozinCroozin said:

In the US it will. Cruising is not like buying alcohol.

Not my point. With employment you can be age-discriminated against after age 60 IIRC. I have no idea if it works otherwise.

[clo]

2 hours ago, BoozinCroozin said:

So, in the US, you only have to show "proof" not verification.

Please define "verification."

[navybankerteacher]

5 hours ago, RiotAct said:

this is the wrong mentality.  Once everyone in the U.S. who’s higher risk has had the OPPORTUNITY to get the vaccine, it should be a go as far as cruising.

 

Of course, there’s the wrinkle with the foreign countries that cruise ships visit, but that’s being mitigated with Carnival’s rule about only taking sanctioned tours at each port.

In what way does simply having had the opportunity to get the vaccine accomplish anything?  A higher risk person who had the opportunity (but did not get the vaccine), along with every other person who did not get the vaccine is capable of becoming infected and spreading the virus.

 

 

[navybankerteacher]

3 minutes ago, clo said:

Please define "verification."

Don't you realize that a number of posters seem to be on the other side of the Looking Glass.  Being opposed to getting vaccinated should not be seen as being anit-vaxxing, and  proof of something should not be seen as verification.  Have you never experienced the difficulty of nailing Jello to the wall?

[clo]

1 minute ago, navybankerteacher said:

Don't you realize that a number of posters seem to be on the other side of the Looking Glass.  Being opposed to getting vaccinated should not be seen as being anit-vaxxing, and  proof of something should not be seen as verification.  Have you never experienced the difficulty of nailing Jello to the wall?

What I don't understand is why people want to go on and on about their non-factual beliefs. 

[navybankerteacher]

Just now, clo said:

What I don't understand is why people want to go on and on about their non-factual beliefs. 

This reminds me of the old lawyers' adage: "When the law is on your side, pound on the law; when the facts are on your side, pound on the facts; and when neither is on your side, pound on the table."

[jwattle]

4 hours ago, BoozinCroozin said:

So, in the US, you only have to show "proof" not verification. Because your medical records are protected by HIPAA laws, an industry like the cruise lines cannot question what you are willing to provide as proof. All I need is get a forged card from China (that are easily available all over the place now), have my child's name on it, and all is good. Got it! So either the face the massive backlash and potential litigation if they place the requirements on or they accept anything as proof no matter what age (in the US).

WHen cruise ships aren't US flagged, they can require you to show whatever proof they like...