wcook Posted July 7 #26 Share Posted July 7 (edited) Giving another cruise line a list of passengers to ban opens the cruise line up to litigation, especially if there is a mistake. I wouldn’t do it. Note that a cruise line has two lists… a list of passengers they have banned, and (assuming a US cruise) a list from DHS similar to the no fly list. Edited July 7 by wcook Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clo Posted July 8 #27 Share Posted July 8 5 hours ago, ldubs said: Interesting. No one would voluntarily sign that. I wonder how they make them sign. Ditto. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
njhorseman Posted July 8 #28 Share Posted July 8 9 hours ago, 1025cruise said: Since the incident happened at sea, on a ship registered in the Bahamas, I would think that Bahamian law would take precedence, but not a lawyer. 2 hours ago, chengkp75 said: A fight on a cruise ship at sea falls under the jurisdiction of the flag state, as has been mentioned, and in this case that would be the Bahamas. For accuracy's sake, from what I read the fight took place on the Carnival Paradise, which I believe is flagged in Panama, not the Bahamas. Panamanian law would apply, not Bahamian law. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Donald Posted July 8 #29 Share Posted July 8 Illegal activity on a cruise ship is very difficult to categorize. Some crimes committed on cruise ships are subject to flag state laws. Some crimes committed on cruise ships are subject to the laws of the previous port. Some crimes committed on cruise ships are subject to the laws of the next scheduled port. The American FBI sometimes - not always - gets involved in crimes committed by / against American Citizens on foreign flag ships. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heidi13 Posted July 8 #30 Share Posted July 8 1 hour ago, Donald said: Illegal activity on a cruise ship is very difficult to categorize. Some crimes committed on cruise ships are subject to flag state laws. Some crimes committed on cruise ships are subject to the laws of the previous port. Some crimes committed on cruise ships are subject to the laws of the next scheduled port. The American FBI sometimes - not always - gets involved in crimes committed by / against American Citizens on foreign flag ships. Responsibility for any activity aboard a ship is clearly laid out in UNCLOS (United Nations Convention on Laws of the Sea). It clearly states that no nation can exercise jurisdiction upon a vessel on the High Seas, unless that vessel is registered with that Flag State. All 160+ nations signatory to this convention must enact these requirements in their local shipping regulations. If any crime is committed in International Waters, it falls under the jurisdiction of the Flag State. If a crime is committed in Territorial Waters, it is normally still the jurisdiction of the Flag State unless, for example, said crime impacts the coastal state, or the Master requests assistance. For crimes in International Waters, the Master would request the assistance of Police at the next port to arrest the culprit and remove from the vessel. The USA is one of only a few Nations that are not signatory to UNCLOS, hence the reason they can enact legislation giving the FBI jurisdiction on a foreign flagged vessel. This would not be possible if the USA was signatory to UNCLOS. 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ldubs Posted July 8 #31 Share Posted July 8 32 minutes ago, Heidi13 said: Responsibility for any activity aboard a ship is clearly laid out in UNCLOS (United Nations Convention on Laws of the Sea). It clearly states that no nation can exercise jurisdiction upon a vessel on the High Seas, unless that vessel is registered with that Flag State. All 160+ nations signatory to this convention must enact these requirements in their local shipping regulations. If any crime is committed in International Waters, it falls under the jurisdiction of the Flag State. If a crime is committed in Territorial Waters, it is normally still the jurisdiction of the Flag State unless, for example, said crime impacts the coastal state, or the Master requests assistance. For crimes in International Waters, the Master would request the assistance of Police at the next port to arrest the culprit and remove from the vessel. The USA is one of only a few Nations that are not signatory to UNCLOS, hence the reason they can enact legislation giving the FBI jurisdiction on a foreign flagged vessel. This would not be possible if the USA was signatory to UNCLOS. Thanks for sharing this. One thing that isn't clear to me. If the authorities at the next port have no jurisdiction, how and for what can they make an arrest? Or are they just escorting them off the ship? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rare ontheweb Posted July 8 #32 Share Posted July 8 11 hours ago, Charles4515 said: I meant other cruise corporations but some here insist that Carnival, Princess, HAL etc are different companies. I don’t agree but that is what some have insisted in different discussions. As far as that is concerned if cruising Carnival is the cruise contract signed with Carnival Corporation or the Carnival subsidiary? I thought you meant other corporations, but I wanted to clarify. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rare ontheweb Posted July 8 #33 Share Posted July 8 7 hours ago, ldubs said: Thanks for sharing this. One thing that isn't clear to me. If the authorities at the next port have no jurisdiction, how and for what can they make an arrest? Or are they just escorting them off the ship? Would it be to hold them for extradition to the flag state? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rare ontheweb Posted July 8 #34 Share Posted July 8 7 hours ago, Heidi13 said: Responsibility for any activity aboard a ship is clearly laid out in UNCLOS (United Nations Convention on Laws of the Sea). It clearly states that no nation can exercise jurisdiction upon a vessel on the High Seas, unless that vessel is registered with that Flag State. All 160+ nations signatory to this convention must enact these requirements in their local shipping regulations. If any crime is committed in International Waters, it falls under the jurisdiction of the Flag State. If a crime is committed in Territorial Waters, it is normally still the jurisdiction of the Flag State unless, for example, said crime impacts the coastal state, or the Master requests assistance. For crimes in International Waters, the Master would request the assistance of Police at the next port to arrest the culprit and remove from the vessel. The USA is one of only a few Nations that are not signatory to UNCLOS, hence the reason they can enact legislation giving the FBI jurisdiction on a foreign flagged vessel. This would not be possible if the USA was signatory to UNCLOS. When you say, "the Master would request the assistance of Police at the next port to arrest the culprit and remove from the vessel", are the police required by the treaty you cited to cooperate with your request? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ldubs Posted July 8 #35 Share Posted July 8 15 hours ago, chengkp75 said: 5. The ship cannot detain you unless they have arrested you for a crime under Bahamian law, but then they will have to turn you over to local law enforcement at the next port, and that jurisdiction would then have to decide to prosecute or not. Just for the sake of discussion, I had a similar question reading @Heidi13's post. Unless the next port is in The Bahamas, why would the Ship have to turn you over to local authorities and how does prosecution happen? For example, an American court isn't going to prosecute someone under Bahamian law. BTW I agree wholeheartedly with your #2 comment. The corporation has no duty to report this to the industry. Doing so would be a poor choice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ldubs Posted July 8 #36 Share Posted July 8 15 hours ago, Charles4515 said: I meant other cruise corporations but some here insist that Carnival, Princess, HAL etc are different companies. I don’t agree but that is what some have insisted in different discussions. As far as that is concerned if cruising Carnival is the cruise contract signed with Carnival Corporation or the Carnival subsidiary? Well, they are all owned by a single corporate entity. Kind of like Jeep, Alpha, Chrysler, Fiat, etc. The passenger contract will be the terms and conditions for that cruise line but I doubt it is literally signed by anyone. I wouldn't be surprised if they all read the same. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ldubs Posted July 8 #37 Share Posted July 8 (edited) 4 hours ago, ontheweb said: Would it be to hold them for extradition to the flag state? Not very likely. Edited July 8 by ldubs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heidi13 Posted July 8 #38 Share Posted July 8 10 hours ago, ldubs said: Thanks for sharing this. One thing that isn't clear to me. If the authorities at the next port have no jurisdiction, how and for what can they make an arrest? Or are they just escorting them off the ship? Although the authorities at the next port have no jurisdiction, the Master and/or the Flag State can request assistance. Unfortunately, I have never dealt with what happens after they are landed ashore and have not been required to research this area when drafting policies & procedures. An example of the Master requesting assistance would be when I completed the Aussie season on SS Oriana. Every 2-weeks we boarded a couple of local Police Officers, who received a complimentary cruise. On the Bridge, we had their cabin number/pagers and called them 24/7 to assist with the numerous incidents we had on board. Any pax arrested were offloaded at the next port. 2 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ldubs Posted July 8 #39 Share Posted July 8 3 minutes ago, Heidi13 said: Although the authorities at the next port have no jurisdiction, the Master and/or the Flag State can request assistance. Unfortunately, I have never dealt with what happens after they are landed ashore and have not been required to research this area when drafting policies & procedures. An example of the Master requesting assistance would be when I completed the Aussie season on SS Oriana. Every 2-weeks we boarded a couple of local Police Officers, who received a complimentary cruise. On the Bridge, we had their cabin number/pagers and called them 24/7 to assist with the numerous incidents we had on board. Any pax arrested were offloaded at the next port. Thanks. I appreciate you circling back. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heidi13 Posted July 8 #40 Share Posted July 8 4 hours ago, ontheweb said: When you say, "the Master would request the assistance of Police at the next port to arrest the culprit and remove from the vessel", are the police required by the treaty you cited to cooperate with your request? Sorry, don't know the legal requirements, but when called, we have always received assistance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sverigecruiser Posted July 8 #41 Share Posted July 8 18 hours ago, chengkp75 said: 3. The "banning" is not a legal document, it is the business owner's right to deny service to anyone they choose to, unless they are a member of a "protected class" under the discrimination laws of the flag state. Can you explain this? Are you saying that someone who is a member of a "protected class" can't be banned but anyone else can? Here in Sweden it's not possible for business owner's to deny service to anyone they choose. I assume that it is because of discrimination laws but all people should be treated equally so they really can't ban anyone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wcook Posted July 8 #42 Share Posted July 8 In the US, a business can’t discriminate against a person *because* they are in a protected class. So I can’t ban people from coming into my restaurant because they are old. I can ban people who support a particular football team, even if they are old. The tricky part is defining exactly what counts as a business. Also, as with all rights in the US there is an implied “without a good reason” exception. If I run a SCUBA excursion business, I can ban people over a certain age if I can show the risk of old people diving outweighs the harm of discrimination. Keep in mind that in the US, the rights of the individual are often held above the rights of other people. Something like Allemansrätten would never fly here. Many states do have open beach laws, but even those can be controversial as nearby landowners sometimes do everything they can to keep people from getting to the beach. Hope that helps, without getting into controversial issues that would get the thread shut down. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rare Mary229 Posted July 8 #43 Share Posted July 8 (edited) 19 hours ago, clo said: Ditto. I would think to escape criminal prosecution (In Response to the question as to why someone would sign the banning document ) Edited July 8 by Mary229 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charles4515 Posted July 8 #44 Share Posted July 8 1 hour ago, Mary229 said: I would think to escape criminal prosecution (In Response to the question as to why someone would sign the banning document ) Or a fine. A lot of people don’t read what they sign. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rare ontheweb Posted July 8 #45 Share Posted July 8 7 hours ago, Heidi13 said: Sorry, don't know the legal requirements, but when called, we have always received assistance. That is good, but as they say for investments, past performance does not guarantee future performance. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MBP&O2/O Posted July 9 #46 Share Posted July 9 It simplifies things if it is a crew member. Back in the day, their documentation was endorsed accordingly. Anything other than VG was rare, but, known in the trade as a Double DR, often referred to as Decline to Report, had a massive effect on future employment. Information shared 🫡. One 3/O I knew never went to sea again! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hernando52 Posted July 9 #47 Share Posted July 9 Recent brawls on Carnival have resulted in these cruise lines banning the involved passengers from travelling on their ships. The latest brawl was Carnival offenders who tore up the buffet area with thrown chairs, etc. on a cruise out of Tampa. These animals now won't be able to cruise on Carnival, but my question is, can they just turn around and book a cruise on NCL? My guess is that lists are not shared....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chengkp75 Posted July 9 #48 Share Posted July 9 Why would Carnival care if a disruptive person booked a cruise on a competitor's ship? Carnival likely shares this with the other lines in the Carnival group, but I think they would enjoy having an NCL cruise disrupted. 1 7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Traveling Man Posted July 9 #49 Share Posted July 9 9 minutes ago, chengkp75 said: Why would Carnival care if a disruptive person booked a cruise on a competitor's ship? Carnival likely shares this with the other lines in the Carnival group, but I think they would enjoy having an NCL cruise disrupted. Bazinga !!! 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hernando52 Posted July 9 #50 Share Posted July 9 25 minutes ago, chengkp75 said: Why would Carnival care if a disruptive person booked a cruise on a competitor's ship? Carnival likely shares this with the other lines in the Carnival group, but I think they would enjoy having an NCL cruise disrupted. You have a valid point!! Hadn't even thought of the competitor aspect of it all Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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