how to ruin a cruise line and

[BKFlowerMound]

I have not been on a HAL cruise (RCI, DCL, CCL..) but not HAL. I am considering taking one, since they have ships departing from NY, not too far from me. it would be a great help if specific examples of how HAL has been "ruined". I have nothing to compare it to, as I've never taken one.

 

I'm probably not the best person to answer this question because I don't think Mr. Ashford could possibly have ruined HAL in his so-far brief tenure. Additionally, I've only been on 2 HAL cruises, though I'm very much looking forward to our 3d one in a couple months on the brand-new Koningsdam -- which is likely Exhibit A in any claim that HAL is on the road to ruin. And the biggest reason why I shouldn't be answering this question is I'm not that big a fan of the way HAL is/was before it was allegedly ruined. But I'm going to give it a shot anyway.

 

To get a better idea of why it's being ruined, you probably need to start with a base-line of what HAL's many fans like about it. In a phrase, HAL has emphasized traditional cruising elegance. Examples of how this has played out are:

 

- The décor is traditional with nautical touches - like brass and dark woods. Fans would call it classy

- HAL ships maintain teak decks and full wrap-around promenades where you can sit on a deck chair

- HAL ships are generally smaller than its competitors and it also has had longer cruises than those competitors

- HAL has more older ships with fewer balcony cabins

- Food has been traditional ocean liner fair with fewer specialty restaurants than most of its competitors and even these are traditional (Steak & Seafood, Pseudo-Italian, Faux-Asian)

- Entertainment has been geared toward the older demographic that HAL attracts (even noticeable on what background muzak is playing on deck and in other public areas). There doesn't tend to be all that much going on at night on a HAL ship

- And then there is the topic that may not be discussed except in the sticky thread at the top, which is also different than most of its competitors

 

So IMHO what you see on HAL ships is a much older average age than what you're probably used to. While some of these much older folks are in the grumpy-old-fart category, most are in the type-of-older-person-that-I-aspire-to-be-category who've lead interesting lives and with whom you could have a great conversation and are fun (when they're awake). The trouble with this group of folks, of course, is that they're dying off. Changes are being made that HAL hopes will lower the average age of cruisers without alienating its core fans. Of course, like with the other cruise lines, some of the changes that are being made might just be revenue enhancing, cost cutting measures disguised as innovations.

 

Even if Mr. Ashford isn't responsible for all of these changes (and he can't be) you can see what direction HAL wants to go by looking at the Koningsdam:

 

- The décor is less traditional with a design theme that is not Nautical

- The wrap-around promenade deck is not wide enough for most HAL traditionalists and it's views are blocked by lifeboats

- There are more "for pay" restaurants

- There are also more no additional charge restaurant options as well

- Cinema is gone replaced by a big screen at the pool

- The passenger laundry facilities are gone (but haven't been built on the last several HAL ships)

- New drinks packages are being introduced (HAL has traditionally had a lenient policy allowing wine to be brought on board that has been tightened and has had cheaper drink prices overall) and some are concerned that this might lead to higher prices overall

- General trend toward monetizing spaces (like the restaurants), a wine mixing concept, etc., with a de-emphasis on spaces like the library

- Formal nights have essentially been eliminated in place of a looser defined "Gala" night, which really isn't anything other than dress up if you want to

 

Couple these changes with the fact that some of the older, smaller ships that many HAL fans love have been retired or are going to be retired and you get these "ruin" threads. The complaints about change are not all that different than what you see on other boards about other lines.

 

I hope folks will correct me if I got HAL wrong here or what the "ruin" is all about.

[RuthC]

I hope folks will correct me if I got HAL wrong here or what the "ruin" is all about.

I think you did a very thorough write-up, with an impartial delivery. Good job.

 

One thing I would add is that in recent years the quality of the food in the dining room, especially dinner, has gone down.

[CruisinHarvey]

BK,

 

Thanks for the post. Although, the Koningsdam had nothing to do with Mr. Ashford. It was before his time, in the design phases. I also agree with RuthC. The food stating down hill a while back.

 

I think HAL has to find a niche. It's current clients are dwindling, as you said. HAL has done little in the past decade, or more, to attract a new customer base. It has continued to offer more of the same to the same folks. Those folks won't be around forever.

 

Without new passengers, Cunard, while small, can book those wanting longer more traditional cruises. Celebrity can handle the 7 to 14 night cruises with the older adult passenger. So, other than the loyal, older, decreasing clients, where do they go to expand their customer base? The Koningsdam, while a small change, surely won't bring a new demographic to the line.

[iancal]

I believe that Carnival Corp definitely wants change at HAL.

 

I can only assume that they brought in Mr. Ashford because they did not feel any member of the then current senior management team was either up to the challenge , promotable to the leadership role, had the vision for the task, or all three.

 

I think they did the right thing in bringing in an outsider as it were.

Edited May 6, 2016 by iancal

[robertmnch]

So, you don't have any specific actions you can relate explaining how Ashford "ruined" Holland?

 

How about this? Can you list specific things that have changed during Ashford's tenure that contributed to "ruining" Holland? For example, when did Ashford take over? What has changed since then? How did these changes resulted in a "ruined" cruise line?

:eek:

 

Have you noticed all of the GROUP CRUISES and telling Passengers they have to eat in the Lido and the Crow's Nest is fully occupied after you worked off your "BUNS" to save enough money to go on the "cruise of a lifetime"! Groups dictating "religions" and getting in your face? NO! Not me! I would rather eat at Joe's Steakhouse anytime than partake of Ashford's plans for HAL!:confused:

[alwaysfrantic]

BK,

 

Thanks for the post. Although, the Koningsdam had nothing to do with Mr. Ashford. It was before his time, in the design phases. I also agree with RuthC. The food stating down hill a while back.

 

I think HAL has to find a niche. It's current clients are dwindling, as you said. HAL has done little in the past decade, or more, to attract a new customer base. It has continued to offer more of the same to the same folks. Those folks won't be around forever.

 

Without new passengers, Cunard, while small, can book those wanting longer more traditional cruises. Celebrity can handle the 7 to 14 night cruises with the older adult passenger. So, other than the loyal, older, decreasing clients, where do they go to expand their customer base? The Koningsdam, while a small change, surely won't bring a new demographic to the line.

 

Unfortunately I think they do have a niche....smokers. Not quite what I'd want to be known for. But it is a steady revenue stream.

[RocketMan275]

:eek:

 

Have you noticed all of the GROUP CRUISES and telling Passengers they have to eat in the Lido and the Crow's Nest is fully occupied after you worked off your "BUNS" to save enough money to go on the "cruise of a lifetime"! Groups dictating "religions" and getting in your face? NO! Not me! I would rather eat at Joe's Steakhouse anytime than partake of Ashford's plans for HAL!:confused:

 

OP started this thread with a rant about how Ashford was ruining Holland. I don't like charters and groups either but you cannot blame Ashford for charters and groups either.

 

Now:

what exactly do you dislike about Ashford's plans for Holland?

what specific actions had Ashford taking that has 'ruined' Holland?

what specific actions should Ashford take to improve Holland?

Edited May 6, 2016 by RocketMan275

[Roz]

There are complaints about charters on virtually all lines - go to the other boards and see what people are posting. That situation isn't unique to HAL, and there are religious groups that charter ships other than HAL's.

 

Roz

[CruisinHarvey]

Can anyone who takes the position that Mr Ashford is bad for this line, please give me a specific change that he's made, to cause your complaints? Just one will work for a start. I think the saying is put up or shut up.

[robertmnch]

Can anyone who takes the position that Mr Ashford is bad for this line, please give me a specific change that he's made, to cause your complaints? Just one will work for a start. I think the saying is put up or shut up.

:confused:

 

In 27 cruises on HAL, I have NEVER run into GROUPS! All of a sudden we are having religious GROUPS shoving their religious philosophy down our throats.

 

If I pay the going Rate for a cruise, I expect to have a run of the ship. I don't want to be relegated to the Lido for Dinner while the GROUP takes over the MDR, 2nd Seating. They take over the Crow's Nest, Swimming Pool, etc. I work hard all year, I get two weeks vacation and all I want is a vacation on HAL and access to ALL of the Venues! I paid for it and expect it!

 

Mr. Ashford signed off on all of these Groups, I beg your pardon?:rolleyes:

 

Mr. Ashford is in the HOT seat, but as a cruise critic follower, other cruise lines can have their religious groups also, but sell them the Charters. I know religious discrimination? If they want to join us, then let them act like all of us...it's called respect...cruise, eat in the MDR, go swimming, see a show, and let us enjoy the cruise we worked so hard for over the past year! I don't think that's very difficult, do you?

Edited May 7, 2016 by robertmnch
Add dialogue!

[sppunk]

:confused:

 

In 27 cruises on HAL, I have NEVER run into GROUPS! All of a sudden we are having religious GROUPS shoving their religious philosophy down our throats.

 

If I pay the going Rate for a cruise, I expect to have a run of the ship. I don't want to be relegated to the Lido for Dinner while the GROUP takes over the MDR, 2nd Seating. They take over the Crow's Nest, Swimming Pool, etc. I work hard all year, I get two weeks vacation and all I want is a vacation on HAL and access to ALL of the Venues! I paid for it and expect it!

 

Mr. Ashford signed off on all of these Groups, I beg your pardon?:rolleyes:

Groups have been around for many, many years. This has zero to do wth the new CEO.

 

They exist on basically every cruise line.

 

Try again.

[SetAnOpenCourse]

If the article mentioned was in fact basically marketing in disguise, my hunch is that "premium" revenue is the goal. And no response on this thread so far constitutes bad news for HAL/Carnival. Praise for the "innovation", or just stirring of the pot, both would help push the perception of change. I question, however, whether the new perception is desired because of a decline in the number of customers. At least one poster here seems intent on beating the drum about an impending doom for HAL (need of new ships, etc.). They might have a relevant point, but please post the total annual passenger counts, to start. IMO, the message of "innovation" is mostly pap for Wall Street.

[sail7seas]

gOOD FOR HIM. he chngeed the company logo, I ha e not forgiven him for that.]a

Edited May 7, 2016 by sail7seas

[sail7seas]

I am fairly certain that Mr. Ashford does not really care how 'popular' he is with the managers or with the staff. He will be goaled on increasing revenue, profit, and customer satisfaction. It is not a popularity contest.

 

His very first responsibility is to HAL shareholders, ie Carnival Corp and Carnival shareholders. Then the customers. After that the employees and the supplies/business partners.

 

In addition to renewing their aging fleet HAL needs to reach out to a whole new cadre of cruisers. People who have moved away from HAL to other lines, people who cruise other lines, and people who have not yet cruised. Lots of challenges for him because I certainly did not think the past management did much of that.

 

Groups have been around for many, many years. This has zero to do wth the new CEO.

 

They exist on basically every cruise line.

 

Try again.

 

 

It6hink mset of us know this.

#Woss, yghrtr likrly wtr ffrert hsswsppy styofkholfrttd. ledeo. Many HAL guessgttgss are sgtockholderds,

[sail7seas]

Thank you for finding placestofarm many ffsg ud off to.farm ous off to.

 

[]

Edited May 7, 2016 by sail7seas

[sail7seas]

The theater standees are adjusting their eyes.

Are you sure they're didn't just finish dinner? ATD allows seating later than traditional dining. Also events overlap.

 

Isn't it boorish to pick out the faults of others?(goodp oint) p[/QUOTe]

Sorry my typos are bothering you thankds for pointing it out. My hand is bothering meand I am having hard time typingg

Edited May 8, 2016 by Host Walt

[Host Walt]

The preceding post was copied from another forum.

[Stakeout]

after starting this thread got jumped on by a bunch on here.. all I can say is.. 'I rest my case'.... why???...just go to the Roll Call for the Amsterdam World Voyage 2018 and see the NEGATIVE changes being made-- believe they are on pages 42 or 43.. and it's only going to get worse for the rest of the itineraries not just Grand Voyages.. cutting budgets... cutting perks..all in the master plan.. so all you people who like the new changes..glad you do... you have no idea what's going on..

[lais]

Whoops

Edited October 6, 2016 by lais

[lais]

Whoops!

[Cqis]

Stakeout;

 

How many people do you manage in your company?

[ski ww]

Don't know if he made things worse or not. Some times change for the sake of change is not good. The old saying " if it's not broken don't fix it" I understand that it's a business that it is there to make money which is the bottom line. So anything to increase revenue is what they're going for. I do notice that there is more of this nickel & dime stuff. Don't like what was done with the HAL logo, the old sail ship connected the company from the early history to the present.

Allan

[Old As Dirt Mom]

after starting this thread got jumped on by a bunch on here.. all I can say is.. 'I rest my case'.... why???...just go to the Roll Call for the Amsterdam World Voyage 2018 and see the NEGATIVE changes being made-- believe they are on pages 42 or 43.. and it's only going to get worse for the rest of the itineraries not just Grand Voyages.. cutting budgets... cutting perks..all in the master plan.. so all you people who like the new changes..glad you do... you have no idea what's going on..

 

 

If you are referring to the changes below, then yes, they have been discussed here in this forum to a certain extent in the threads linked below:

 

HOLLAND AMERICA LINE

For the remainder of 2016, approximately 20 Guest Staff positions remain un-filled. We will work diligently to reach out and fill these cruises as quickly as possible. No further emails are required as we have all preferences well-noted.

 

Each year we review our programming needs. For 2017, Holland America Line will make some significant changes to the Guest Staff Program, as follows:

• The Dance Host & Dance Instructor Programs will be discontinued

• Ministers will be placed on specific holiday cruises only

• Rabbis and Cantors will be placed on specific holiday cruises only

• Bridge Instructors will be placed on cruises of 30 days or more

• Arts & Crafts Instructors and Watercolor Instructors will be placed only on Grand World Voyages

• Tai Chi Instructors will be placed on specific itineraries in Asia when the Instructor also has a minimum of additional regional offerings/areas of expertise to share (such as language lessons, Mah Jongg, culinary expertise, regional art & history presentations, etc.)

For those positions that we will continue to fill, sailing will be by invitation only. Further, cruises will be offered at no charge ($0.00). As in the past, all travel expenses will still be the responsibility of each Guest Staff to get yourselves to and from the ship.

 

 

 

http://boards.cruisecritic.com/showthread.php?t=2407948

 

http://boards.cruisecritic.com/showthread.php?t=2409398

[3rdGenCunarder]

If you are referring to the changes below, then yes, they have been discussed here in this forum to a certain extent in the threads linked below:

 

HOLLAND AMERICA LINE

For the remainder of 2016, approximately 20 Guest Staff positions remain un-filled. We will work diligently to reach out and fill these cruises as quickly as possible. No further emails are required as we have all preferences well-noted.

 

Each year we review our programming needs. For 2017, Holland America Line will make some significant changes to the Guest Staff Program, as follows:

• The Dance Host & Dance Instructor Programs will be discontinued

• Ministers will be placed on specific holiday cruises only

• Rabbis and Cantors will be placed on specific holiday cruises only

• Bridge Instructors will be placed on cruises of 30 days or more

• Arts & Crafts Instructors and Watercolor Instructors will be placed only on Grand World Voyages

• Tai Chi Instructors will be placed on specific itineraries in Asia when the Instructor also has a minimum of additional regional offerings/areas of expertise to share (such as language lessons, Mah Jongg, culinary expertise, regional art & history presentations, etc.)

For those positions that we will continue to fill, sailing will be by invitation only. Further, cruises will be offered at no charge ($0.00). As in the past, all travel expenses will still be the responsibility of each Guest Staff to get yourselves to and from the ship.

 

 

 

http://boards.cruisecritic.com/showthread.php?t=2407948

 

http://boards.cruisecritic.com/showthread.php?t=2409398

 

Somehow I've missed this thread, but I have to comment on the Tai Chi thing. Does anyone else think it's funny that in order to get the gig teaching Tai Chi, he/she must also be able to do cooking classes (does the Culinary Center have woks???) and teach Mah Jongg?????

[wander]

Re: Tai Chi Instructors - it does NOT say they have to do all of them, just something else in addition to Tai Chi. I can readily understand this. Line on the World Cruise they get a basically cruise experience in exchange for working 1-2 hours per sea day. I have often wondered about this on long cruises with the instructors - seemed line an unusually sweet deal to me. Most on like the 70 dayish Asis Pacific cruises and the World Cruise while the sessions were very popular with some passengers (sometimes as many as 75 in the once a day 1 hour classes when I was attending, that is still a relatively small (7 or 8%) percentage of the onboard passengers.

 

I do not like to see their (Tai Chi instructors) elimination, but from a what you get for what you pay it was probably a big looser. Keeping them busy several other hours a day (and only sea days that is) could be a valid management decision. Just my thoughts - many will not agree.

 

While on the WC 2018 roll call board - there certainly has some disgruntment about the changes, so far I have not seen anyone say they were cancelling their plans or even threatening to cancel. (I have not read the thread the past two hours.) I personally am still thinking about the cruise. Nothing in it would impact my decision at this time. (Now if I loved to ballroom dance - the elimination of the dance hosts would bother me - but I don't do ballroom.)