New CDC Guidance 5/26, significant changes for masks and dining

[orville99]

34 minutes ago, jrapps said:

I agree with you, there may be one small problem...nowhere does the CDC mandate vaccines to sail. That could be a legal sticking point. If the CDC flat out said, no vaccine, no sail, then yes that might be a loophole. As long as the CDC allows you to sail unvaccinated, that kills this particular argument.

 

I still think ships will sail anyway with a vaccine requirement, and they will either ignore the law, find some other loophole around it, or mediate it out of existence.

While technically true, the cruise lines can (and in all probability will) cite the following segment in the new policy as their justification to follow the CDC's requirements for documentation:

 

Screening Testing of All Embarking and Disembarking Passengers for Restricted Voyages

Embarkation Day Testing	Viral (NAAT or antigen)	Not Applicable*
Disembarkation Testing ^	Viral (NAAT or antigen)	Not Applicable
Back-to-Back Sailing¥ Testing	Viral (NAAT or antigen)	Not Applicable

* While embarkation testing is not required, international travelers arriving in the U.S. are recommended to be tested 3-5 days after arrival, including those who are fully vaccinated. Cruise operators may follow this recommendation at their discretion.

^ Disembarkation testing is only required for voyages of more than 4 nights.

^¥ Back-to-back sailing refers to passengers who stay on board for two or more voyages.

• Cruise ship operators must collect specimens for SARS-CoV-2 viral testing³ as follows, unless passengers are fully vaccinated or have documentation of recovery in the past 90 days:
  • All⁴ newly embarking passengers on the day of embarkation.
  • All⁴ disembarking passengers if the voyage is more than 4 nights. Specimens may be collected up to 24-hours prior to disembarkation but results must be available prior to disembarking.
  • All⁴ passengers on back-to-back sailings prior to the ship sailing on the next voyage.

[livingonthebeach]

11 minutes ago, not-enough-cruising said:

Vaccines aren’t a CDC requirement, that is the problem with the above argument. 

 

True, which makes the matter that much more complicated at the onset.  There are many issues that need to be worked out and many players involved.

[not-enough-cruising]

11 minutes ago, livingonthebeach said:

 

True, which makes the matter that much more complicated at the onset.  There are many issues that need to be worked out and many players involved.

No doubt!

[not-enough-cruising]

13 minutes ago, orville99 said:

While technically true, the cruise lines can (and in all probability will) cite the following segment in the new policy as their justification to follow the CDC's requirements for documentation:

 

Screening Testing of All Embarking and Disembarking Passengers for Restricted Voyages

Embarkation Day Testing	Viral (NAAT or antigen)	Not Applicable*
Disembarkation Testing ^	Viral (NAAT or antigen)	Not Applicable
Back-to-Back Sailing¥ Testing	Viral (NAAT or antigen)	Not Applicable

* While embarkation testing is not required, international travelers arriving in the U.S. are recommended to be tested 3-5 days after arrival, including those who are fully vaccinated. Cruise operators may follow this recommendation at their discretion.

^ Disembarkation testing is only required for voyages of more than 4 nights.

^¥ Back-to-back sailing refers to passengers who stay on board for two or more voyages.

• Cruise ship operators must collect specimens for SARS-CoV-2 viral testing³ as follows, unless passengers are fully vaccinated or have documentation of recovery in the past 90 days:
  • All⁴ newly embarking passengers on the day of embarkation.
  • All⁴ disembarking passengers if the voyage is more than 4 nights. Specimens may be collected up to 24-hours prior to disembarkation but results must be available prior to disembarking.
  • All⁴ passengers on back-to-back sailings prior to the ship sailing on the next voyage.

This document only reinforces the fact that the CDC does not require vaccines, due to the fact that they have outlined 2 independent pathways for each cohort. 

[mauraoel]

1 hour ago, orville99 said:

Yes, the Florida law states that it can be overridden by a contrary requirement from a higher government entity. Fed trumps State. CDC is Fed, and if they say no proof no sail, their rules win.

 

Finally I haven't wanted to argue with everyone but truly believed this was the case from the beginning.

[coffeebean]

I found this on another forum. I apologize if this has already been posted on this thread as I have not read the entire thread yet.....

 

CDC significantly relaxes cruise rules for vaccinated passengers

[orville99]

59 minutes ago, not-enough-cruising said:

This document only reinforces the fact that the CDC does not require vaccines, due to the fact that they have outlined 2 independent pathways for each cohort. 

I don't have time or patience to delve into Tortious Interference case law, but if I were counsel to the cruise lines or CLIA, I would probably be preparing my briefs and opening arguments as we speak.

Edited May 27, 2021 by orville99

[suzyluvs2cruise]

12 hours ago, Coralc said:

A lot of counties are still orange. We are still orange. They are dropping the tier system altogether on June 15th, so I don't think it will matter. It would be nice if more people receive the vaccine. 

 True.....my comment was more about how a date for everything to reopen could be announced weeks ago. 

[harkinmr]

2 hours ago, jrapps said:

I don't think they will. I think it is easier for them to do "No Restriction" cruises for the 95% vax, and "All Restrictions" for the under 95%. Trying to carve out areas for vaccinated people on a mixed-cruise is a disaster in the making.

This. 

[harkinmr]

2 hours ago, orville99 said:

Yes, the Florida law states that it can be overridden by a contrary requirement from a higher government entity. Fed trumps State. CDC is Fed, and if they say no proof no sail, their rules win.

 

If it were only that simple. Federal does trump state and that kind of carve out appears in all legislation. The issue here is the consistent and repeated insistence by the Governor of Florida that his vaccine ban DOES in fact apply to the cruise lines. That is the true sticking point and the cruise lines either defy him or fight him legally.  Neither choice is good. Someone needs to tell the Governor to get out of the way. 

[harkinmr]

2 hours ago, kearney said:

So what has all the fuss been about. I argued that I couldn't see how a state could interfere with cruise lines ...but had no idea that the issue was already addressed in the law itself.

There is no carve out in the law. The CDC is not mandating vaccines and they have stated that they will not. This is a private business mandate. That is the legal challenge. 

[Blauelini]

11 hours ago, Tolkmit said:

 

Sounds like designated vaccinated passengers only areas will operate the same as 95% cruises. So what's most likely is the vast majority of the ship being designated as vaccinated only. So adults needing masks for the kids pools, the kids areas, and one specific restaurant, and getting on and off the ship on port days. But everything else, the theater, the buffet, the rest of the restaurants, the main pools, the casinos, and the bars, being off-limits to kids and unvaccinated passengers; and working the exact same as a 95% cruise for everyone else.

Unfortunately,  it appears they will not being doing this and all passengers on Royal cruises (due to them wanting kids causing them to fall below 95%) will be mandatory mask and social distancing.  Guests on Celebrity and NCL cruises are going to have it so much better. 

[orville99]

4 minutes ago, harkinmr said:

There is no carve out in the law. The CDC is not mandating vaccines and they have stated that they will not. This is a private business mandate. That is the legal challenge. 

You simply don't connect the dots...DW and I are fully vaccinated. We arrive at the terminal in PC to board our next cruise. The agent states that per the CDC's CSO rules, they have to test us for covid unless we are vaccinated, but they can't require us to show them documentation, and then they start to prep the nasal swabs to shove up our noses. We say wait, you can't require documentation, but are you prevented from viewing ours if we voluntarily show it to you. 

 

My take is anyone who doesn't want a swab shoved up their nose will gladly volunteer to show their vaccination records, because under the current rules, those are the only two options the CDC will accept.

[Blauelini]

So everyone reading this understands, RCCL own Richard Fain has stated Royal will not be able to meet the 95% threshold. The only Royal Caribbean Group line that will is Celebrity. They will require a vaccine for those eligible but due to large amounts of children and families,  they will not meet it. On some cruises ,depending on amount of kids, it could be in the 70 or 80% range. Thus RCCL has elected to do test cruises (every single ship will have to do them) and sail under the CSO's stricter guidelines. Thus the no mask, no social distancing changes from yesterday will not apply to Royal cruises. Strict mask wearing,  no self serve buffets and social distancing, limited capacities for onboard events will be in full effect for a long time. They are really screwing every vaxxed person that cruises without children. I encourage you to reach out to RCCL to tell them your thoughts. 

[dswallow]

4 hours ago, BecciBoo said:

And that would be who?  Seat belts only protect those who wear them, lack of them does not endanger anybody else.  Yours is an apples to onion comparison.

 

Many of the seat belt laws came into being claiming to assist making insurance more affordable (for everybody) by reducing injuries and deaths in accidents, not just saving the life of the wearer.

[mek]

49 minutes ago, Blauelini said:

So everyone reading this understands, RCCL own Richard Fain has stated Royal will not be able to meet the 95% threshold. The only Royal Caribbean Group line that will is Celebrity. They will require a vaccine for those eligible but due to large amounts of children and families,  they will not meet it. On some cruises ,depending on amount of kids, it could be in the 70 or 80% range. Thus RCCL has elected to do test cruises (every single ship will have to do them) and sail under the CSO's stricter guidelines. Thus the no mask, no social distancing changes from yesterday will not apply to Royal cruises. Strict mask wearing,  no self serve buffets and social distancing, limited capacities for onboard events will be in full effect for a long time. They are really screwing every vaxxed person that cruises without children. I encourage you to reach out to RCCL to tell them your thoughts. 

Honestly, I simply don't care what Royal does or does not do now. I will sit back and enjoy watching what unfolds over the summer and early fall. 

 I have an Oasis cruise for 11/28/21 and there may be no restrictions by then, but that is totally unknown territory right now.  I will go on that cruise if it sails and I have a balcony, so if I don't like the rules then I will retreat to my cabin and spend time out there relaxing.

Going forward if other lines offer me something I still enjoy and Royal doesn't, then I will cruise with them - life will go on.

[NateUpNorth]

1 hour ago, Blauelini said:

So everyone reading this understands, RCCL own Richard Fain has stated Royal will not be able to meet the 95% threshold. The only Royal Caribbean Group line that will is Celebrity. They will require a vaccine for those eligible but due to large amounts of children and families,  they will not meet it. ................................................... Strict mask wearing,  no self serve buffets and social distancing, limited capacities for onboard events will be in full effect for a long time. They are really screwing every vaxxed person that cruises without children. I encourage you to reach out to RCCL to tell them your thoughts. 

Or put another way have decided that their target market to keep their operation solvent is not "vaxxed only" persons.
Having said that, he did say Celebrity would meet the threshold so I'm not sure you're getting "screwed over" when they have made a choice available. It's perhaps just not the choice you like?

Edited May 27, 2021 by NateUpNorth

[ArthurUSCG]

17 minutes ago, dswallow said:

 

Many of the seat belt laws came into being claiming to assist making insurance more affordable (for everybody) by reducing injuries and deaths in accidents, not just saving the life of the wearer.

Yep, insurance adjusters rule the world thru the cost of doing business.

 

RCL: How much per passenger to insure in the event of a COVID outbreak on a ship?

Insurance company:  That coverage for no vaccination requirement will be $XXXX, but if you require all adults to be vaccinated it will be $XXX and if you require 95% vaccination rate of all passengers it will be $X

RCL: vaccination it is.

[3kidsncats]

5 hours ago, BecciBoo said:

That sentence was below the "not available yet" at bottom of page, keep looking.  You should be able to click on that and tell us what happens...pretty please!

Nothing — “you have no cruise documents available at this time”.  I tried the app and the website.  

[BecciBoo]

I don't think the new check in protocols are quite ready, we used the app last cruise just to check in but the current web page only has the standard announcement:

 

Royal Caribbean is pioneering the industry’s fastest, smoothest guest check-in at our new Terminal A. Expedited Arrival will allow guests to check-in in just a few steps, hand off their bags and go from “car to bar” in mere minutes, without lines or paperwork to fill out.

CHECK IN BEFORE YOU BOARD

• Please complete your check-in at least 24 hours before your sailing to skip the counter.
• For the best experience, download the free Royal Caribbean International app, available on Google Play and the App store. You’ll be able to check-in and access your SetSail Pass on your mobile device.
• Otherwise, you can check-in and print your SetSail Pass.
• When you arrive at the terminal, be sure you have your SetSail Pass ready in hand (either printed or on the app) along with the credit card you registered for expenses and required identification documents.

AT THE TERMINAL

• If you’re parking at Terminal A, agents will be in the parking garage to receive your luggage and review your documents.
• If you’re taking a taxi or using a ride sharing service, agents will be awaiting you at the drop off area.
• In both cases, after your documents are reviewed, you’ll proceed onto the ship.

CHECK-IN ON SITE

• Didn’t get to complete check-in or forgot your printouts? You’ll head to the check-in desk and our agents will take care of you. But for the quickest experience, we recommend you check-in at least 24 hours before your sailing.

And no new Covid vaccination card info is included.  Maybe in the next couple weeks it will be adjusted.

[BecciBoo]

I really think all this detailed speculation is much ado about nothing.  Does no good to second guess RCCL.  I'm waiting till someone reports from the first sailing.  Too much was speculated upon weeks ago that never panned out and changes are coming every 2 or 3 days?......nope, I won't formulate  opinion until I hear it from a cruiser.  Or it's emailed to me from RCCL.

Edited May 27, 2021 by BecciBoo

[BecciBoo]

49 minutes ago, dswallow said:

 

Many of the seat belt laws came into being claiming to assist making insurance more affordable (for everybody) by reducing injuries and deaths in accidents, not just saving the life of the wearer.

Yes, but only for someone wearing them, not other people in others cars etc....which is what I said.  Just because you neglect to wear one doesn't mean you are endangering others...don't put another meaning entirely to my post...🙄

[harkinmr]

1 hour ago, orville99 said:

You simply don't connect the dots...DW and I are fully vaccinated. We arrive at the terminal in PC to board our next cruise. The agent states that per the CDC's CSO rules, they have to test us for covid unless we are vaccinated, but they can't require us to show them documentation, and then they start to prep the nasal swabs to shove up our noses. We say wait, you can't require documentation, but are you prevented from viewing ours if we voluntarily show it to you. 

 

My take is anyone who doesn't want a swab shoved up their nose will gladly volunteer to show their vaccination records, because under the current rules, those are the only two options the CDC will accept.

Oh for heaven's sake!  Hard to connect those dots and far too complicated and cumbersome for the cruise lines.  Are the cruise lines going to tell you to bring your vaccine card on the down low as an escape route for the test?  What if you don't have your vaccine card?  No boarding?  Test only?  What if the cruise line wants 95% or more passengers vaccinated and that is what they are approved for?  Who is going to manage this super secret process?  Ridiculous!

[3kidsncats]

11 minutes ago, BecciBoo said:

I don't think the new check in protocols are quite ready, we used the app last cruise just to check in but the current web page only has the standard announcement:

 

Royal Caribbean is pioneering the industry’s fastest, smoothest guest check-in at our new Terminal A. Expedited Arrival will allow guests to check-in in just a few steps, hand off their bags and go from “car to bar” in mere minutes, without lines or paperwork to fill out.

CHECK IN BEFORE YOU BOARD

• Please complete your check-in at least 24 hours before your sailing to skip the counter.
• For the best experience, download the free Royal Caribbean International app, available on Google Play and the App store. You’ll be able to check-in and access your SetSail Pass on your mobile device.
• Otherwise, you can check-in and print your SetSail Pass.
• When you arrive at the terminal, be sure you have your SetSail Pass ready in hand (either printed or on the app) along with the credit card you registered for expenses and required identification documents.

AT THE TERMINAL

• If you’re parking at Terminal A, agents will be in the parking garage to receive your luggage and review your documents.
• If you’re taking a taxi or using a ride sharing service, agents will be awaiting you at the drop off area.
• In both cases, after your documents are reviewed, you’ll proceed onto the ship.

CHECK-IN ON SITE

• Didn’t get to complete check-in or forgot your printouts? You’ll head to the check-in desk and our agents will take care of you. But for the quickest experience, we recommend you check-in at least 24 hours before your sailing.

And no new Covid vaccination card info is included.  Maybe in the next couple weeks it will be adjusted.

I agree — it pretty much has to be adjusted in the next few weeks so the June 12 peeps can check in.  At least our cruise is far enough out still that I’m not anxious about it, yet. 

[BecciBoo]

1 hour ago, Blauelini said:

Thus RCCL has elected to do test cruises (every single ship will have to do them) and sail under the CSO's stricter guidelines. Thus the no mask, no social distancing changes from yesterday will not apply to Royal cruises. Strict mask wearing,  no self serve buffets and social distancing, limited capacities for onboard events will be in full effect for a long time. They are really screwing every vaxxed person that cruises without children. 

I think this whole supposition is gobbledygook.  I don't read that into what Fain said at all, they will require the vaccinations and those with kids who cross over the percentage will not cruise...that's how I see it.  And like Mauraoel said I don't care either.  Endless speculation is worthless when it finally doesn't materialize.  Either way, we are sailing in September.