Dogs

[Mary229]

2 hours ago, Kay S said:

Not to argue with you, but can you define an "unprovoked encounter"?  Like getting bit or licked?

The examples I have read on the HAL forum include @Haljo1935 experience, dogs using the elevator as a bathroom, dogs eating in public dining areas and so on. 

[rbelshaw]

1 hour ago, LSEA said:

"We can take him to Ikea!"  My first thought was why the hell would your dog want to go to Ikea.

That's easy - meatballs.

[TiogaCruiser]

Personally I’m a dog person to the core, but I would fully support a Federals law requiring Service Dogs to be officially certified. That should make it harder for cheaters. 
 

Unlike many on this thread, and for the person several pages back who voiced concerns that HAL is known for lots of dogs, I’ve never seen any dogs on the sailings I’ve been on. So I really wonder just how common they are. 

 

I do occasionally take my pooch to public places that allow pets, for socialization. We have several businesses, such as Home Depot and some restaurants where pets are welcome. I would never try to pass him off as a service dog. (However, HE does demand service, and acts like we’re his butler and/or valet.)

 

 

[HappyInVan]

I remember a bad accident that occurred to my father when he was a senior. His little dog tripped him. His quality of life declined dramatically in his final years. Of course, I don't blame my father's dog. It had never been trained.

 

I support the ban on pets onboard a ship, unless they remain in a kennel. Safety should be a concern where there are children and frail seniors.

 

What is a well trained dog? On command, the dog follows its master closely. Not interacting with other dogs or strangers. Not pulling its master along on a leash.

 

What is a well trained service dog? It patiently leads its blind master. A medical dog pays 100% attention to its master. Not rush at strangers for attention.

 

I've seen people walking their dog on the promenade deck. This were not well trained dog. I doubt that it was trained to be a handicap dog.

 

[oakridger]

It's all about behavior.  The dog. The owner.

 

[Wehwalt]

6 hours ago, oakridger said:

It's all about behavior.  The dog. The owner.

 

And it tends to be exhibited everywhere they go. No need to follow, the show is coming to you.

[Ipeeinthepools]

It would be interesting if there is someone with a service dog that has sailed on HAL would describe the process that is required to bring a service dog on a cruise.  As I read the FAQ there is a pre-authorization process that is required to sail with a service dog.  It would be interesting to know what they are asked about the service dog and if there is any documentation of the dog's skills.  My guess is that the people that bring the fake service dogs on-board the ship simply lie during this pre-authorization process and are not challenged at the port during the boarding process or onboard during the cruise. 

[Wehwalt]

18 hours ago, Khlela said:

Their comment was pretty clear. If you were to continually follow someone around a ship it absolutely can be considered harassment and the person being followed could try to pursue legal action if they wanted. If someone was following me, not matter the reason, I would feel scared and threatened and likely immediately go to cruise staff explaining it as such. I am certain the cruise ship would not side with the individual who is making assumptions and wanting to follow someone around. 
 

No one is following anyone around. That was something invented by one poster and used to label anyone who disagreed with them, even changing their post after they have been replied to. You and another poster have somewhat gleefully leapt upon what no one ever proposed to do. Check the thread. It's something invented by people who have taken a most definite position in this thread. And that position is not mine.

 

I welcome well-informed discussion based on the law as it applies to cruise ships, as we were given by a greatly respected cruiser much earlier in this thread. Instead, we are given posts by some here which don't really seem intended to inform, but to disinform, not to forward the debate but to shut it down, posts in anger, not in sense. Too bad.

Edited April 12 by Wehwalt

[3rdGenCunarder]

12 hours ago, HappyInVan said:

What is a well trained dog? On command, the dog follows its master closely. Not interacting with other dogs or strangers. Not pulling its master along on a leash.

 

What is a well trained service dog? It patiently leads its blind master. A medical dog pays 100% attention to its master. Not rush at strangers for attention.

 

Someone who trains service dogs posted several pages back. I wish he/she would come back and explain what the training entails. Obviously, it's to do whatever the service is. But, in addition, is the dog given basic obedience training?

 

Another poster said that you can't be sure because maybe it's a service dog that wasn't well trained by its owner in basic behavior. I always thought the training for a service dog included basic behavior. Certainly, any service dogs I have met were well behaved. 

 

And of course, let's not forget that training a dog is about training the owner as much if not more than training the dog. 

[TRLD]

40 minutes ago, 3rdGenCunarder said:

 

Someone who trains service dogs posted several pages back. I wish he/she would come back and explain what the training entails. Obviously, it's to do whatever the service is. But, in addition, is the dog given basic obedience training?

 

Another poster said that you can't be sure because maybe it's a service dog that wasn't well trained by its owner in basic behavior. I always thought the training for a service dog included basic behavior. Certainly, any service dogs I have met were well behaved. 

 

And of course, let's not forget that training a dog is about training the owner as much if not more than training the dog. 

Certainly proper training involves obedience training. It involves far more than basic obedience. It also includes making sure that the dog can handle diverse environments without becoming distracted or easily frightened. The group i.support that provides service animals for veterans takes a great deal of time working with the dogs prior to introduction, as well as after to make sure that the dog not only performs correctly, but that it is a good fit and a good home for the dog.

 

The problem is the way the law is written. The law does not require that a service dog be trained by a professional. As such  if someone who has been diagnosed with a condition  for which a service dog would be appropriate could train their own dog, no matter how poorly, and legally fit the description of a valid service animal under the law. That is what cruise lines and other businesses have to deal with.

 

Different situation if the law were changed to require formal training by an certified trainer or organization (of course then the question would be who would certify the trainers) and require documentation to be a valid service dog (again the question would be what documentation and who approves or generates it. If it was just ones doctor saying that they one had a condition where a service dog was applicable, such as with a handicap placard, by itself  it would not do much. Some doctors will sign for a placard for pretty much anyone that asks for one)

 

Unfortunately the laws language of must be individually trained, is not the same as properly trained.

Edited April 12 by TRLD

[TRLD]

A couple of links that gives an idea of what the law allows or does not allow

 

https://www.ada.gov/resources/service-animals-2010-requirements/

 

https://www.ada.gov/topics/service-animals/#:~:text=Service animals are not%3A,through a professional training program

 

 if anyone is interested in making sure that there are more properly trained service dogs for veterans vetdogs.org does very good work.

 

I tend to volunteer and support a local organization in my area that also works with service dogs for veterans. Vetdogs.org is on the national level and they do a good job.

 

As far as keeping fakes off cruise lines write your congressman or woman to tighten up the language concerning training and documentation. A change in the law is about the only thing that will.

Edited April 12 by TRLD

[Khlela]

3 hours ago, Wehwalt said:

No one is following anyone around. That was something invented by one poster and used to label anyone who disagreed with them, even changing their post after they have been replied to.

Ok, it seems you are confused, I was trying to clarify. Here you go:

- A poster mentioned following someone around to collect evidence
- Someone else mentioned that would be harrassment and could cause legal issues
- You asked for facts/refrences on what "legal issues" were
- I explained that this poster was specifically addressing the post stating following around someone to collect evidence. 

  

3 hours ago, Wehwalt said:

You and another poster have somewhat gleefully leapt upon what no one ever proposed to do.

Please explain what I was "gleeful" about. I'm not sure what you think I did here. But you are really making a stretch. I simply offered an explaination that seems to really upset you and I'm truly not sure why

 

Edited April 12 by Khlela

[durangoscots]

This conversation is getting out of hand. I have seen dogs on 3 cruises. One was obviously a guide dog for the blind.... well trained, well mannered. The second I suspect was not a service dog for that particular owner. As I understand she had been a service dog for the man's deceased wife. I do not think it was currently functioning as a service dogs because 1) he let it run around in the Crow's Nest and 2) he did an all day trip ashore where the dog could not go and left the dog on the ship. The third was treated as a pet but the owner did not let it run loose and as far as I know there were no incidents. And, it is possible it was a home trained alert dog of some sort. But it often was not with them being left in a crate in the cabin. I have no idea what kind of papers were filled out .... dog #2 did have some sort of international doggie passport. This is a very complicated issue and not easily solved. The people who need those dogs should able to go places with them although of course some destinations will not let them disembark.  The behavior of the dog on the ship is a real issue. By the way.... even a service dog can be banned from someplace if it misbehaves. More likely from a home trained dog than a professionally trained one.

 

I have worked with service dogs in training.... I have two very well trained pets. Would take them on a cruise. Nope. I would spend all my time worrying about my dog and not enjoying the cruise.

 

Susan

Edited April 12 by durangoscots

[HappyInVan]

1 hour ago, TRLD said:

Certainly proper training involves obedience training. It involves far more than basic obedience. It also includes making sure that the dog can handle diverse environments without becoming distracted or easily frightened. The group i.support that provides service animals for veterans takes a great deal of time working with the dogs prior to introduction, as well as after to make sure that the dog not only performs correctly, but that it is a good fit and a good home for the dog.

 

 

That is the most essential part of dog ownership. The professional assesses the service dog and its fit with a potential master.

 

Dogs (unlike cats) are truly social creatures. They belong in a pack. Therefore, does the potential master live with a family with kids and other dogs. Is the master a social person living in a retirement community with many friends.

 

A service dog is not a tool like a wheelchair. It has emotional needs that go far beyond food and shelter. Problematic dogs usually mean that they are undergoing trauma. Not the dog's fault.

 

Back on topic. The ship's officers are responsible for security. In my mind, that means that they need to screen the validity of service dogs. There's good reasons why pets are banned on a ship.

 

Inevitably, there will be misbehaving animals onboard, particularly among the dogs self-trained by a master. Pax have to a part to play. Report the incidents to the ship. Its up to the senior officers to decide what to do. That's why they're paid the big bucks.

 

Inevitably, some dogs don't travel well among strangers in a stressful environment. Perhaps, the owner should be made aware of the issue? The welfare of animals is everyone's responsibility. That's why there are cruelty laws in our society.

 

 

 

[3rdGenCunarder]

2 hours ago, TRLD said:

Certainly proper training involves obedience training. It involves far more than basic obedience. It also includes making sure that the dog can handle diverse environments without becoming distracted or easily frightened. The group i.support that provides service animals for veterans takes a great deal of time working with the dogs prior to introduction, as well as after to make sure that the dog not only performs correctly, but that it is a good fit and a good home for the dog.

 

 

This is how it should be. Seeing Eye is in Morristown NJ, and when I go there, I often see trainers walking dogs through the town, practicing navigating traffic lights (and traffic around the Green in Morristown takes a lot of navigating!), and learning to deal with distractions. Good for you for working with a training group. Properly trained service dogs are amazing. 

[Wehwalt]

A question to those who may know--what happens to service dogs in the event of an evacuation?

[Destiny0315]

14 minutes ago, Wehwalt said:

A question to those who may know--what happens to service dogs in the event of an evacuation?

If they're Pugs they will be escorted to one of these... 😉

[Destiny0315]

49 minutes ago, Wehwalt said:

A question to those who may know--what happens to service dogs in the event of an evacuation?

In all seriousness, my guess is that in a real evacuation many of the issues that have been discussed in here for days now about service dog laws and protocols might be amplified to a point well beyond what has been talked about here and who knows what would happen. In saying that I think we should all hope to never have to experience such an event on a cruise ship.

Edited April 12 by Destiny0315

[chengkp75]

49 minutes ago, Wehwalt said:

A question to those who may know--what happens to service dogs in the event of an evacuation?

As I've stated before, the ADA says that a service dog is to be treated just like any other medical device, like a wheelchair.  What happens to a wheelchair in a lifeboat?

[Kay S]

34 minutes ago, chengkp75 said:

As I've stated before, the ADA says that a service dog is to be treated just like any other medical device, like a wheelchair.  What happens to a wheelchair in a lifeboat?

Again, thanks for the facts.

 

I have realized by following this thread that I live a charmed life.  I have never (in close to 40 cruises) had a bad dog encounter.  Indeed, I think I remember maybe a total of five valid service dogs on ships (and I never questioned their status.)  I have never

 

• seen or stepped on dog poop in an elevator (or elsewhere)
• slipped on or seen/smelled dog pee on the Lido deck (or elsewhere)
• been infested with fleas
• had a dog bark at me in my cabin (no barking anytime, anywhere, in fact)
• been bitten by a dog
• been licked by a dog
• been asked for treats under the table (by a dog)
• seen a stroller with other than a human in it
• been squeezed out by a dog on a life boat
• nor have I ever felt the need to question a stranger about a dog's bona fides.

 

This thread has opened my eyes to my extraordinarily good fortune. Thank you.

Edited April 12 by Kay S

[TRLD]

43 minutes ago, Kay S said:

Again, thanks for the facts.

 

I have realized by following this thread that I live a charmed life.  I have never (in close to 40 cruises) had a bad dog encounter.  Indeed, I think I remember maybe a total of five valid service dogs on ships (and I never questioned their status.)  I have never

 

• seen or stepped on dog poop in an elevator (or elsewhere)
• slipped on or seen/smelled dog pee on the Lido deck (or elsewhere)
• been infested with fleas
• had a dog bark at me in my cabin (no barking anytime, anywhere, in fact)
• been bitten by a dog
• been licked by a dog
• been asked for treats under the table (by a dog)
• seen a stroller with other than a human in it
• been squeezed out by a dog on a life boat
• nor have I ever felt the need to question a stranger about a dog's bona fides.

 

This thread has opened my eyes to my extraordinarily good fortune. Thank you.

I have, just not on a cruise ship. One major mess in Athens Airport as droppings tracked all over airport by passengers and wheeled luggage.

Edited April 12 by TRLD

[Bemidji Ty]

I've experienced 3 out of nine, recently.  Those related to bodily functions and sounds.  Probably the most egregious event was a couple who brought their dog into the MDR in a stroller and sat   at a table very near ours.  At first, I thought they were bringing in a newborn or infant because of their demeanor.  A bark soon dispelled that assumption as did a semi-regular yipping.  The proud couple encouraged others including waitstaff to interact with their precious bundle.  We quickly decided to try and ignore them with some success.  We were glad that the waitstaff who did physically interact their dog was not serving our food.

 

Cheers.

Edited April 12 by Bemidji Ty
Govt regulations

[Kay S]

23 minutes ago, TRLD said:

I have, just not on a cruise ship. One major mess in Athens Airport as droppings tracked all over airport by passengers and wheeled luggage.

I was referring to on the cruise ship since that seems to be the theme here--rampant dog problems on board.  Outside of cruising, of course I have seen dog poop, etc. but that was not my point.  I lead a charmed cruisising life.

[cccole]

I went back to the OPs original statement.  It was not about people having horrendous encounters with dogs on cruise ships but the presence of non service dogs on cruise ships.  The only way a non service dog is on a cruise ship is most probably the owner lied.  Many of us would love to bring our dog(s) on a cruise ship, but we are not going to lie to do it.

 

At least one person questioned posters who observed non service dogs and asked for specific examples of how they knew it was not a service dog.  Several examples were provided.  It doesn't mean that all of us have experienced any of those issues.  But when asked, examples were given.  And many have observed adorable, well behaved non service dogs.  We just wish it was our adorable, well behaved non service dog.  It is an insult to the trained service dogs and their owners when people lie to bring their pet to an environment where they are not allowed.  I think HAL should do a better job.  I think someone mentioned that Cunard lets you bring your pet in a kennel and it remains below deck for the entire cruise.  Sounds like an option.

 

JMO, Cherie 

[3rdGenCunarder]

23 minutes ago, cccole said:

I went back to the OPs original statement.  It was not about people having horrendous encounters with dogs on cruise ships but the presence of non service dogs on cruise ships.  The only way a non service dog is on a cruise ship is most probably the owner lied.  Many of us would love to bring our dog(s) on a cruise ship, but we are not going to lie to do it.

 

At least one person questioned posters who observed non service dogs and asked for specific examples of how they knew it was not a service dog.  Several examples were provided.  It doesn't mean that all of us have experienced any of those issues.  But when asked, examples were given.  And many have observed adorable, well behaved non service dogs.  We just wish it was our adorable, well behaved non service dog.  It is an insult to the trained service dogs and their owners when people lie to bring their pet to an environment where they are not allowed.  I think HAL should do a better job.  I think someone mentioned that Cunard lets you bring your pet in a kennel and it remains below deck for the entire cruise.  Sounds like an option.

 

JMO, Cherie 

 

Cunard does have a kennel on Queen Mary 2. I'm not sure about the other Cunard ships. The QM2 kennels are for transatlantics only. I believe it's just cats and dogs. That's all I've seen embarking or disembarking. The service is used mainly by people who are relocating between North America and the UK or Europe. If I had to relocate, I'd want to do that, rather than have a pet in a cage in the hold for such a long flight. 

 

The kennels are at the top, and there is an outside area for excercise. Owners may visit their pets, but the pets are not allowed out and about on the ship. And in answer to the question about abandoning ship, Cunard provides dog and cat life jackets.