Florida sues to reopen cruise ports

[nocl]

1 hour ago, cangelmd said:

 

I do think some of the CDCs response seems unreasonable - particularly the 12 hour thing - if that is scientifically important, why did we line up on a jetway to load an airplane, why can they use those jetways over and over? But I also  think that the cruise lines have sized up the CDC plan and just can’t make the money they need to make with some/any if the regulations.

 

The major outbreaks on cruise ships, including the most recent one, on the Hurtigruten ship, involve transmission from an earlier cruise (either crew or someone remaining on board) to the new passengers.  With the illness really spreading during the second cruise.  With the cruises limited to 7 days I expect that the 12 hour rule is to make sure that no one departing from a cruise comes in contact with anyone boarding the new cruise.  It does seem to be a brute force way of doing so and in some ports it might be able to be done without such a rule but in others not so much.

 

How many times have you seen when getting off of a cruise, passengers for the next cruise already arriving at the terminal waiting outside for the terminal to open so they can start the check in process.  Sometimes sitting on the same benches where departing guests are waiting for their transportation.  Where buses are taking passengers to the airport then immediately boarding new passengers going from the airport to the terminal, etc.

 

The 12 hour rule pretty much eliminates that potential interaction.

[Swampbabe]

5 minutes ago, Arizona Wildcat said:

Things are changing quickly.  Pfizer is about to request 12-15 year old approval.  Appointments are not difficult.  Certainly varies by state.  Each week another several million people are vaccinated relieving the pressure.

Yes the vaccinations are not 100% effective but the few that gets infected - mutations included - have milder symptoms with few to none hospitalized.  Infection rate after a vaccination is close to zero.  In Arizona we are in the 500 cases a day and falling.

As for anti vaxxers, neighbor 80+ will not be vaccinated because she got ill on a scarlet fever vaccine in the 1950s.  No reasoning with her.

Interesting. There is no vaccine for scarlet fever LOL

[KWW88]

14 minutes ago, nocl said:

Actually the data now says differently.  The original trials did not test for infection or asymptomatic infections, only symptomatic infections.  As a result it was UNKNOWN if the vaccine did prevent asymptomatic infection and/or spread.  As a result that unknown became the myth that the vaccine did not protect from infection only symptoms.

 

Since then new data has come out from new studies is Israel that shows that with Pfizer and Moderna vaccines (against the original strains an B.117) that they do reduce asymptomatic infection and transmission by 94%, very similar to the efficacy they demonstrated in the trials for symptomatic illness.

 

So based upon that data they do protect you against infection.

 

NIH is running a large trial in the US that is expected to complete in August that is also looking at the infection question.  When that completes, if it confirms the Israeli study, as expected, then that would provide the confirmation that the CDC is waiting for.

While I have read so many different articles on vax protection against the variants, still don't understand.  To your knowledge, will Moderna, Pfizer etc, provide the same level of protection against the variants?

[nocl]

7 minutes ago, KWW88 said:

While I have read so many different articles on vax protection against the variants, still don't understand.  To your knowledge, will Moderna, Pfizer etc, provide the same level of protection against the variants?

Moderna, Pfizer, AZ, J&J all provide protection against the original strain and the B.117 (UK variants).

 

There is a group of variants with a particular mutation that does have some vaccine resistance.  The most commonly referred to is B.1.351 (South African Variant) though there are others with the same type mutations.

 

With these it seems from data that Pfizer shows good efficacy (but probably lower that with the original strain and B.117 type variants).  J&J also shows good efficacy  against that strain from its clinical trial data in the high 70% range for original and B.117, in the high 50% range for B.1.351.

 

A trial in South Africa showed the AZ vaccine had  no  real efficacy (10%) against B.1.351 for symptomatic illness.  There were no serious cases or death in the study, but the number were small so it may provide protection against serious illness, but somewhat unknown.

 

Have not seen data on Moderna against B.1.351 but would expect it to behave like the Pfizer vaccine.

[Ride-The-Waves]

Until Florida politicians actually being to comprehend the threat of non-compliance with existing CDC safety protocols and stop advocating their political non-scientific babble, return to cruising will be  longer than needed.  In a Florida supermarket Sunday morning; several couples, one about 8 and a half months pregnant the other wondering the aisles unmasked trailed by two small children.  They were white and showed distain for others to include checkers and baggers.  Horrible example of any appreciation of the pandemic.  Of course this type of behavior is encouraged by Florida politicians in Tallahassee as they also seek to restrict health protocols at cruise ports.  The longer this attitude pervades with Florida politicians the longer it will take to resume cruising.

[harkinmr]

1 hour ago, Swampbabe said:

Interesting. There is no vaccine for scarlet fever LOL

Scarlet fever was, at one time, a very serious childhood illness.  There are now antibiotics that can be used against it.  My father had scarlet fever when he was 6 years old.  He died when he was 73 because of a heart defect that was caused by that infection.  It is still dangerous if left untreated.

Edited April 12, 2021 by harkinmr

[Ken the cruiser]

Here's some good news regarding the 12 hour separation rule.

 

CDC drops 12-hour separation mandate in cruise terminal guidance | seatrade-cruise.com (seatrade-cruise.com)

[Swampbabe]

17 minutes ago, harkinmr said:

Scarlet fever was, at one time, a very serious childhood illness.  There are now antibiotics that can be used against it.  My father had scarlet fever when he was 6 years old.  He died when he was 73 because of a heart defect that was caused by that infection.  It is still dangerous if left untreated.

I'm aware. I had scarlet fever myself as a small child.

[K.T.B.]

3 hours ago, harkinmr said:

I hate to break it to you, but the cruise lines are making vaccines mandatory (except maybe Carnival).  They know that vaccinated passengers and crew are their ticket to a safe return.  What DeSantis thinks about mandatory vaccines is immaterial.  He does not have the authority (no matter how much he pretends) to prevent cruise lines from requiring their passengers to be vaccinated.

 

Boom.

[KWW88]

1 minute ago, K.T.B. said:

 

Boom.

But it looks good on the evening news

[harkinmr]

7 minutes ago, Swampbabe said:

I'm aware. I had scarlet fever myself as a small child.

A fellow Melbourne resident here.  Hello!  Hope you are staying safe and well.

[paulh84]

Some apparent infight within the industry is stirring. Carnival's president says they are against a vaccine requirement while NCL says vaccines are the golden ticket to allow cruising from US ports again. Not sure how CLIA plays into all of this since they are acting as a mediator of sorts. If they can't even get on the same page, this will be slow going. 

 

 

[KWW88]

20 minutes ago, paulh84 said:

Some apparent infight within the industry is stirring. Carnival's president says they are against a vaccine requirement while NCL says vaccines are the golden ticket to allow cruising from US ports again. Not sure how CLIA plays into all of this since they are acting as a mediator of sorts. If they can't even get on the same page, this will be slow going. 

 

 

SO SO shocking that Carnival Corp would do this, why ruin the frat party!  Arnold reports up to Micky, nuff said...

[Mike981]

Instead, 'to the extent practicable'

In a new checklist for port and local health operators, CDC replaced the 'within the same 12-hour period' phrase in both references with 'to the extent practicable.'

[4774Papa]

4 hours ago, Ride-The-Waves said:

In 60 percent of US states vaccines are "available to everyone."  There are just no vaccines for everyone.  Take Georgia for example, my daughter's 17 and 16 year old daughters are eligible but cannot get an appointment.  Her husband is also eligible but no appointment.  State distribution is a mess.  The anti-vaxxers remain adamant they will not participate.  DeSantis and the cruise industry don't care about the health of Americans.  The foreign registered cruise industry only cares about $$$.  DeSantis is a politician's and only cares about himself.  If you really want to cruise there are 200,000 merchant seamen stranded on ships and I'm sure one of more will exchange places with you can be aboard a ship.  The efficacy of the vaccine is 95 percent, not 100 percent.  And then there are the mutants...

Careful, you crossed the line on getting into politics.

[K.T.B.]

26 minutes ago, KWW88 said:

SO SO shocking that Carnival Corp would do this, why ruin the frat party!  Arnold reports up to Micky, nuff said...

 

There's always one naysayer in the beginning.  This way when they acquiesce, he can say that he tried and look good to board members and anti-vaxxers.

[D C]

1 hour ago, Ken the cruiser said:

Here's some good news regarding the 12 hour separation rule.

 

CDC drops 12-hour separation mandate in cruise terminal guidance | seatrade-cruise.com (seatrade-cruise.com)

The REALLY good news is that they're actively making revisions instead of waiting another 5 months before doing anything. 

[Swampbabe]

1 hour ago, harkinmr said:

A fellow Melbourne resident here.  Hello!  Hope you are staying safe and well.

Same to you!

[neilrr]

5 hours ago, harkinmr said:

I hate to break it to you, but the cruise lines are making vaccines mandatory (except maybe Carnival).  They know that vaccinated passengers and crew are their ticket to a safe return.  What DeSantis thinks about mandatory vaccines is immaterial.  He does not have the authority (no matter how much he pretends) to prevent cruise lines from requiring their passengers to be vaccinated.

Amen!!! I totally agree with you... Forget about DeSantis  - he is only looking out for his political gain to  score a few points. He not worried about the safety of the people.

 

Until the cruise lines run the test cruises and have all the procedures in place, passengers are not going to take a chance.  I am all for a vaccination stamp on the passport. This must be done for all passenger and crew. Additionally, look at Europe - who will let you into their country and ports?? Even in the Caribbean - I know they want the tourist business -- but are they willing to sacrifice their lives or their family??? Most islands will not...

 

We have done over 40 cruises and want to get back to it, but until this gets straightened out -- no cruising for us... BTW We have had both our Pfizer shots and are still cautious and careful...

 

Hope to see everyone onboard soon...🛳️😊

 

Edited April 12, 2021 by neilrr

[harkinmr]

1 hour ago, Mike981 said:

Instead, 'to the extent practicable'

In a new checklist for port and local health operators, CDC replaced the 'within the same 12-hour period' phrase in both references with 'to the extent practicable.'

Oh good!  "To the extent practicable" means whatever means are "reasonably" necessary.  Now we can all argue about what's "reasonable". 😜

[cangelmd]

3 hours ago, Ken the cruiser said:

Here's some good news regarding the 12 hour separation rule.

 

CDC drops 12-hour separation mandate in cruise terminal guidance | seatrade-cruise.com (seatrade-cruise.com)

That is good news. That really read like an arbitrary number picked by someone who had never been on a gangway.

 I agree with another poster, someone who knows more than we do is speaking to CDC and getting traction - although I bet that was the port authorities, not cruiselines

[Ken the cruiser]

2 minutes ago, cangelmd said:

That is good news. That really read like an arbitrary number picked by someone who had never been on a gangway.

 I agree with another poster, someone who knows more than we do is speaking to CDC and getting traction - although I bet that was the port authorities, not cruiselines

Didn't make much sense when you have airports continually using gangways to load and unload passengers, sometimes using them minutes after passengers disembark. Anyway, it definitely would appear there are some behind the scenes negotiations going on.

[cangelmd]

2 hours ago, paulh84 said:

Some apparent infight within the industry is stirring. Carnival's president says they are against a vaccine requirement while NCL says vaccines are the golden ticket to allow cruising from US ports again. Not sure how CLIA plays into all of this since they are acting as a mediator of sorts. If they can't even get on the same page, this will be slow going. 

 

 

 All the cruise lines responses could be predicted by their pre-Covid business models. That a nice way of saying Celebrity thinks their best bet is to require vaccines and move to st Maarten because their clientele will follow them, while Carnival knows masking and vaccines may not play well with enough of their clientele to make the numbers work. Meanwhile Disney = crickets (of course they have a lot of other business to fall,back on).

[Ride-The-Waves]

56 minutes ago, Ken the cruiser said:

Didn't make much sense when you have airports continually using gangways to load and unload passengers, sometimes using them minutes after passengers disembark. Anyway, it definitely would appear there are some behind the scenes negotiations going on.

There is a significant difference in how jetways are used to move 150 passengers vis-a-vis a whole cruise terminal moving 4,000 or more passengers.  Modern jetways blow air continuously and passengers don't stay on the jetway for long.  The Florida cruise terminals and their gangways, even the new ones, can be very crowed and "pushy."  The need for controlled management of people movement is absolute.  Based on the numerous cruises we have sailed I don't see people embarking quickly and with courtesy.  Additionally, disembarkation is always a zoo with long lines, people piled up on long ramps, luggage areas mobbed, immigration to complete and now checking for COVID-19 testing and vaccine compliance.

[phoenix_dream]

6 hours ago, Arizona Wildcat said:

Things are changing quickly.  Pfizer is about to request 12-15 year old approval.  Appointments are not difficult.  Certainly varies by state.  Each week another several million people are vaccinated relieving the pressure.

Yes the vaccinations are not 100% effective but the few that gets infected - mutations included - have milder symptoms with few to none hospitalized.  Infection rate after a vaccination is close to zero.  In Arizona we are in the 500 cases a day and falling.

As for anti vaxxers, neighbor 80+ will not be vaccinated because she got ill on a scarlet fever vaccine in the 1950s.  No reasoning with her.

Appointments are not difficult?!?  Here in my state and county appointments are extremely difficult!  I spent hours online and on the phone trying to get an appointment for my 93 year old aunt.  I had to drive 2 1/2 hours each way to get my own shots.